Getting to the real track. Share your experiences.

This past weekend I went to Mosport for the first time to watch the Speedvision races. I spend an amazing day at the Moss Corner (the hairpin with the insane turn-straight-turn) and came away with a completely changed perspective on the track. Namely, the Mosport in GPL is absolutely nothing like the real thing. :-) The real Mosport is much much steeper, the tracks a lot narrower. The back-straight for example is actually a pretty steep uphill climb, and the Moss Corner is something out of a rollercoaster ride. Probably a 45% incline, with a hairpin turn right at the top of the incline, just as your suspension was done being unloaded. Needless to say there are quite a few spin-outs at the Moss Corner, just like in the "real" GPL. The real Mosport is much more claustrophobic than how GPL has depicted it. In fact I think it's very close in feel to GPL's version of Nurburgring, certainly every bit as scary. Which begs the question, just how scary the real Nurburgring really is, if it looks that tame in GPL. And what about Zanvoort, Road Atlanta, Sears Point, or Brand Hatches to name a few? You know what I'm getting at? I'm starting to wonder if GPL doesn't really capture the feel of the tracks all that well, especially when it comes to difficult terrain. The cockpit view in GPL still feels too much like you're floating on top of the car, instead of being inside it. I've been using the bumper-view mode in Nascar 4 and has had some success in putting some of the Go-Kart feel back into the game. Omitting the bumper-view perspective really was a great oversight in GPL. My other gripe of the day, why do auto-sport TV coverage spend 95% of the airtime shooting the race from fixed cameras along the side of the track? To me TV coverage only get interesting when they show in-car cams (and the new cool helmet cam in CART). Please share your stories on the differences between GPL and the real tracks you've been to.

> My other gripe of the day, why do auto-sport TV coverage spend 95% of the > airtime shooting the race from fixed cameras along the side of the track? > To me TV coverage only get interesting when they show in-car cams (and the > new cool helmet cam in CART). Sponsors don't like in-car shots. They spend a lot of money getting their logos on the hood, sides, and roof of that car. If the whole race coverage consisted of in-car shots, they'd only get one little tiny logo (the one on the dash) in front of your eyes. Never forget that most professional racing only exists because of advertising. And *all* TV coverage exists because of advertising.

>"Johannes Climacus" <[email hidden]> wrote > Namely, the Mosport in GPL is absolutely nothing like the real thing. :-) Well, Mosport was almost completely thrown down and rebuilt a couple of years ago. Everything changed, just about the basic similar layout stayed the same. Elevation, drops, camber, spinning zones, tree lines, etc.. they were all changed. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Johannes Climacus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Please share your stories on the differences between GPL and the realtracks > you've been to. > Castle Combe's about as accurate a track as you could recreate digitally within the confines of GPL Mike and Fred pulled off a work of art there. On the other end of the scale - Noonan's Brands Hatch needs no introduction...well..actually - it does - it's hardly recognisable Doug

"Johannes Climacus" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht news:[email hidden]... > Which begs the question, just how scary the > real Nurburgring really is, if it looks that tame in GPL. And what about > Zanvoort, Road Atlanta, Sears Point, or Brand Hatches to name a few? The GPL Ring is pretty much spot on. I was impressed with Papy's accuracy there. It just seems steeper and higher in real life, but if you set the FOV in GPL to a realistic value (instead of the default wide angled perspective) that is exactly what you get. The same is true for Zandvoort, at least for the few corners that still remain (Tarzan to Scheivlak). True to life. Also the graphic impression seems to convey the feel of Zandvoort in the sixties, just a little simplified. Bye, Leo

Johannes Climacus ([email hidden]) wrote on 23 May 2002: <snip> > Please share your stories on the differences between GPL and the > real tracks you've been to. Castle Combe is superb. Of course, the makers had a big advantage in that it's changed very little in 50 years - in fact, until the two (quite good) chicanes were put in a few years back, its layout hadn't changed at all since it opened! The only other course I'd know well enough to comment in detail about is Donington, and that's not out. (Yet?) Though the Ring is pretty recognisable from Derek Bell's lap in "In Car 956" despite a few track changes in the intervening time. -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard

Kyalami is wrong in GPL, T2 for instance is pretty easy one in real life. Watkins Glen is wrong too from what i have seen of my 1971 videos. The Ring isnt so good as people claim i think. "Johannes Climacus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > This past weekend I went to Mosport for the first time to watch the > Speedvision races. I spend an amazing day at the Moss Corner (the hairpin > with the insane turn-straight-turn) and came away with a completelychanged > perspective on the track. Namely, the Mosport in GPL is absolutelynothing > like the real thing. :-) The real Mosport is much much steeper, thetracks > a lot narrower. The back-straight for example is actually a pretty steep > uphill climb, and the Moss Corner is something out of a rollercoasterride. > Probably a 45% incline, with a hairpin turn right at the top of theincline, > just as your suspension was done being unloaded. Needless to say thereare

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> quite a few spin-outs at the Moss Corner, just like in the "real" GPL. > > The real Mosport is much more claustrophobic than how GPL has depicted it. > In fact I think it's very close in feel to GPL's version of Nurburgring, > certainly every bit as scary. Which begs the question, just how scary the > real Nurburgring really is, if it looks that tame in GPL. And what about > Zanvoort, Road Atlanta, Sears Point, or Brand Hatches to name a few? You > know what I'm getting at? I'm starting to wonder if GPL doesn't really > capture the feel of the tracks all that well, especially when it comes to > difficult terrain. The cockpit view in GPL still feels too much like

you're > floating on top of the car, instead of being inside it. I've been usingthe > bumper-view mode in Nascar 4 and has had some success in putting some ofthe

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> Go-Kart feel back into the game. Omitting the bumper-view perspective > really was a great oversight in GPL. > > My other gripe of the day, why do auto-sport TV coverage spend 95% of the > airtime shooting the race from fixed cameras along the side of the track? > To me TV coverage only get interesting when they show in-car cams (and the > new cool helmet cam in CART). > > Please share your stories on the differences between GPL and the real

tracks > you've been to. >

"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tLmH8.8802$[email hidden]... I just came back from the Brickyard for Carburation Day... I noticed the turns are backed somewhat more than depicted in any of the Sims that I have seen. This could be simply a matter of perception on my part. I've also thought that until N2002 Rockingham didn't have the proper banking...it always seemed steeper from TV and in-car shots. Tim

I don't think Papy got Rockingham right until N4. Most people shifted in the corners before because the RPM range varied so much. It is much more realistic now. I've never drove around any of the tracks in GPL or Nascar 2002 though, so it's just a guess based on TV footage and in car shots and telemetry. I live very close to Kansas Speedway and I am going to do the Richard Petty school thing this summer and I'll know how close that track is to Nascar 2002. Tim Ferrell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:04rH8.6244$[email hidden]... > > "Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tLmH8.8802$[email hidden]... > I just came back from the Brickyard for Carburation Day... I noticed the > turns are backed somewhat more than depicted in any of the Sims that Ihave > seen. This could be simply a matter of perception on my part. I've also > thought that until N2002 Rockingham didn't have the proper banking...it > always seemed steeper from TV and in-car shots. > Tim > >

"Johannes Climacus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > This past weekend I went to Mosport for the first time to watch the > Speedvision races. I spend an amazing day at the Moss Corner (the hairpin > with the insane turn-straight-turn) and came away with a completelychanged > perspective on the track. Namely, the Mosport in GPL is absolutelynothing > like the real thing. :-) The real Mosport is much much steeper, thetracks > a lot narrower. The back-straight for example is actually a pretty steep > uphill climb, and the Moss Corner is something out of a rollercoasterride. > Probably a 45% incline, with a hairpin turn right at the top of theincline, > just as your suspension was done being unloaded. Needless to say thereare > quite a few spin-outs at the Moss Corner, just like in the "real" GPL. As others have pointed out, Mosport has changed quite a bit over the last few years, after remaining virtually unchanged since it opened in 1961. Bottom line, when GPL was released, it was an accurate representation of the track at the time the sim was developed, and more specifically a fair representation of the track as it would have appeared in 1967. Some things in GPL are incorrect (runoff areas are too large in some places compared to 1967, and some of the marshal's flagging positions have changed, etc). I'm a track marshal at Mosport and was amazed at how GPL made me feel like I was going around the real thing (which I have done many, many times). Mosport's track surface was originally built 28-ft wide. Over the last 3 years, it was repaved to FIA-spec 40-ft all around, a 42% increase in width! The widening was done with careful consideration as to how not to change the character of the track. In 1996(I think it was?), they shaved the 'hump' on the backstraight as WSC cars were consistently lifting off cresting the rise, and it was deemed too dangerous (there was even a temporary chicane made of pylons for the race.. it didn't last long!). The other major recent change (in 1999) would be that the pit-lane has totally redone (widened & lengthened) so it now exits 1/2way between T1 & T2, whereas it had always exited at the top of the hill at T1 as in GPL. As for your impression that the real Mosport is much steeper (backstraight, Moss corner) -- the elevation changes seem fairly well represented in GPL in my opinion -- T4 into Moss is fairly steep, but fast, and then you do enter a steep uphill section before flattening out (btw, many cars have always taken T4 flat out, which is very daunting as you can't see the bottom from the entry point). Seems realistic to me. Same with the backstraight - in GPL it's definitely a long climb, as it is in real life. The major realism 'error' that Papy made with GPL's Mosport is with the crowd. In 1967, there were 58,000 spectators. The sparse crowd that is shown in GPL is representative of the number of spectators on a regional(non-pro) weekend circa 1996! (ie: it's pretty much the drivers & crew's friends & families, marshals, and photographers.) Why there aren't thousands of spectators lining the GPL fences, I'll never know. That's my pet-peeve with Mosport GPL. Otherwise, my hats-off to the GPL designers! Racefan_Dan

>Which begs the question, just how scary the real Nurburgring really is, ifit looks that tame in >GPL. Take an onboard ride with the many videos here of the "Ring" and see for yourself. http://www.motorcycle-dk.com/en/multimedia/index.php?viewCat=1 -- Daytona Beach - Winter Speed Carnival 1903 - 1935 1919 - Ralph DePalma Driving Champion and winner of hundreds of races, sets new 1 mile record driving 905 cubic inch V-12 Packard on beach at 149.875 mph. DePalma also sets World Records for distances of 2 to 20 miles and standing mile. His standing mile record of 92.713 mph is unbroken for 36 years.

On Thu, 23 May 2002 20:29:48 GMT, Johannes Climacus <[email hidden]> wrote: >The real Mosport is much more claustrophobic than how GPL has depicted it. >In fact I think it's very close in feel to GPL's version of Nurburgring, >certainly every bit as scary. Which begs the question, just how scary the >real Nurburgring really is, if it looks that tame in GPL. How scary the Ring is depends wether you are on the outside watching, or in your car trying to make it round without crashing ... Actually, it is impossible to simulate a real 3D world with a little 19" screen, an FFB wheel and some speakers. Thats why one should drive GPL in winter, and the real Ring in summer. ;-) -- Matthias Flatt

"REDLINE426" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3QtH8.8175$[email hidden]>...

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> >Which begs the question, just how scary the real Nurburgring really is, if > it looks that tame in >GPL. > > Take an onboard ride with the many videos here of the "Ring" and see for > yourself. > > http://www.motorcycle-dk.com/en/multimedia/index.php?viewCat=1

I can testify that the increased sense of elevation changes and G-forces make it plenty scary!: /begin self-indulgent repost/ My Day at the 'Ring Or - driving as religious experience... Since it was my first trip to Europe, and I was right in Brussels, Belgium, it was an absolute misson for me to get to the 'Ring. I traded in my Renault Laguna for an Audi A4 1.6 a day before to give me chance to get used to it. I must say it was a very nice-handling car. 1.6 liters wasn't a whole lot of engine, but it had really powerful 4-wheel discs, which was probably ideal for someone going for thier first on-track driving experience (dark blue, for anyone who was there). I really picked a good day to go - they were holding a vintage bike/car race on the GP circuit, so I had alot of fun walking around the pits ogling while I waited for the Nordschlief to open. First off - this was just incredible to me to actually be *driving* on the 'Ring. I may get flamed for this, but to me this is the greatest racetrack ever, where the real heroes of racing were made. What's Indianapolis? - four left turns and a yard of brick ;). Just amazing that you can still drive here. I was surprised at what good shape the track surface was in - the oncar videos I'd seen made it look like it was going to be a bit torn up (have they re-paved recently?) Forgive me for not knowing the corner names... Low points - -Being one of the stupid newbie tourists that got in line without a ticket and held up the serious folks early in line. -Only having money for 2 laps, and the track closing early by the time I'd got back from a money machine - I guess someone wrecked? I saw a race car on a trailer with front end damage. 'Oh Shit' moments - -Almost every time I practiced in GPL, the downhill into a right, that encourages you to use the elevation change to take advantage of the added grip, but is followed by a really tight left at the top of the hill. Anyway - I kept missing this turn in GPL, and sure enough it caught me out the first lap - both right wheels up on the curbing (OK- the entire right half of the car...). -Following a Lotus Elise into a turn and letting myself get sucked into way too much speed at the apex. I spent the entire exit plowing the speed off till the curbing on the left before I touched the gas again. -Letting a pair of bikes by into the second banked turn, and having to get back onto the banking <2ft behind the last bike because I felt like I had too much speed to make it through on the flat outside of the curve. -Wanting to give the folks at one of the spectating points a nice show, and banging the car against the rev-limiter on a downshift to second (I was already keeping the engine between 4500-6000rpms most of the time). Good moments - -Following up the bungled downshift with a nice exit from the complex - in 3rd ;)... -Giving the folks at the next complex a nice show, hopefully - I know I got the suspension completely unloaded at the crest of the hill, and just made the turn-in point. -Finding a rythm through the left-right-left turns, and really using all the turns: kissing the curbs at the apexes and running it right out to the curbs on the exits of the individual turns. -Taking the Karussel in 3rd gear, looking out the side window to look far enough through the turn. -Being a good citizen and signalling right, and letting the other drivers make clean passes. -Only getting caught up by obviously faster cars, and even having a 'Ring-taxi BMW M-wagon follow me for a few turns even though I'd signalled right initially. Don't know if he was content with the pace I was holding, or scared to enter a turn near me ;). All in all just an incredible experience! I'm going to do all I can to make sure I go back for the next system upgrade, and try to schedule around a long day with the 'Ring. I have worshipped at the altar of motorsport and I am forever changed :)... PS - Give both the museum at the GP course (too touristy for the money), and the Grun Holle restaurant (unless you just want a beer) a miss if you go... /end self-indulgent repost/ Kendt --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote > Kyalami is wrong in GPL, T2 for instance is pretty easy one in real life. They changed the banking of Barbeque Bend (T2) in 1968. > Watkins Glen is wrong too from what i have seen of my 1971 videos. No, your version of Watkins Glen in that video is quite different. They redid the track to it's modern configuration in 1971. It used the same layout as what we have now for Winston Cup racing at Watkins Glen, minus the backstretch chicane but with an added chicane up in the esses. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

You sure?, cause they have the pits in the same place, the uphill is the same, and the carusell? is the same. Its just that the turns are not as much or more and the elevation is completely wrong, after the carusell, its much more uphill then in gpl. And the last turn is really low, and then its lots of uphill. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FsCH8.20722$[email hidden]... > >"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Kyalami is wrong in GPL, T2 for instance is pretty easy one in reallife.

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> > They changed the banking of Barbeque Bend (T2) in 1968. > > > Watkins Glen is wrong too from what i have seen of my 1971 videos. > > > No, your version of Watkins Glen in that video is quite different. They > redid the track to it's modern configuration in 1971. It used the same > layout as what we have now for Winston Cup racing at Watkins Glen, minus

the

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> backstretch chicane but with an added chicane up in the esses. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

I remember walking the track in 70 or 71 with the family. When we came to the exit of the boot I wanted to go down that way but everyone else said something like, there's too many hippies (or something like that) down that way. But any way.. Living only an hour away and my father racing in SCCA from 64-87, and him flagging when he wasn't racing up to a couple years ago,... more or less you could say I pretty much lived at the track. The track layout hasn't changed since 1971. It's a bit wider now and the inner loop is there and there are far fewer trees though.... The graphics in the GPL version are wrong and the elevation changes of the track are wrong and many of the cambers are wrong, but the layout is right and it seems the lengths of each section are right. The programmer did a fantastic job of it with the little time he spent and I thank him for what he did do :-) If I knew what I was doing and if I wasn't afraid of screwing up, I'd take it on to correct everything. And I wish someone would take it upon them selves to do just that. The GPL Walkins Glen 1971 is a very fun track as is but it would be that much better if it was righted. -- DAMN IT! Someone set up a LAN event in or near the Fingerlakes region of NY "Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tLmH8.8802$[email hidden]... > Kyalami is wrong in GPL, T2 for instance is pretty easy one in real life. > Watkins Glen is wrong too from what i have seen of my 1971 videos. > The Ring isnt so good as people claim i think. > >

hmm.. someone is going to have to post a link to the track. My version doesn't have the chacain in the esses. I do remember it but I don't think it was there in 71. Maybe a couple three years latter though. I remember watching from up top of the club house and seeing the cars "Jump" it. So... does you're version have the chacain? -- DAMN IT! Someone set up a LAN event in or near the Fingerlakes region of NY "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FsCH8.20722$[email hidden]... > > > Watkins Glen is wrong too from what i have seen of my 1971 videos. > > > No, your version of Watkins Glen in that video is quite different. They > redid the track to it's modern configuration in 1971. It used the same > layout as what we have now for Winston Cup racing at Watkins Glen, minus the > backstretch chicane but with an added chicane up in the esses. > >

>"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote > You sure?, cause they have the pits in the same place, the uphill is the > same, and the carusell? is the same. Well if you saw a video from 1971, then it was the new track configuration ;) http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=6108&c=0 The configration stayed similar in that about half of the track is the same, but after exiting the chute you would go in a different part of the circuit. The pits have actually moved to the next corner, but it looks as if they stayed at the same place (before the left bend entering the esses). > Its just that the turns are not as much or more and the elevation is > completely wrong, after the carusell, its much more uphill then in gpl.And > the last turn is really low, and then its lots of uphill. Well I would say, the track was in 67 much more narrower then what we have in GPL (watch something like Nine Days in Summer). Perhaps the video you saw wasn't of 1971, you know ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote > hmm.. someone is going to have to post a link to the track. Myversion > doesn't have the chacain in the esses. Hmm yeah I was thinking about it and iirc they added the chicane up late in T2 a couple of years later after the new track. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HnRH8.22858$[email hidden]... > >"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote > > You sure?, cause they have the pits in the same place, the uphill is the > > same, and the carusell? is the same. > > Well if you saw a video from 1971, then it was the new track configuration > ;) Hm.. maybe it was the new layout then.. Since Porsche 917 wasnt really out in 1967 =)