http://www.liveforspeed.net/
updated each day with new patch details, looking like some significant
improvements for lfs,should be coming soon.
Tango
Notable threadLive for Speed S2 patch with new tyre physics and BMW Sauber
Users followed the daily previews of a major Live for Speed S2 update promising improved tyre physics and a new Formula 1 car. After the patch arrived, Jan Verschueren declared LFS overall the best sim for how it communicates the car to the driver, while Tony Rickard and ymenard questioned its graphics and fictional tracks. Later posts discussed LFS's rule enforcement for league use.
Automated summary.
> updated each day with new patch details, looking like some significant
> improvements for lfs,should be coming soon.
I'm really looking forward to the improvment in tire physics. I've
pretty much given up on LFS while waiting for this improvement. Based
on the patch details, it should be much better. The current release
was called alpha and for good reason.
One concern is that as all racing sims improve, what will be the
distinguishing factors for future games. With only a crew of 3
programmers, and based on the current pace, I figure that the final
release of LFS (S3) will happen in 2008 or 2009. Wondering what
the competition will be like by then?
"Jeff Reid" wrote...
>> <snip>
> I'm really looking forward to the improvment in tire physics.
> I've pretty much given up on LFS while waiting for this
> improvement. Based on the patch details, it should be much
> better.
The game is far too good to give up on, IMO, but I've also refrained from
putting any serious effort into it as being competitive automatically meant
using exploits. I have to say I've really got my hopes up for this patch
too.
> One concern is that as all racing sims improve, what will
> be the distinguishing factors for future games. With only
> a crew of 3 programmers, and based on the current pace,
> I figure that the final release of LFS (S3) will happen in
> 2008 or 2009. Wondering what the competition will be
> like by then?
Non-existant, the way it's looking, since there's no major player doing
racing simulations anymore(*). ;-(
Jan.
=---
(*): as in size of corporation as opposed to reputation, of course.
"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:Sh20g.15623$iU2.8390@fed1read01:
i know things have been slow with lfs development but scawen has just
become a father so he has a valid excuse ! thats the price you pay for a
small development team. Tango
Quoted text (13 lines)
>> updated each day with new patch details, looking like some >> significant improvements for lfs,should be coming soon. > > I'm really looking forward to the improvment in tire physics. I've > pretty much given up on LFS while waiting for this improvement. Based > on the patch details, it should be much better. The current release > was called alpha and for good reason. > > One concern is that as all racing sims improve, what will be the > distinguishing factors for future games. With only a crew of 3 > programmers, and based on the current pace, I figure that the final > release of LFS (S3) will happen in 2008 or 2009. Wondering what > the competition will be like by then?> Non-existant, the way it's looking, since there's no major player doing racing simulations anymore(*). ;-(
GTR2 is in the works. Maybe Simbin will keep making games.
>"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote
> GTR2 is in the works. Maybe Simbin will keep making games.
That's a very minor player of the Industry.
Tango <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
holy cow.....
http://www.liveforspeed.net/wtf.html
wtf indeed !
Tango
"Tango" wrote...
> <snip>
> holy cow.....
>
> http://www.liveforspeed.net/wtf.html
>
> wtf indeed !
And I thought the FO8 was a handfull... eeek!!
I wonder whether we're getting adjustable traction control, engine mapping
and so forth?
Jan.
=---
Tango <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
confirmed...
http://www.liveforspeed.net/countdown/
Tango
Quoted text (10 lines)
> Tango <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > holy cow..... > > http://www.liveforspeed.net/wtf.html > > wtf indeed ! > Tango >"Tango" wrote...
> <snip>
Oh my god.... they've fixed LFS!!
I'm known not to mince my words around here, so I'll live up to my
reputation.
As of now LFS is, overall, the best sim..
And the Sauber is a hoot to drive, BTW. <g>
Jan.
=---
Jan Verschueren wrote:
Yes Jan!!!
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Oh my god.... they've fixed LFS!! > > I'm known not to mince my words around here, so I'll live up to my > reputation. > > As of now LFS is, overall, the best sim.. > > And the Sauber is a hoot to drive, BTW. <g> > > Jan. > =--->"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote
> And the Sauber is a hoot to drive, BTW. <g>
But those tracks... eww.. there's no real potential.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
Jan Verschueren wrote:
I respect your view, Jan, but on what basis? LFS is developing along
nicely but still has some way to go before it vies for such a crown, if
it ever does, I am not sure it will ever be a contender for best racing
simulation but satisfy a more compromising (and probably larger)
audience. The graphics are so so, a bit too arcade like for my tastes,
the cockpits especially, sound is the worst in any sim and the physics
still feel numb. The Sauber only adds to the arcade feel IMHO.
I am so far unimpressed and judging by the lack of activity on the LFS
RSC forum patch T hardly seems to have set the world alight.
Maybe the thing that is missing for me is atmosphere, LFS just feels
like a computer game to me rather than simulating car racing.
One thing I notice is that I have got used to the rfactor, GT Legends,
NetKar pro method of moving the world view around going over bumps etc.
as opposed to the LFS way of keep the view still and moving the car
around. It seems to dumb down the sensation of hurling a stiff car
around a bumpy track and clattering over curbs etc. Whilst your body
acts as a degree of shock absorber you still move with the car so seeing
the outside view stay rock steady makes everything seem too relaxed and
easy.
I have always thought LFS has its own market (my son plays it with his
mates in a not very serious way) but not really the likely choice for
the hardcore simmers craving a bit more realism. Doesn't make it in my
top three...
Cheers
Tony
Quoted text (11 lines)
> "Tango" wrote... >> <snip> > > Oh my god.... they've fixed LFS!! > > I'm known not to mince my words around here, so I'll live up to my > reputation. > > As of now LFS is, overall, the best sim.. > > And the Sauber is a hoot to drive, BTW. <g>> One thing I notice is that I have got used to the rfactor, GT Legends, NetKar pro method of moving the world view
> around going over bumps etc.
Isn't this adjustable in the options (how much g forces affect the
driver)?
Persistence is the twin sister of excellence. One is a matter of
quality; the other, a matter of time. Bumblebee hum, excessively
heuristic handling and self-righteous, esoterically pseudo-sagacious
plebeian market aside - persistence is the twin sister of excellence.
The Sauber F1 is excellent!!!
Tony Rickard <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Cwr2g.57548
$[email hidden]:
> I am so far unimpressed and judging by the lack of activity on the LFS
> RSC forum patch T hardly seems to have set the world alight.
probably because lfs users/fans etc all go to the official forum and
have been for quite some time !
http://www.lfsforum.net/
this thread was locked at 2164 posts in less than a week
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=6400
avatars had to be switched off because of high traffic concerns
Tango
"Tony Rickard" wrote...
>>> <snip>
>> <snip>
> I respect your view, Jan, but on what basis? LFS is developing
> along nicely but still has some way to go before it vies for such
> a crown, if it ever does,
Because of it being the best at communicating the virtual car to the driver
and of where the difficulty with regard to going fast is at.
LFS is the easiest sim to pick up for people with sim- and real life
experience alike, but going really quick poses the same sort of difficulty
as in real life. All a matter of driving a very well defined ideal line
around the circuit and managing the weight transfer within your vehicle to
perfection. IMO LFS has, to a certain extend (more on that later). always
portrayed this "a minute to pick up, a lifetime to master"-notion.
As I've been saying since day one of my involvement here, a lot of people
who drive sims seem to think the harder actually getting the virtual car
around the track is, the more realistic the sim. This is a false
proposition. In my limited experience, operating racecars is extremely easy
compared to road cars (it needs to be, given the speed the control actions
need to be delivered at). Getting them around the racetrack faster than the
next guy is the hard part, which, IMO, LFS models beautifully.
Racing is a skill which could be learned given infinate funds and the
ability to be invulnerable, which is why only the truly gifted make it in
real life. As far as this goes LFS is the only sim which respects this
aspect. There are serveral guys which I (with superior "sim" experience) can
dominate in the virtual arena, but have no hope of matching in a real life
racing situation. The same goes for LFS: drivers who are simply no match for
me in just about any sim (be it Papyrus or ISI) are more than a match around
its tracks in any car.
Before a particular style of driving combined with using setups which
exploited certain parts of the model resulted in being proficient at LFS by
treating it more as a game than as a sim, but first evidence suggests this
is no longer the case. Hence my statement and the feeling of finally being
on equal terms with those who adapted to LFS in favour of other sims.
> I am not sure it will ever be a contender for best racing simulation but
> satisfy a more compromising (and probably
> larger) audience.
You're just being delusional here. There is nothing elite in taking to
something which doesn't come natural to a racing driver.
> The graphics are so so, a bit too arcade like for my tastes.
Compared to what? -there's a couple of things in rFactor with regard to
lighting which add to the experience, but this aspect fades to
insignificance with regard to the way the driver has to compensate for the
actual "lay of the land" with regard to his car.
> the cockpits especially,
Err...what?
> sound is the worst in any sim
It's functional and far richer than what one would hear in RL.
> and the physics still feel numb
Nothing matches the "in yer face" crispness of LFS. There is no way anyone
would be able to stay ahead of the road going cars without it.
>. The Sauber only adds to the arcade feel IMHO.
It's a fact of life current F1 cars accelerate and decellerate at a
ridiculess rate compared to what the average human brain can cope with.
Which is why computer aided gizmos are required to free up CPU cycles in the
modern day F1 driver's head. Again, I think the LFS Sauber is not that much
"off".
> I am so far unimpressed and judging by the lack of activity
> on the LFS RSC forum patch T hardly seems to have set
> the world alight.
Who cares about what RSC forum dwellers think? They've never been on a par
with RAS opinion and never will.
> Maybe the thing that is missing for me is atmosphere, LFS\
> just feels like a computer game to me rather than simulating
> car racing.
Compared to LFS S2 patch T, GPL and its mods are a game.
I know I made changes to the way the game handles this aspect way back when,
but I don't remember exactly what I did. I'm sure, however, the game is
fully configurable in this aspect and any gripes are due to the user not
giving it due time and attendion.
> I have always thought LFS has its own market (my son plays it
> with his mates in a not very serious way) but not really the likely
> choice for the hardcore simmers craving a bit more realism.
> <snip>
I used to treat it this way too: despite the fact it did several things very
right indeed , LFS S2 Q simply favoured "the gamer" too much to warrant any
real interest on my behalf. To my mind, this patch has changed everything. I
have gained five-fold what the hotlapper has gained with this release and
that's before I've begun to appy myself and release all my simulation
experience upon these lowlifes. It's payback time as far as I'm concerned
(and having nagging concerns lifted adds to the fun factor for myself as
well).
To be honest there's a number of things which still need to be done.
Blocking messages should block messages, period, instead of just leaving out
what other users type. Similarly, the way in which the game remembers a
mistimed shift with all aides off untill revs match or the clutch is fully
disengaged needs to be removed. When a driver mistimes a shift that should
be that. Try again and be more "in tune" about it next time, you buffoon. As
it is, I'm catching myself driving what is representing a modern day racing
car as a pre-selector gearbox Vanwall (I drive LFS in way which I consider
"proper", BTW, i.e. "manually" operated clutch, right foot braking,
heel-toe, correct steering angle lock-to-lock with my DFP, etc... where
applicable).
Overall LFS S2 patch T retains what was good about LFS all along, while to a
large extend plugging the holes hotlappers were exploiting up 'till now and
therefore, with it's highly configurable and almost bulletproof online plqy,
should be, IMO, considered king of the crop for the time being. Until the
fFactor community manages to chuck out something complete and consistent, at
any rate.
Jan.
=----
Quoted text (9 lines)
> One thing I notice is that I have got used to the rfactor, GT > Legends, NetKar pro method of moving the world view > around going over bumps etc. as opposed to the LFS way > of keep the view still and moving the car around. It seems to > dumb down the sensation of hurling a stiff car around a > bumpy track and clattering over curbs etc. Whilst your body acts as a > degree of shock absorber you still move with the car > so seeing the outside view stay rock steady makes everything > seem too relaxed and easy."ymenard" wrote...
>> <snip>
>
> But those tracks... eww.. there's no real potential.
A licenced car leading to more exposure, leading to licenced tracks, leading
to....
Ok, a bit rosy specced, but not that farfetched.
Jan.
=---
> > The graphics are so so
> Compared to what?
NR2003, F1C99-02 with RH2004 mod, GTR, GTLegends.
Or arcade games like NFS:Most Wanted.
Jeff Reid wrote:
While LFS might not have the best gfx out there they are more than
serviceable, still it's the whole package that makes LFS the excellent
sim that it is.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > The graphics are so so > > > Compared to what? > > NR2003, F1C99-02 with RH2004 mod, GTR, GTLegends. > > Or arcade games like NFS:Most Wanted.EA has infinite budget. No one can compete with the one eye monopoly
monster.
[email hidden] wrote:
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Jeff Reid wrote: >>>> The graphics are so so >>> Compared to what? >> NR2003, F1C99-02 with RH2004 mod, GTR, GTLegends. >> >> Or arcade games like NFS:Most Wanted. > > While LFS might not have the best gfx out there they are more than > serviceable, still it's the whole package that makes LFS the excellent > sim that it is. >
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dnV2g.388463$[email hidden]...
<snip>
Jan,
How do you rate the features of LFS for supporting league competitions, both
online and offline? I mean reporting of results, enforcement of rules etc.
Bart
Quoted text (10 lines)
> "Tony Rickard" wrote... >>>> <snip> >>> <snip> >> I respect your view, Jan, but on what basis? LFS is developing >> along nicely but still has some way to go before it vies for such >> a crown, if it ever does, > > Because of it being the best at communicating the virtual car to the driver > and of where the difficulty with regard to going fast is at. >"Bart Westra" wrote...
> Jan,
> How do you rate the features of LFS for supporting league competitions,
> both online and offline? I mean reporting of results, enforcement of rules
> etc.
For offline hotlapping the rules the game enforces are pretty strict. Even
something as harmless as running off the end of a kerb and twitching the car
sideways on the dirt invalidates a lap in some cases. For online racing
pitspeed is enforced to a ridiculous level as well and tyre stacks are in
put in position to guard against extreme cutting (once these are run over,
it takes some time to get them back, tho'). Some sections on some tracks
overstep the line with regard creating the possibility for using more than
"all of the track and then some", which irks me (Aston GP rev., e.g. has a
bit where one can enter a fast turn with the car completely the other side
of the kerb on the outside of the racing surface (there's this kind of
concrete tile which allows grass to grow through to guard against people
killing themselves if they run wide when the track is used in the normal
direction put down there).
There are tools which extract data from replays, but qualifying data is not
stored in a race replay (even when one doesn't do a "laglap" to make sure
everyone's ready when the race is started). Here's an example (link will
wrap):
http://www.vrl-simracing.be/exports/BE-NL%20LFS/BE-NL_race2server2/24.04.06_001026_results.html
It is also possible for league owners to tap into the data stored at
LFSWorld. One request every 4 seconds is free, or one can take out a premium
account to access the data directly at a small cost per request. The VRL
league pre-qualifying tool Sywix uses this option.
http://timpreza.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=LFS&action=display&thread=1142159414
Overall we (the VRL) rated LFS (pre-patch) as the most complete and league
friendly sim over GTR, GTL and rFactor and thus decided to organise a
championship. About 30 drivers are involved, of which about 25 compete on a
regular basis.
Jan.
=---
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:HMc3g.390108$[email hidden]...
> <a nice text on lfs usage for leagues>
> Jan.
Thanks Jan!
Jan Verschueren wrote:
I think you could have argued the same with GP2. Whilst I agree on your
comments regarding difficulty, I do think race cars should be on
something of a knife edge when on the limit. The difference with sims is
that you reach that limit before you really have a feel for the car, in
real life you don't explore the limits on the outlap! NetKar pro is the
only sim I have found myself exploring the limits slowly, driving around
at a slowish pace and gradually increasing - just like real life.
I have spun more race cars on a corporate day out than 25 years normal
car driving - simply because I could go hell for leather - I didn't
deliberately spin them though!
> Before a particular style of driving combined with using setups which
> exploited certain parts of the model resulted in being proficient at LFS by
> treating it more as a game than as a sim, but first evidence suggests this
> is no longer the case. Hence my statement and the feeling of finally being
> on equal terms with those who adapted to LFS in favour of other sims.
I ventured online for a quick FOX race around South City. The overriding
feeling was the amount of lift off oversteer and the ease at holding
drifts. It was as if oversteer was on tap and just by the amount of lift
I could rear end steer to avoid understeering off and with the right
amount of right foot could avoid spinning. I still feel concerned this
easy drifting method could be employed in pretty much any car even more
easily than GPL which was criticised for too similar to a rally style
for open wheel track racing. Having said that I wasn't particularly
quick having zero practice with LFS, the cars and the tracks for a long
time, but the other guys were holding huge drifts. Hardly conclusive but
certainly my initial observation.
NetKar Pro has far more subtle lift off oversteer and is more likely to
be provoked to tuck in under braking. In LFS lifting completely on a
fast bend invokes huge amounts of oversteer.
>> The graphics are so so, a bit too arcade like for my tastes.
>
> Compared to what? -there's a couple of things in rFactor with regard to
> lighting which add to the experience, but this aspect fades to
> insignificance with regard to the way the driver has to compensate for the
> actual "lay of the land" with regard to his car.
I gave it a more extended go last night. I will confess I hadn't run lfs
since updating my graphics card so I didn't have a profile set up for it
so I was ruuning minimal AA/AF etc. It looks a lot better now but still
not up to GT Legends or NetKar Pro for me.
>> the cockpits especially,
>
> Err...what?
The cockpits really are poor especially compared with GTL and the
community produced GPL cockpits, they really contribute to the arcade
game feel.
I guess simulated modern F1 just doesn't appeal to me any more
regardless of sim
> Try again and be more "in tune" about it next time, you buffoon.
I should spend more time with it but the overall atmosphere of the sim
doesn't seem to be working for me. Maybe a wheel to wheel online race
with some similar paced drivers might do it - picking it up after god
know how many months and launching straight into an online race (cos the
ai is truly bad) is not a real test.
I just need to extend the days by a few hours...
Cheers
Tony
