N2002: Daytona Day, Night, Cloudy - Why is Day faster than Night..

Racing at Daytona can give interesting results.. It appears that adding cloudy at night actually slows you down where it usually speeds you up.. Now why would the night times be slower... Don Daytona Day Position Name Country Date Lap time 1 Alex Spain 2002-04-13 00:45.568 2 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-29 00:45.714 3 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-06 00:45.787 4 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-14 00:45.834 5 Dave Ruskey United States 2002-04-30 00:45.839 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-04-23 00:45.846 7 kyle morse United States 2002-05-09 00:46.095 Daytona Night... Position Name Country Date Lap time 1 John Hilsman United States 2002-04-06 00:46.090 2 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-06 00:46.141 3 kyle morse United States 2002-03-25 00:46.144 4 Lars Kl�ck Germany 2002-05-07 00:46.221 5 Luca Ceretti Italy 2002-04-26 00:46.413 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-02-24 00:46.419 7 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-12 00:46.473 8 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-05 00:46.526

The night races are typically as much as 40 degrees hotter than the day. July vs. Feb. It's the temp that makes the most difference, cloud cover is faster than clear as well. Chad "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rlQE8.324714$[email hidden]...

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> Racing at Daytona can give interesting results.. It appears that adding > cloudy at night actually slows you down where it usually speeds you up.. > Now why would the night times be slower... > > > Don > > Daytona Day > > Position Name Country Date Lap time > 1 Alex Spain 2002-04-13 00:45.568 > 2 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-29 00:45.714 > 3 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-06 00:45.787 > 4 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-14 00:45.834 > 5 Dave Ruskey United States 2002-04-30 00:45.839 > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-04-23 00:45.846 > 7 kyle morse United States 2002-05-09 00:46.095 > > > Daytona Night... > Position Name Country Date Lap time > 1 John Hilsman United States 2002-04-06 00:46.090 > 2 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-06 00:46.141 > 3 kyle morse United States 2002-03-25 00:46.144 > 4 Lars Kl�ck Germany 2002-05-07 00:46.221 > 5 Luca Ceretti Italy 2002-04-26 00:46.413 > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-02-24 00:46.419 > 7 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-12 00:46.473 > 8 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-05 00:46.526 > > >

No doubt - I raced one the other day at 101F! Night time yes - but July in Florida too! Cooler air means you go faster. A terrible fate - hung out on in a plate race by yourself! Death by boredom! "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rlQE8.324714$[email hidden]...

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> Racing at Daytona can give interesting results.. It appears that adding > cloudy at night actually slows you down where it usually speeds you up.. > Now why would the night times be slower... > > > Don > > Daytona Day > > Position Name Country Date Lap time > 1 Alex Spain 2002-04-13 00:45.568 > 2 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-29 00:45.714 > 3 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-06 00:45.787 > 4 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-14 00:45.834 > 5 Dave Ruskey United States 2002-04-30 00:45.839 > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-04-23 00:45.846 > 7 kyle morse United States 2002-05-09 00:46.095 > > > Daytona Night... > Position Name Country Date Lap time > 1 John Hilsman United States 2002-04-06 00:46.090 > 2 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-06 00:46.141 > 3 kyle morse United States 2002-03-25 00:46.144 > 4 Lars Kl�ck Germany 2002-05-07 00:46.221 > 5 Luca Ceretti Italy 2002-04-26 00:46.413 > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-02-24 00:46.419 > 7 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-12 00:46.473 > 8 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-05 00:46.526 > > >

I have found that true except at Daytona.. cloudy night is slower.. dw "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:C7RE8.45786$[email hidden]... > The night races are typically as much as 40 degrees hotter than the day. > July vs. Feb. It's the temp that makes the most difference, cloud coveris

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> faster than clear as well. > > Chad > > "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:rlQE8.324714$[email hidden]... > > Racing at Daytona can give interesting results.. It appears that adding > > cloudy at night actually slows you down where it usually speeds you up.. > > Now why would the night times be slower... > > > > > > Don > > > > Daytona Day > > > > Position Name Country Date Lap time > > 1 Alex Spain 2002-04-13 00:45.568 > > 2 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-29 00:45.714 > > 3 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-06 00:45.787 > > 4 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-14 00:45.834 > > 5 Dave Ruskey United States 2002-04-30 00:45.839 > > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-04-23 00:45.846 > > 7 kyle morse United States 2002-05-09 00:46.095 > > > > > > Daytona Night... > > Position Name Country Date Lap time > > 1 John Hilsman United States 2002-04-06 00:46.090 > > 2 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-06 00:46.141 > > 3 kyle morse United States 2002-03-25 00:46.144 > > 4 Lars Kl�ck Germany 2002-05-07 00:46.221 > > 5 Luca Ceretti Italy 2002-04-26 00:46.413 > > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-02-24 00:46.419 > > 7 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-12 00:46.473 > > 8 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-05 00:46.526 > > > > > > > > >

>"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote > Racing at Daytona can give interesting results.. It appears that adding > cloudy at night actually slows you down where it usually speeds you up.. > Now why would the night times be slower... Wow gee not again Don. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Clear day = hot. Cloudy day = warm and humid. Clear night = warm. Cloudy night = hot and humid. At least that's the way I would think it works, in theory. Clouds would cause nighttime to be warmer because of the heat being trapped between the earth and the cloud layer IIRC. Clouds at night would definitely not cool the track surface the way they do during the day - during the day the track surface would be cooler because of the lack of sun, but that's not an issue at night. Jason "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<TXSE8.324783$[email hidden]>...

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> I have found that true except at Daytona.. cloudy night is slower.. > > dw > > > > "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:C7RE8.45786$[email hidden]... > > The night races are typically as much as 40 degrees hotter than the day. > > July vs. Feb. It's the temp that makes the most difference, cloud cover > is > > faster than clear as well. > > > > Chad > > > > "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:rlQE8.324714$[email hidden]... > > > Racing at Daytona can give interesting results.. It appears that adding > > > cloudy at night actually slows you down where it usually speeds you up.. > > > Now why would the night times be slower... > > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > Daytona Day > > > > > > Position Name Country Date Lap time > > > 1 Alex Spain 2002-04-13 00:45.568 > > > 2 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-29 00:45.714 > > > 3 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-06 00:45.787 > > > 4 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-14 00:45.834 > > > 5 Dave Ruskey United States 2002-04-30 00:45.839 > > > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-04-23 00:45.846 > > > 7 kyle morse United States 2002-05-09 00:46.095 > > > > > > > > > Daytona Night... > > > Position Name Country Date Lap time > > > 1 John Hilsman United States 2002-04-06 00:46.090 > > > 2 Don Wilshe United States 2002-05-06 00:46.141 > > > 3 kyle morse United States 2002-03-25 00:46.144 > > > 4 Lars Kl�ck Germany 2002-05-07 00:46.221 > > > 5 Luca Ceretti Italy 2002-04-26 00:46.413 > > > 6 Rusted Walleye United States 2002-02-24 00:46.419 > > > 7 Philippe Lebel France 2002-05-12 00:46.473 > > > 8 Alan C. Daly United Kingdom 2002-04-05 00:46.526 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qiXE8.19583$[email hidden]...

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> >"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Racing at Daytona can give interesting results.. It appears that adding > > cloudy at night actually slows you down where it usually speeds you up.. > > Now why would the night times be slower... > > > Wow gee not again Don. >

Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it, they already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. Don Burnette

Boy your Papyrus guys are touchy... I felt it had to be explained, but you already know that.. its a great game.. Why not make it better.. DW > > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. > Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it,they

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> already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. > > Don Burnette > > > >

Excuse me Mr. Papyrus for even talking about another game.. some people dont have there heads buried brown and like to reach out.. dw I think you agree that N2002 is desparate for another patch or 2.. like we never got a patch from papyrus.. You would think after NASCAR 1, 2, 3, 4 and 2002 that we wouldnt have the same bugs from nascar 1.... dw > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. > Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it,they

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> already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. > > Don Burnette > > > >

LOL, no one can bring out the Papy-Nazi's faster than Don Wilshe! DW how dare you raise issue's about a game! Being right doesn't justify this outrage. It will soon be followed by personal insults directed against you in order to quiet your misguided motives. Whoops, they have already started. :-) Of course this diversion on the Papy-Nazi's part alleviates the requirement to answer the question. I can already hear the giant sucking sound in response. :-) Pete "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ay_E8.1830$[email hidden]... > > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. > Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it,they > already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. > > Don Burnette > > >

I'm just a average Joe simracer, who happens to favor Nascar racing sims. I mean really, what does it matter if the speed at certain temp/cloud/time of day conditions might seem off a little? How many people would even notice something like that? It doesn't change the racing aspect, both online or offline. The racing is still fantastic, I get the same rush whether I go 5 mph faster or slower because of certain weather conditions. I only like to reply to your critiques because I only see you critique Papy sims, guess that's why I come across as a Papy guy to you, and this critique seemed so trivial to me. Now fixing the pace car bug at Martinsville, now that is something I would like to see addressed. Don Burnette "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NP_E8.501680$[email hidden]... > > Boy your Papyrus guys are touchy... I felt it had to be explained, butyou

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> already know that.. its a great game.. Why not make it better.. > > DW > > > > > > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. > > Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it, > they > > already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > > > >

Oh yes, I definitely agree N2002 needs another patch, no doubt - and I would like to see one quickly to address the pace car bug at Marty. I just never would have thought about speeds being off a little between actual speeds at night or day, to me it has no affect on the quality of my racing whether online or offline. Don Burnette "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JS_E8.501684$[email hidden]...

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> > Excuse me Mr. Papyrus for even talking about another game.. some people > dont have there heads buried brown and like to reach out.. > > dw > > I think you agree that N2002 is desparate for another patch or 2.. like > we never got a patch from papyrus.. You would think after > NASCAR 1, 2, 3, 4 and 2002 that we wouldnt have the same > bugs from nascar 1.... > > dw > > > > > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. > > Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it, > they > > already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > > > >

Not from me, I don't personally insult.. I would just like to see larger issues addressed, ones that effect the actual quality of the racing itself. Like the Marty pace car bug. I also wish the collision detection was a little more forgiving for online racing, while N4 and N2002 are about as realistic as you can get I would imagine in the physics department, it can sure make for some frustrating online racing. You just can't race as close online as we should be able to, the slightest twitch and you've sent someone spinning. It's rare you can make slight contact side by side without someone paying a price, even going down the straights. Don Burnette "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Nj0F8.50110$[email hidden]... > LOL, no one can bring out the Papy-Nazi's faster than Don Wilshe! > DW how dare you raise issue's about a game! Being right doesn't justify > this outrage. It will soon be followed by personal insults directedagainst

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> you in order to quiet your misguided motives. Whoops, they have already > started. :-) > Of course this diversion on the Papy-Nazi's part alleviates the > requirement > to answer the question. > I can already hear the giant sucking sound in response. :-) > > Pete > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Ay_E8.1830$[email hidden]... > > > > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. > > Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it, > they > > already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > >

Ha Tell the truth man.. You are and were a Papyrus Beta tester that counters any comments about the game.. I love NASCAR 2002 and play it every day.. I just want the dam bugs fixed.. Its either because the Beta Testers and Quality Assurance departments knew or papyrus wont fund fixing them.. what was it... But dont give me the crap your an average joe you are buried to your neck with papyrus.. Don Wilshe "Don Burnette" ... > I'm just a average Joe simracer, who happens to favor Nascar racing sims.

"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:i75F8.4693$[email hidden]... > Not from me, I don't personally insult.. > I would just like to see larger issues addressed, ones that effect the > actual quality of the racing itself. You and I can agree on that.. I can qualify just fine off line at 100% tape.. Trying to do that online is a hit or miss situation.. Its totally happen stance before you BLEW YOUR ENGINE.. lol don

>"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Wow gee not again Don. > > > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. I remember Don (well not you lol) talking about this like 5 years ago when Nascar Racing 2 was released. Just GET OVER WITH IT lol -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I have beta tested in the past for them, and yes I am still an average joe that loves sim racing, and I don't mind critiquing at all as I am sure you saw in another post of mine, whether it be Papy or anyone else. Don Burnette "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vy8F8.509170$[email hidden]... > Ha > > Tell the truth man.. You are and were a Papyrus Beta tester that counters > any comments > about the game.. I love NASCAR 2002 and play it every day.. I just wantthe

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> dam bugs > fixed.. Its either because the Beta Testers and Quality Assurance > departments knew or > papyrus wont fund fixing them.. what was it... But dont give me the crap > your an > average joe you are buried to your neck with papyrus.. > > Don Wilshe > > "Don Burnette" ... > > I'm just a average Joe simracer, who happens to favor Nascar racing

sims. > > >

"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%A8F8.509171$[email hidden]...

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> > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:i75F8.4693$[email hidden]... > > Not from me, I don't personally insult.. > > I would just like to see larger issues addressed, ones that effect the > > actual quality of the racing itself. > > You and I can agree on that.. I can qualify just fine off line at 100% > tape.. Trying to do that online is > a hit or miss situation.. Its totally happen stance before you BLEW YOUR > ENGINE.. lol > > don

Yep, and my online speeds are faster than my offline speeds, which may or may not have something to do with the motor blowing online versus offline. But I can practice a track all day and then go to an online race with the exact same weather conditions and beat my best speed there every time. But too me, things like that and things like the speeds in the night races not right compared to real racing, I could give a hoot about. At least everyone is still on equal ground - but things like the pace car bug at Marty really need to get fixed. Overall though, I thought they did a real good job with N2002 - just wish the online collision detection was more forgiving. Don Burnette

Don, please you insulted DW and now you are trying to insult my intelligence. N4 didn't have realistic physics and although N2002 is light years better, it is still lacking in many respects. I don't mind you being a Papy cheer leader, it got you and many others included as beta testers but you know as well this is a honorarium. Beta testers have little or no input into the game or its bugs. If you speak out too vociferously you get removed from the "team" and will only be frustrated by the lack of response from Papyrus. Been there done that along with many others. N2002 is a good game and I have started playing it again after many years of semi-retirement. I can actually put in a real life setup and get the tweaks to do what they are supposed to in most cases. But I can then make huge changes to certain setups with little change in handling. Not very realistic. Papyrus is the best option we have got at this point but there is still a way to go yet in the evolution. Pete "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:i75F8.4693$[email hidden]...

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> Not from me, I don't personally insult.. > I would just like to see larger issues addressed, ones that effect the > actual quality of the racing itself. Like the Marty pace car bug. > I also wish the collision detection was a little more forgiving for online > racing, while N4 and N2002 are about as realistic as you can get I would > imagine in the physics department, it can sure make for some frustrating > online racing. You just can't race as close online as we should be able

to, > the slightest twitch and you've sent someone spinning. It's rare you can > make slight contact side by side without someone paying a price, evengoing > down the straights. > > Don Burnette

If you speak out too vociferously you get removed from the "team" and will only be > frustrated by the lack of response from Papyrus. Been there done that > along with many others. I was a beta tester for Papyrus for 1 day.. I gave them a list of problems and they said the bugs i identified were just complaining, didn't want to address them and we parted after that day 7 years ago. I have a company www.games-advertising.com that gets paid about $50,000 to test and develop games... We help developed, multiplayer test, sell advertising, provide sound, etc. I work primarily with Julian Data,Pete Reston. Julian has a core group of testers of about 5 testers and I about 25 listed on these games below. We usually find no less than 100 bugs after GOLD release.. Why !!! Companies that develop games are publishers. They are not expert in the application. They have programmers that attempt to simulate the world with little knowledge. But generally speaking they no very little relatively about the application. The reason we dont have a better NASCAR game is because of the understanding at Papyrus of the physics associated with getting the car around the track and the historically weak beta testing core. Ever since Nascar 1 they beta testers have not been a group that understands hardware, software, operating systems or Late Model Racing, 95% just enthusiasts. And dont hand me that crap you work with all those NASCAR drivers as I have talked to them and they tell me there input is generally discarded. You see I work with some of the same Nascar drivers on the games below. Now there are exceptions within the company, ie, Charlie Heath and within the beta testers .. But it has always been a CLICK.. Just a click of people that get along and are aloud to test as long as they dont complain to papyrus. My approach with Bethesda, Infogrames and Ratbag and some more soon is we gonna tell you like it is.. If you give us crap to test we are gonna tell you what's wrong and if necessary how to fix it. These companies appreciate the candor. Games I have help develop are: Drag Racing Games Burnout Players Choice Addition Nira IHRA NHRA Dirt Racing Games Dirt Track Racing World of Outlaws Sprint Car Game Leadfoot Sign - Off, Enough Said.. Don Wilshe www.martelbros.com Coming Soon... Hopefully... 3 new dirt racing games.. Beta Testers Wanted..

You know better than to blame testers for bugs not getting fixed. Testers are not responsible for the design of the game, just testing it. Some companies accept input from tester and some don't. -- Mike Grandy www.precision-racing.com "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:guuF8.340841$[email hidden]... > If you speak out too vociferously you get removed from the "team" and will > only be > > frustrated by the lack of response from Papyrus. Been there done that > > along with many others. > > I was a beta tester for Papyrus for 1 day.. I gave them a list of problems > and they > said the bugs i identified were just complaining, didn't want to address > them and > we parted after that day 7 years ago. I have a company > www.games-advertising.com > that gets paid about $50,000 to test and develop games... We help > developed, multiplayer > test, sell advertising, provide sound, etc. I work primarily with Julian > Data,Pete Reston. > Julian has a core group of testers of about 5 testers and I about 25 listed > on these games > below. > > We usually find no less than 100 > bugs after GOLD release.. Why !!! Companies that develop games are > publishers. They > are not expert in the application. They have programmers that attempt to > simulate the > world with little knowledge. But generally speaking they no very little > relatively about the application. The > reason we dont have a better NASCAR game is because of the understanding at > Papyrus of the physics associated with getting the car around the track and > the historically > weak beta testing core. Ever since Nascar 1 they beta testers have not > been a group > that understands hardware, software, operating systems or Late Model Racing, > 95% just > enthusiasts. And dont hand me that crap you work with all those NASCAR > drivers as I have > talked to them and they tell me there input is generally discarded. You see > I work with > some of the same Nascar drivers on the games below. Now there > are exceptions within the company, ie, Charlie Heath and within the beta > testers .. But it has always been a > CLICK.. Just a click of people that get along and are aloud to test as long > as they dont > complain to papyrus. My approach with Bethesda, Infogrames and Ratbag and > some > more soon is we gonna tell you like it is.. If you give us crap to test we > are gonna tell you > what's wrong and if necessary how to fix it. These companies appreciate > the candor. > > Games I have help develop are: > > Drag Racing Games > > Burnout > Players Choice Addition > Nira > IHRA > NHRA > > Dirt Racing Games > > Dirt Track Racing > World of Outlaws Sprint Car Game > Leadfoot > > Sign - Off, Enough Said.. > > Don Wilshe > www.martelbros.com > > Coming Soon... Hopefully... 3 new dirt racing games.. Beta Testers > Wanted.. > >

Better wording would be... Some companies accept input from some testers and not from shit talking fools like Wilshe. "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4TvF8.96364$[email hidden]...

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> You know better than to blame testers for bugs not getting fixed. Testers > are not responsible for the design of the game, just testing it. Some > companies accept input from tester and some don't. > > > -- > Mike Grandy > www.precision-racing.com > "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:guuF8.340841$[email hidden]... > > If you speak out too vociferously you get removed from the "team" and > will > > only be > > > frustrated by the lack of response from Papyrus. Been there done that > > > along with many others. > > > > I was a beta tester for Papyrus for 1 day.. I gave them a list of

problems

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> > and they > > said the bugs i identified were just complaining, didn't want to address > > them and > > we parted after that day 7 years ago. I have a company > > www.games-advertising.com > > that gets paid about $50,000 to test and develop games... We help > > developed, multiplayer > > test, sell advertising, provide sound, etc. I work primarily with

Julian

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> > Data,Pete Reston. > > Julian has a core group of testers of about 5 testers and I about 25 > listed > > on these games > > below. > > > > We usually find no less than 100 > > bugs after GOLD release.. Why !!! Companies that develop games are > > publishers. They > > are not expert in the application. They have programmers that attempt

to

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> > simulate the > > world with little knowledge. But generally speaking they no very little > > relatively about the application. The > > reason we dont have a better NASCAR game is because of the understanding > at > > Papyrus of the physics associated with getting the car around the track > and > > the historically > > weak beta testing core. Ever since Nascar 1 they beta testers have

not

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> > been a group > > that understands hardware, software, operating systems or Late Model > Racing, > > 95% just > > enthusiasts. And dont hand me that crap you work with all those NASCAR > > drivers as I have > > talked to them and they tell me there input is generally discarded. You > see > > I work with > > some of the same Nascar drivers on the games below. Now there > > are exceptions within the company, ie, Charlie Heath and within the beta > > testers .. But it has always been a > > CLICK.. Just a click of people that get along and are aloud to test as > long > > as they dont > > complain to papyrus. My approach with Bethesda, Infogrames and Ratbag > and > > some > > more soon is we gonna tell you like it is.. If you give us crap to test > we > > are gonna tell you > > what's wrong and if necessary how to fix it. These companies

appreciate

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> > the candor. > > > > Games I have help develop are: > > > > Drag Racing Games > > > > Burnout > > Players Choice Addition > > Nira > > IHRA > > NHRA > > > > Dirt Racing Games > > > > Dirt Track Racing > > World of Outlaws Sprint Car Game > > Leadfoot > > > > Sign - Off, Enough Said.. > > > > Don Wilshe > > www.martelbros.com > > > > Coming Soon... Hopefully... 3 new dirt racing games.. Beta Testers > > Wanted.. > > > > > >

"Don Wilshe" wrote... > If you speak out too vociferously you get removed > from the "team" and will only be frustrated by the > lack of response from Papyrus. Been there done that > along with many others. From your message bodies I get the impression your PC can do more than ALL CAPS, so take it easy with the headers, please. They hurt. As an experienced simracer I'm also amazed about the amount of really basic stuff that is often overlooked by official beta teams, but I'm resigned to carrying the RAS stigma and accept ranting about it here doesn't help. On the oher hand I've also heard about things discovered that wouldn't have occured to me in a million years. Everybody has different priorities in and peeves about games. I would be likely to overlook what others would call "major graphical glitches", e.g. Jan. =--- PS.: correct spelling is "clique" IIRC.

Well, i don't have any problem with Dons input and he has alot of good suggestions and has tried to report legitamate bugs. I was just questioning his attack on people that really do they best job they are allowed to do. Unfortunately it is a time consuming, thankless job with no benefits other than to the racers that actually enjoy the games. -- Mike Grandy www.precision-racing.com "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:V2wF8.19$[email hidden]... > Better wording would be... Some companies accept input from some testers > and not from shit talking fools like Wilshe. > > > "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4TvF8.96364$[email hidden]... > > You know better than to blame testers for bugs not getting fixed. Testers > > are not responsible for the design of the game, just testing it. Some > > companies accept input from tester and some don't. > > > > > > -- > > Mike Grandy > > www.precision-racing.com > > "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:guuF8.340841$[email hidden]... > > > If you speak out too vociferously you get removed from the "team" and > > will > > > only be > > > > frustrated by the lack of response from Papyrus. Been there done that > > > > along with many others. > > > > > > I was a beta tester for Papyrus for 1 day.. I gave them a list of > problems > > > and they > > > said the bugs i identified were just complaining, didn't want to address > > > them and > > > we parted after that day 7 years ago. I have a company > > > www.games-advertising.com > > > that gets paid about $50,000 to test and develop games... We help > > > developed, multiplayer > > > test, sell advertising, provide sound, etc. I work primarily with > Julian > > > Data,Pete Reston. > > > Julian has a core group of testers of about 5 testers and I about 25 > > listed > > > on these games > > > below. > > > > > > We usually find no less than 100 > > > bugs after GOLD release.. Why !!! Companies that develop games are > > > publishers. They > > > are not expert in the application. They have programmers that attempt > to > > > simulate the > > > world with little knowledge. But generally speaking they no very little > > > relatively about the application. The > > > reason we dont have a better NASCAR game is because of the understanding > > at > > > Papyrus of the physics associated with getting the car around the track > > and > > > the historically > > > weak beta testing core. Ever since Nascar 1 they beta testers have > not > > > been a group > > > that understands hardware, software, operating systems or Late Model > > Racing, > > > 95% just > > > enthusiasts. And dont hand me that crap you work with all those NASCAR > > > drivers as I have > > > talked to them and they tell me there input is generally discarded. You > > see > > > I work with > > > some of the same Nascar drivers on the games below. Now there > > > are exceptions within the company, ie, Charlie Heath and within the beta > > > testers .. But it has always been a > > > CLICK.. Just a click of people that get along and are aloud to test as > > long > > > as they dont > > > complain to papyrus. My approach with Bethesda, Infogrames and Ratbag > > and > > > some > > > more soon is we gonna tell you like it is.. If you give us crap to test > > we > > > are gonna tell you > > > what's wrong and if necessary how to fix it. These companies > appreciate > > > the candor. > > > > > > Games I have help develop are: > > > > > > Drag Racing Games > > > > > > Burnout > > > Players Choice Addition > > > Nira > > > IHRA > > > NHRA > > > > > > Dirt Racing Games > > > > > > Dirt Track Racing > > > World of Outlaws Sprint Car Game > > > Leadfoot > > > > > > Sign - Off, Enough Said.. > > > > > > Don Wilshe > > > www.martelbros.com > > > > > > Coming Soon... Hopefully... 3 new dirt racing games.. Beta Testers > > > Wanted.. > > > > > > > > > > > >

Beta testing is not for making suggestions. Suggestions usually require design changes, and could possibly impact seemingly un-related sections of code. Don doesn't have a fuckin clue about what being a softweare developer means, and he certainly doesn't understand the dynamics of being under the gun as far as timelines go, especially when you have a "publisher" like Sierra pounding on you to finish the program according to their schedule. There's no such thing as a program that doesn't have any bugs, and you can't hope to satisfy everyone with the feature list (or the way the features are implemented). God help yuou if one of your end users is a programmer himself, because he'll take a deeper approach to the analysis of a perceived shortcoming and probably try to offer a solution. Now, let's also consider that Don's rant is very one-sided with no specifics as to which problems he reported, how many were fixed, or how many of them are simply that he doesn't like how something was done. Like I said, Wilshe doesn't have a clue. In article <BfwF8.96595$[email hidden]>, mgrandy2 @nycap.rr.com says... > Well, i don't have any problem with Dons input and he has alot of good > suggestions and has tried to report legitamate bugs. I was just questioning > his attack on people that really do they best job they are allowed to do. > Unfortunately it is a time consuming, thankless job with no benefits other > than to the racers that actually enjoy the games. -- ========================================================= DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

>"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote Shut up Don, really. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

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> > Don doesn't have a fuckin clue about what being a softweare developer > means, and he certainly doesn't understand the dynamics of being under > the gun as far as timelines go, especially when you have a "publisher" > like Sierra pounding on you to finish the program according to their > schedule. >

Daaaaaaaa.. Programmer for 37 years.... Headed beta testing for 7 racing games mentioned.. Oh yes I think so.. Don

"Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BfwF8.96595$[email hidden]... > Well, i don't have any problem with Dons input and he has alot of good > suggestions and has tried to report legitamate bugs. I was justquestioning > his attack on people that really do they best job they are allowed to do. > Unfortunately it is a time consuming, thankless job with no benefits other > than to the racers that actually enjoy the games. All the beta testers work extremely hard. I should know.. But the primary reason they are there is because they are part of a click... Sure your \ cant change the design at PAPYRUS, but I must be doing some other kind of testing as we radically changed design at Bethesda, and Ratbag via patches and before the game was released.. DW I get paid alot to beta test. Its the thankless job unless you get paid dw

hehe, frenchy dw "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cOxF8.24138$[email hidden]...

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> >"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > Shut up Don, really. > > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > >

>"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote > hehe, frenchy It's just trolling Don, at least admit it. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:udyF8.342977$[email hidden]...

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> > > > > Don doesn't have a fuckin clue about what being a softweare developer > > means, and he certainly doesn't understand the dynamics of being under > > the gun as far as timelines go, especially when you have a "publisher" > > like Sierra pounding on you to finish the program according to their > > schedule. > > > > > > Daaaaaaaa.. > > Programmer for 37 years.... Headed beta testing for 7 racing games > mentioned.. Oh yes I think so.. > > Don >

Just curious, and I don't mean this as a slam, but if you are that involved in sim racing, why is it I only see you critique the Papy sims? I don't know, maybe I have missed posts by you critiquing other racing sims - if so then I apologize, but it just appears to me when you do appear on the groups to critique a racing sim, it is always a Papy sim. Hell, I critique all of em :) At least all of em that I have tried. Don Burnette

Well, maybe some but I don't think I'm part of a click. Of course, I don't get answers either but thats another story. -- Mike Grandy www.precision-racing.com "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ogyF8.343000$[email hidden]... > > "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BfwF8.96595$[email hidden]... > > Well, i don't have any problem with Dons input and he has alot of good > > suggestions and has tried to report legitamate bugs. I was just > questioning > > his attack on people that really do they best job they are allowed to do. > > Unfortunately it is a time consuming, thankless job with no benefits other > > than to the racers that actually enjoy the games. > > All the beta testers work extremely hard. I should know.. But the primary > reason they are there is because they are part of a click... Sure your \ > cant change the design at PAPYRUS, but I must be doing some other > kind of testing as we radically changed design at Bethesda, and > Ratbag via patches and before the game was released.. DW > > I get paid alot to beta test. Its the thankless job unless you get > paid > > dw > > > > >

You know as well as I do it's a whole different situation at Ratbag. -- Mike Grandy www.precision-racing.com "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ogyF8.343000$[email hidden]... > > "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BfwF8.96595$[email hidden]... > > Well, i don't have any problem with Dons input and he has alot of good > > suggestions and has tried to report legitamate bugs. I was just > questioning > > his attack on people that really do they best job they are allowed to do. > > Unfortunately it is a time consuming, thankless job with no benefits other > > than to the racers that actually enjoy the games. > > All the beta testers work extremely hard. I should know.. But the primary > reason they are there is because they are part of a click... Sure your \ > cant change the design at PAPYRUS, but I must be doing some other > kind of testing as we radically changed design at Bethesda, and > Ratbag via patches and before the game was released.. DW > > I get paid alot to beta test. Its the thankless job unless you get > paid > > dw > > > > >

"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5hyF8.343001$[email hidden]... > hehe, frenchy > > dw > Ya know Don I was getting worried about your rant and multiplayer testing....I was half expecting you to list GP1, 2, 3, & 4 and F1 2000/1/2 as your sims you beta'd...thankfully I was wrong... :) dave henrie

Okay don, tell me how much software you have personally participated in as a coder. How much of it's on the shelf? Beta tester? Big fucking deal (by your own definition). I think someone else hit it on the head when they mentioned that you always slam Papy sims. Maybe it's just sour grapes on your part, and you're a little bit embarrased to be associated with Ratbag (definitely a mover and shaker in the racing sim world, eh don?). I think Papy did the right thing by showing you the door. In article <udyF8.342977$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > > > > Don doesn't have a fuckin clue about what being a softweare developer > > means, and he certainly doesn't understand the dynamics of being under > > the gun as far as timelines go, especially when you have a "publisher" > > like Sierra pounding on you to finish the program according to their > > schedule. > > > > > > Daaaaaaaa.. > > Programmer for 37 years.... Headed beta testing for 7 racing games > mentioned.. Oh yes I think so.. > > Don > > > > >

-- ========================================================= DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > Ya know Don I was getting worried about your rant and multiplayer > testing....I was half expecting you to list GP1, 2, 3, & 4 and F1 2000/1/2 > as your sims you beta'd...thankfully I was wrong... Yeah you know Dave these ratbag and bethesda games have incredible multiplayer, with tons of client and server capabilities and community options <roll eyes> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I agree the collision physics are pretty bad, compared to the rest of the game. Right now, it's like your car is a tennis ball that bounces off whatever it touches. Realistic collision physics is pretty cutting edge stuff though, and probably several CPU generations away from being feasible for a PC game. A little more leeway sounds like a good compromise, especially with warp, etc. What exactly is the bug w. the pacecar at Martinsville? Didn't they have a really bad time with this in N4? Gerald "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<i75F8.4693$[email hidden]>...

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> Not from me, I don't personally insult.. > I would just like to see larger issues addressed, ones that effect the > actual quality of the racing itself. Like the Marty pace car bug. > I also wish the collision detection was a little more forgiving for online > racing, while N4 and N2002 are about as realistic as you can get I would > imagine in the physics department, it can sure make for some frustrating > online racing. You just can't race as close online as we should be able to, > the slightest twitch and you've sent someone spinning. It's rare you can > make slight contact side by side without someone paying a price, even going > down the straights. > > Don Burnette > > > > "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Nj0F8.50110$[email hidden]... > > LOL, no one can bring out the Papy-Nazi's faster than Don Wilshe! > > DW how dare you raise issue's about a game! Being right doesn't justify > > this outrage. It will soon be followed by personal insults directed > against > > you in order to quiet your misguided motives. Whoops, they have already > > started. :-) > > Of course this diversion on the Papy-Nazi's part alleviates the > > requirement > > to answer the question. > > I can already hear the giant sucking sound in response. :-) > > > > Pete > > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Ay_E8.1830$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Lol, it's called let's nitpick and see just how much we can find wrong. > > > Yet, the game he is promoting, hell I have done forgot the name of it, > they > > > already have a patch about to be released before the game is LOL. > > > > > > Don Burnette > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >