momo wheel vs. ms wheel - the difference please

I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel for about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals ok? There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks!

"Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel for > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals ok? > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks!

I'm contemplating a similar move - but having seen the momo in the flesh at a local PC world - the wheel looks lovely - but the pedals are a disgrace. The MSFF probably has the best pedals of the plastic-brigade - before splashing out for BRD etc - but the pedals on the Momo are shocking. The pivot in the wrong place and have a TINY ammount of travel Doug

On Sun, 2 Jun 2002 10:23:04 -0400, "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately >windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave >correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel for >about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much >better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for >long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals ok? >There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech >pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks!

I have both the original LWFF and the Momo (impulse buy). The wheel is nice, but not worth the price, IMO. I'd go with the MS wheel for now since it's cheap, and it seems as if another generation of wheels is around the corner. I'd be interested in hearing your problems with the LWFF and XP. I use it with Win2000 and it's fine. I'm using XP on the machine with the MOMO, and thinking about putting it on the machine that currently has the LWFF.

The pedals are the same are they not? They have a fancy coating, but underneath, they are the same shape, size and lack of travel of the regular Logi pedals. Marc "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel for > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals ok? > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > >

The MOMO wheel itself is great - far superior to any other FF wheel (and much, much better made than the earlier LWFF wheel...with better feel and less "grittiness" than the MS wheel). The MOMO pedals, while better than the LWFF and MS pedals, aren't nearly good enough, IMO. The good news is that the TSW (Thomas) pedals can be incorporated into the MOMO wiring (the pots have to be changed), or--for some, but not all games--be used as a second controller ID, at least in WinME (you must leave the MOMO pedals connected but just lying on the floor). I have the former setup (with the pedal pads transferred to the TSW pedal arms) and it is the most controllable setup I have ever experienced...and my other controller is a $4000 ECCI non-FF setup. I imagine the excellent BRD pedals could also be made to work with the MOMO wheel. --Steve Smith "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel for > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals ok? > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > >

I own and use both. Here is how I feel about the two: We'll start with the pedals. The MSFFW has what I consider the best pedals available in a consumer-class controller. They are comfortable and reliable. They have optical pots. In 2 years they have never stuck, jumped or presented ANY problems whatsoever. The Logitech pedals, however, are nearly as bad as the originals. They still should have "International Harvester" written on the side because they feel like tractor pedals. The pedals have a tendancy to stick, and sometimes don't return to the top-most position completely. There are various fixes for this out on the net, but it just emphasizes the poor design and construction in the pedals. The swivel pedals are an attempt to correct for the nearly straight-down thrust of the pedal shafts, IMHO. Nice try. No matter how you swivel it, the thrust-angle of the Logitech Pedals is better reserved for Tractors. The swivels are also hinged at the wrong geometry point (IMHO) but I suspect it may not be any better anywhere else. This is a shame considering this is a $200 Wheel/Pedal set. I truly find the Logitech pedals disgusting for a $200 controller. Finally, the cable that goes from the Logitech pedals to the wheel is WAY TOO SHORT! If you have a very large desk like I do, this WILL be an issue for you. I know of no way around the problem at this time other than to fit within it's constraints, however you have to do it. The MSFFW has a much longer cord, and in fact may be just a standard telephone cable. It looks like one. I've never had a problem with the length so I've never had to address it with the MSFFW. Please - Just because it _looks_ like a telephone cord don't change it based on my comments here :) I could be wrong! If you drive with your chair real high, and your legs dangling down to the pedals, and like pushing nearly straight up and down on them, then you may like the Logitech pedals :) Personally, I prefer to use my feet only, swiveling at the ankle. I think that makes me normal :) Now, on to the Wheel's. The MSFFW is a lot more solid than initial impressions give. It feels "Plastiky", but as you use it you forget about it. It's solid, and extremely reliable. It also uses optical encoders so I've never, in several years, experienced a single jump, skip or other typical problem you'd have with potentiometers. The shifters are reliable, though larger paddles would be nice. The shaft has little play in it, and it remains this way after 2 years of hard use. I have to admit, this suprises me a bit. The power is fine, and should be sufficient for anyone. It has gears, so it inevitable that it has a bit of grind to it, but it wears in nicely and you don't notice it after a while. It can tend to chatter a bit when neutral and with light or no hand pressure. I think this is just because the tolerances inside the mechanism are very tight and there is no slop. The clamping system is as easy as they get, and in 99% of the cases strong enough to keep it in place. However, if you get into hard-wrangling with the wheel, such as trying to correct a snap-spin, it can move around on the desk on you. It is, however, very easy to just slide back into position. I had a little trouble with this at the Dover race yesterday when I spun the wheels on a restart. In my efforts to correct the spin, the wheel moved considerably on me and prevented me from stopping from going all the way around. Had it stayed put, I would have just left a snake on the track and went on about my business. The higher you have the FF torque set, the more likely it is to be a problem in a circumstance like this. This is NOT a really big deal, and like I said 99% of the time the mounting system is fine. It is definitely convenient. The Logitech Momo wheel is a class-act all the way. There is absolutely ZERO slop in the shaft, and I suspect this is due to the Ball-Bearing supports. The leather wrapping is ok, but IMHO if it would cut way down on the cost of the wheel could be done without. The buttons are well placed, but are a much longer reach than the MSFFW and take a bit of getting used to. The shifter padels are first-rate. The are metal, and terminate solidly agains stops built into the system. I hate paddles that use the travel-limit of the switches as their stops. It doesn't feel right, and can't help but increase wear on the assembly. Logitech did this very well. The FF is smooth and powerful. Again, it is gear driven, so a small amount of grind is to be expected. It wears in well though and you don't notice it after a while. The Logitech doesn't seem to suffer from the centered, light-touch rattles that the MSFFW does. I suspect this is because of the bearings and the heavier weight of the Logitech's metal basis for the wheel assembly. The mounting system is not as quick as the MSFFW, but it will definetely stay-put. There is an option for a third bolt-down, but I don't think it's necessary and don't particlarly won't to drill a hole in my desk :) The Profile Software This one is easy. The Logitech wins HANDS-DOWN! The MS Profile Software (SideWinder 4.0 - USB Devices Only) is old, creaky and hasn't been truly updated in years. Not even minor patches! The SideWinder software has the crudest method for changing profiles that I've ever seen or likely ever will see. You actually have to open the Game Controllers control panel, and set it from there. There is a taskbar icon, but it's useless. You cannot change profiles from the Taskbar icon! You can unload any loaded profiles, but not reload any. Whoever thought up this idea is an engineering idiot. The SideWinder 4.0 USB software will install and work fine in Windows XP and 2000. However, you will get an installation warning telling you that the software isn't compatible, and is designed for Windows 98 only. Here's a funny oddity. Though the SideWinder 4.0 software warns that it is not compatible, it has been WHQL certified by Microsoft... With the error IN PLACE! That's right, Microsoft's own software that tells you it is not compatible with other than Win98 systems has been WHQL certified for XP by Microsoft, and they didn't even bother to issue a patch to clear up the installation warning. I guess when you write the rules, and run the Lap, you can get away with anything :) I'd like to see any other manufacturer try that! The Logitech Profiler Softeware (Wingman) is about the best there is. Not only does it make creating and loading profiles easy, but it _automatically_ switches the proper controller into slot-1 in the system so you don't have to unplug/plug in controllers manually. This is saved with each game config. If I had to make one complaint about the Wingman software, it's that setting the preferences takes some study. They are scattered amongst several different dialogs, under different menu items. It can be confusing until you get used to it. In some cases, you can change the same setting in more than one place. Or, at least it seems that way. In all cases, there _is_ a difference in how the setting is applied, it's just not readily apparant. If Logitech were to go to a single-dialog preference system, with a tabbed dialog probably, the Wingman software would be perfect. There is one issue with the Momo Wheel that you should be aware of. There are varying opinions on why this problem exists, but the cure is the same. Use the latest Wingman software. The problem is that the Momo is, by default, off-center by about 5 degree's. IMHO, this is a design flaw in the default-state of the mechanicals. The folks on Logitech's Wingmanteam.com site (a first-class site for support) don't necessarily agree with me, but I'm not the only person that holds this opinion. The reason I say this is the _natural_ position of the mechanicals when the USB port is plugged in, and when the system resets the USB ports at start up, has about a 5 degree tilt to it. IMHO, if the mechanicals were designed and calibrated properly internally, a zero-state reset of the USB ports should result in the wheel resetting to a perfect centered position. This is all before the driver softeware is even loaded. Every other device I've ever owned, including the MSFFW, has a natural, default zero-driver reset state with the wheel perfectly centered. Another reason I say this is an engineering calibration issue is that the original CD software that came with the wheel did not compensate for this, and there was NO WAY in the software to reset the centering of the wheel. You had to live with it. However, the Wingman software team worked hard an long on this and eventually corrected the problem by using offseting techniques in the software. First by patch, and later by a new release of the software. It took several releases to get it right because it took a few to get it centered perfectly. Each release was a bit better until it was just right. I haven't used it yet, but I also understand that there is a new feature in the latest Wingman software that has a manual slider for centering the wheel on your particular computer. I actually requested this from the very start, but it took them a few releases to get it in there :) I haven't seen a recent Momo wheel, but I suspect they continue to have this problem. I don't think they can fix it now, because it's too late. It's been adjusted for in the Wingman software, and if they re-calibrate the zero-state of the mechanicals the Wingman software will just pull it back out of center again. Again, I cannot say this for sure because I have not seen a recent wheel. Mine is an initial-shipment wheel. Please bear in mind that while I have talked to several others who share my opinion on the above subject, it is MY OPINION and may not be accurate. It is just the logical conclusion I come to given all the facts. I have a pretty good background in syncro/servo/resolver mechanicals and electronics (from my Navy days), and it just seems like the likely conclusion. THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM IN REAL LIFE ANY LONGER BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN RESOLVED. I thought I would mention it mainly due to the amount of chatter on the wingmanteam.com and other discussion boards where this has been brought up. Resolution The Logitech Momo has an advantage over the MSFFW in that it has higher resolution. The Momo has, If I remember correctly, 1024 steps in both the wheels and pedals. This because while the Logitech is a digital device, it uses analog pots. The MSFFW on the otherhand has only 64 steps for the pedals, and 512 steps for the wheel. This is because the MSFFW uses true optical encoders instead of pots. This is great for reliability and stability, but since optical sensors have discreet steps instead of infinitely adjustable analog wipers, the resolution is limited to what the optical device can sense. You _can_ notice this between the wheels, but it's not big enough of a deal to sway the purchase in one way or another, IMHO. I don't know how well the analog pots in the Momo have been holding up with users, but I've never, ever heard of anyone complain about a bad pot in a MSFFW. I'm sure it's possible, and I suspect it's happend, but I don't know of anyone personally nor have I ever read of one. Final Comments There's one design item that NO manufacturer does right, and that's the wiring. There's too much of it. It's fully understandable that there will never be a cordless FF Wheel. FF requires considerable power, and you can't 'beam' power to a device. Yet :) I doubt batteries could ever be practical. Instead, I think a reasonable solution would be to have the A/C cord come to a brick. From the brick, one wire would go to the USB port on the computer, one would go to the wheel, and one would go to the pedals. This would serve two purposes. First, it would keep the jumble of wires going to the Wheel down to a minimum. This is my biggest gripe with today's devices. When you want to move the wheel out of the way, you have all these damed wires connected to it. In a single-wire design, with a sturdy quick-disconnect, you could unplug the wheel and set it aside easily. Secondly, this would make the system more 'moduler' in design. Logitech could release a high-end set of custom pedals, for example, that could easily be plugged in and replace the current one's. Or, even third-parties could do it. Again, this is not a Logitech problem or a Microsoft problem. It's _everyone's_ problem. They are all equally as bad as far as I can tell. In the end, my Momo kit is in the box and the Microsoft MSFFW is on the desk. I've tried to replace that MSFFW a couple of times, but I always keep going back to it. The only reason I ever even consider replacing it is because of the truly pathetic SideWinder software that Microsoft seems more willing to fudge-certify than actuallyl update. On the other hand, if the Momo had workable pedals, the MSFFW would have been retired and set aside as an emergency wheel. For now, though, the MSFFW wins the battle due to the pedals. I suspect this is a lot more than you wanted or needed to know. Hope it helps :) -Larry "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel for > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals ok? > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > >

The Logitec pedals are indeed very, very bad. They hurt me so bad I had to box up the Momo and set it aside as an emergency spare wheel, and my MSFFW is remained in service for over 2 years now. -Larry "Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:addfmj$10elem$[email hidden]... > > "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]... > > I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheelfor > > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedalsok? > > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > I'm contemplating a similar move - but having seen the momo in the fleshat

Quoted text (9 lines)

> a local PC world - the wheel looks lovely - but the pedals are a disgrace. > > The MSFF probably has the best pedals of the plastic-brigade - before > splashing out for BRD etc - but the pedals on the Momo are shocking. The > pivot in the wrong place and have a TINY ammount of travel > > Doug > >

Thanks guys! Wow Larry!!! That was an impressive post. I would say you have an opinion! lol Thanks for taking the time to post and give me the info. I think I will keep my microsoft wheel for now. I will try to get the old logitech working too. It has thrustmaster nascar pro pedals hooked up to it. Brian "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CHyK8.40238$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I own and use both. Here is how I feel about the two: > > > We'll start with the pedals. > > > The MSFFW has what I consider the best pedals available in a

consumer-class > controller. They are comfortable and reliable. They have optical pots.In > 2 years they have never stuck, jumped or presented ANY problemswhatsoever. > > The Logitech pedals, however, are nearly as bad as the originals. They > still should have "International Harvester" written on the side becausethey > feel like tractor pedals. The pedals have a tendancy to stick, and > sometimes don't return to the top-most position completely. There are > various fixes for this out on the net, but it just emphasizes the poor > design and construction in the pedals. The swivel pedals are an attemptto > correct for the nearly straight-down thrust of the pedal shafts, IMHO.Nice > try. No matter how you swivel it, the thrust-angle of the Logitech Pedals > is better reserved for Tractors. The swivels are also hinged at the wrong > geometry point (IMHO) but I suspect it may not be any better anywhereelse. > This is a shame considering this is a $200 Wheel/Pedal set. I truly find > the Logitech pedals disgusting for a $200 controller. Finally, the cable > that goes from the Logitech pedals to the wheel is WAY TOO SHORT! If you > have a very large desk like I do, this WILL be an issue for you. I knowof

Quoted text (19 lines)

> no way around the problem at this time other than to fit within it's > constraints, however you have to do it. The MSFFW has a much longer cord, > and in fact may be just a standard telephone cable. It looks like one. > I've never had a problem with the length so I've never had to address it > with the MSFFW. Please - Just because it _looks_ like a telephone cord > don't change it based on my comments here :) I could be wrong! > > If you drive with your chair real high, and your legs dangling down to the > pedals, and like pushing nearly straight up and down on them, then you may > like the Logitech pedals :) Personally, I prefer to use my feet only, > swiveling at the ankle. I think that makes me normal :) > > > Now, on to the Wheel's. > > > The MSFFW is a lot more solid than initial impressions give. It feels > "Plastiky", but as you use it you forget about it. It's solid, and > extremely reliable. It also uses optical encoders so I've never, in

several > years, experienced a single jump, skip or other typical problem you'd have > with potentiometers. The shifters are reliable, though larger paddleswould > be nice. The shaft has little play in it, and it remains this way after 2 > years of hard use. I have to admit, this suprises me a bit. The power is > fine, and should be sufficient for anyone. It has gears, so it inevitable > that it has a bit of grind to it, but it wears in nicely and you don't > notice it after a while. It can tend to chatter a bit when neutral andwith > light or no hand pressure. I think this is just because the tolerances > inside the mechanism are very tight and there is no slop. The clamping > system is as easy as they get, and in 99% of the cases strong enough tokeep > it in place. However, if you get into hard-wrangling with the wheel, such > as trying to correct a snap-spin, it can move around on the desk on you.It > is, however, very easy to just slide back into position. I had a little > trouble with this at the Dover race yesterday when I spun the wheels on a > restart. In my efforts to correct the spin, the wheel moved considerablyon > me and prevented me from stopping from going all the way around. Had it > stayed put, I would have just left a snake on the track and went on aboutmy

Quoted text (8 lines)

> business. The higher you have the FF torque set, the more likely it is to > be a problem in a circumstance like this. This is NOT a really big deal, > and like I said 99% of the time the mounting system is fine. It is > definitely convenient. > > The Logitech Momo wheel is a class-act all the way. There is absolutely > ZERO slop in the shaft, and I suspect this is due to the Ball-Bearing > supports. The leather wrapping is ok, but IMHO if it would cut way down

on > the cost of the wheel could be done without. The buttons are well placed, > but are a much longer reach than the MSFFW and take a bit of getting used > to. The shifter padels are first-rate. The are metal, and terminate > solidly agains stops built into the system. I hate paddles that use the > travel-limit of the switches as their stops. It doesn't feel right, and > can't help but increase wear on the assembly. Logitech did this verywell. > The FF is smooth and powerful. Again, it is gear driven, so a smallamount > of grind is to be expected. It wears in well though and you don't noticeit > after a while. The Logitech doesn't seem to suffer from the centered, > light-touch rattles that the MSFFW does. I suspect this is because of the > bearings and the heavier weight of the Logitech's metal basis for thewheel > assembly. The mounting system is not as quick as the MSFFW, but it will > definetely stay-put. There is an option for a third bolt-down, but Idon't > think it's necessary and don't particlarly won't to drill a hole in mydesk

Quoted text (13 lines)

> :) > > > The Profile Software > > > This one is easy. The Logitech wins HANDS-DOWN! > > The MS Profile Software (SideWinder 4.0 - USB Devices Only) is old, creaky > and hasn't been truly updated in years. Not even minor patches! The > SideWinder software has the crudest method for changing profiles that I've > ever seen or likely ever will see. You actually have to open the Game > Controllers control panel, and set it from there. There is a taskbar

icon, > but it's useless. You cannot change profiles from the Taskbar icon! You > can unload any loaded profiles, but not reload any. Whoever thought upthis > idea is an engineering idiot. > > The SideWinder 4.0 USB software will install and work fine in Windows XPand > 2000. However, you will get an installation warning telling you that the > software isn't compatible, and is designed for Windows 98 only. > > Here's a funny oddity. Though the SideWinder 4.0 software warns that itis > not compatible, it has been WHQL certified by Microsoft... With the errorIN

Quoted text (10 lines)

> PLACE! That's right, Microsoft's own software that tells you it is not > compatible with other than Win98 systems has been WHQL certified for XP by > Microsoft, and they didn't even bother to issue a patch to clear up the > installation warning. > > I guess when you write the rules, and run the Lap, you can get away with > anything :) I'd like to see any other manufacturer try that! > > The Logitech Profiler Softeware (Wingman) is about the best there is. Not > only does it make creating and loading profiles easy, but it

_automatically_ > switches the proper controller into slot-1 in the system so you don't have > to unplug/plug in controllers manually. This is saved with each game > config. If I had to make one complaint about the Wingman software, it's > that setting the preferences takes some study. They are scattered amongst > several different dialogs, under different menu items. It can beconfusing > until you get used to it. In some cases, you can change the same settingin > more than one place. Or, at least it seems that way. In all cases, there > _is_ a difference in how the setting is applied, it's just not readily > apparant. If Logitech were to go to a single-dialog preference system,with > a tabbed dialog probably, the Wingman software would be perfect. > > There is one issue with the Momo Wheel that you should be aware of. There > are varying opinions on why this problem exists, but the cure is the same. > Use the latest Wingman software. The problem is that the Momo is, by > default, off-center by about 5 degree's. IMHO, this is a design flaw inthe > default-state of the mechanicals. The folks on Logitech's Wingmanteam.com > site (a first-class site for support) don't necessarily agree with me, but > I'm not the only person that holds this opinion. The reason I say this is > the _natural_ position of the mechanicals when the USB port is plugged in, > and when the system resets the USB ports at start up, has about a 5 degree > tilt to it. IMHO, if the mechanicals were designed and calibratedproperly > internally, a zero-state reset of the USB ports should result in the wheel > resetting to a perfect centered position. This is all before the driver > softeware is even loaded. Every other device I've ever owned, includingthe > MSFFW, has a natural, default zero-driver reset state with the wheel > perfectly centered. Another reason I say this is an engineeringcalibration > issue is that the original CD software that came with the wheel did not > compensate for this, and there was NO WAY in the software to reset the > centering of the wheel. You had to live with it. However, the Wingman > software team worked hard an long on this and eventually corrected the > problem by using offseting techniques in the software. First by patch,and > later by a new release of the software. It took several releases to getit > right because it took a few to get it centered perfectly. Each releasewas > a bit better until it was just right. I haven't used it yet, but I also > understand that there is a new feature in the latest Wingman software that > has a manual slider for centering the wheel on your particular computer.I > actually requested this from the very start, but it took them a fewreleases > to get it in there :) I haven't seen a recent Momo wheel, but I suspect > they continue to have this problem. I don't think they can fix it now, > because it's too late. It's been adjusted for in the Wingman software,and > if they re-calibrate the zero-state of the mechanicals the Wingmansoftware > will just pull it back out of center again. Again, I cannot say this for > sure because I have not seen a recent wheel. Mine is an initial-shipment > wheel. > > Please bear in mind that while I have talked to several others who sharemy > opinion on the above subject, it is MY OPINION and may not be accurate.It > is just the logical conclusion I come to given all the facts. I have a > pretty good background in syncro/servo/resolver mechanicals andelectronics > (from my Navy days), and it just seems like the likely conclusion. THISIS > NOT A PROBLEM IN REAL LIFE ANY LONGER BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN RESOLVED. I > thought I would mention it mainly due to the amount of chatter on the > wingmanteam.com and other discussion boards where this has been broughtup.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > Resolution > > The Logitech Momo has an advantage over the MSFFW in that it has higher > resolution. The Momo has, If I remember correctly, 1024 steps in both the > wheels and pedals. This because while the Logitech is a digital device,

it

Quoted text (8 lines)

> uses analog pots. The MSFFW on the otherhand has only 64 steps for the > pedals, and 512 steps for the wheel. This is because the MSFFW uses true > optical encoders instead of pots. This is great for reliability and > stability, but since optical sensors have discreet steps instead of > infinitely adjustable analog wipers, the resolution is limited to what the > optical device can sense. > > You _can_ notice this between the wheels, but it's not big enough of a

deal > to sway the purchase in one way or another, IMHO. I don't know how wellthe > analog pots in the Momo have been holding up with users, but I've never, > ever heard of anyone complain about a bad pot in a MSFFW. I'm sure it's > possible, and I suspect it's happend, but I don't know of anyonepersonally

Quoted text (9 lines)

> nor have I ever read of one. > > > Final Comments > > There's one design item that NO manufacturer does right, and that's the > wiring. There's too much of it. > > It's fully understandable that there will never be a cordless FF Wheel.

FF > requires considerable power, and you can't 'beam' power to a device. Yet:) > I doubt batteries could ever be practical. > > Instead, I think a reasonable solution would be to have the A/C cord cometo > a brick. From the brick, one wire would go to the USB port on thecomputer, > one would go to the wheel, and one would go to the pedals. This wouldserve > two purposes. First, it would keep the jumble of wires going to the Wheel > down to a minimum. This is my biggest gripe with today's devices. Whenyou > want to move the wheel out of the way, you have all these damed wires > connected to it. In a single-wire design, with a sturdy quick-disconnect, > you could unplug the wheel and set it aside easily. Secondly, this would > make the system more 'moduler' in design. Logitech could release ahigh-end

Quoted text (8 lines)

> set of custom pedals, for example, that could easily be plugged in and > replace the current one's. Or, even third-parties could do it. > > Again, this is not a Logitech problem or a Microsoft problem. It's > _everyone's_ problem. They are all equally as bad as far as I can tell. > > In the end, my Momo kit is in the box and the Microsoft MSFFW is on the > desk. I've tried to replace that MSFFW a couple of times, but I always

keep > going back to it. The only reason I ever even consider replacing it is > because of the truly pathetic SideWinder software that Microsoft seemsmore

Quoted text (19 lines)

> willing to fudge-certify than actuallyl update. > > On the other hand, if the Momo had workable pedals, the MSFFW would have > been retired and set aside as an emergency wheel. > > For now, though, the MSFFW wins the battle due to the pedals. > > I suspect this is a lot more than you wanted or needed to know. Hope it > helps :) > > -Larry > > > > "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]... > > I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel

for > > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedalsok?

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > > > > > > >

Tom, I think that's a good move. You'll probably never wear out the MSFFW. It's just a shame Microsoft won't update the SideWinder software. Watch. They'll release a new wheel, and it will have new, cool software that won't be available for the older one's :( -Larry "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6zzK8.6190$[email hidden]... > Thanks guys! Wow Larry!!! That was an impressive post. I would say youhave > an opinion! lol Thanks for taking the time to post and give me the info. I > think I will keep my microsoft wheel for now. I will try to get the old > logitech working too. It has thrustmaster nascar pro pedals hooked up toit.

Quoted text (28 lines)

> > Brian > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:CHyK8.40238$[email hidden]... > > I own and use both. Here is how I feel about the two: > > > > > > We'll start with the pedals. > > > > > > The MSFFW has what I consider the best pedals available in a > consumer-class > > controller. They are comfortable and reliable. They have optical pots. > In > > 2 years they have never stuck, jumped or presented ANY problems > whatsoever. > > > > The Logitech pedals, however, are nearly as bad as the originals. They > > still should have "International Harvester" written on the side because > they > > feel like tractor pedals. The pedals have a tendancy to stick, and > > sometimes don't return to the top-most position completely. There are > > various fixes for this out on the net, but it just emphasizes the poor > > design and construction in the pedals. The swivel pedals are an attempt > to > > correct for the nearly straight-down thrust of the pedal shafts, IMHO. > Nice > > try. No matter how you swivel it, the thrust-angle of the Logitech

Pedals > > is better reserved for Tractors. The swivels are also hinged at thewrong > > geometry point (IMHO) but I suspect it may not be any better anywhere > else. > > This is a shame considering this is a $200 Wheel/Pedal set. I trulyfind > > the Logitech pedals disgusting for a $200 controller. Finally, thecable > > that goes from the Logitech pedals to the wheel is WAY TOO SHORT! Ifyou > > have a very large desk like I do, this WILL be an issue for you. I know > of > > no way around the problem at this time other than to fit within it's > > constraints, however you have to do it. The MSFFW has a much longercord, > > and in fact may be just a standard telephone cable. It looks like one. > > I've never had a problem with the length so I've never had to address it > > with the MSFFW. Please - Just because it _looks_ like a telephone cord > > don't change it based on my comments here :) I could be wrong! > > > > If you drive with your chair real high, and your legs dangling down tothe > > pedals, and like pushing nearly straight up and down on them, then youmay

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > like the Logitech pedals :) Personally, I prefer to use my feet only, > > swiveling at the ankle. I think that makes me normal :) > > > > > > Now, on to the Wheel's. > > > > > > The MSFFW is a lot more solid than initial impressions give. It feels > > "Plastiky", but as you use it you forget about it. It's solid, and > > extremely reliable. It also uses optical encoders so I've never, in > several > > years, experienced a single jump, skip or other typical problem you'd

have > > with potentiometers. The shifters are reliable, though larger paddles > would > > be nice. The shaft has little play in it, and it remains this way after2 > > years of hard use. I have to admit, this suprises me a bit. The poweris > > fine, and should be sufficient for anyone. It has gears, so itinevitable

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > that it has a bit of grind to it, but it wears in nicely and you don't > > notice it after a while. It can tend to chatter a bit when neutral and > with > > light or no hand pressure. I think this is just because the tolerances > > inside the mechanism are very tight and there is no slop. The clamping > > system is as easy as they get, and in 99% of the cases strong enough to > keep > > it in place. However, if you get into hard-wrangling with the wheel,

such > > as trying to correct a snap-spin, it can move around on the desk on you. > It > > is, however, very easy to just slide back into position. I had a little > > trouble with this at the Dover race yesterday when I spun the wheels ona > > restart. In my efforts to correct the spin, the wheel movedconsiderably > on > > me and prevented me from stopping from going all the way around. Had it > > stayed put, I would have just left a snake on the track and went onabout > my > > business. The higher you have the FF torque set, the more likely it isto > > be a problem in a circumstance like this. This is NOT a really bigdeal,

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > and like I said 99% of the time the mounting system is fine. It is > > definitely convenient. > > > > The Logitech Momo wheel is a class-act all the way. There is absolutely > > ZERO slop in the shaft, and I suspect this is due to the Ball-Bearing > > supports. The leather wrapping is ok, but IMHO if it would cut way down > on > > the cost of the wheel could be done without. The buttons are well

placed, > > but are a much longer reach than the MSFFW and take a bit of gettingused

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > to. The shifter padels are first-rate. The are metal, and terminate > > solidly agains stops built into the system. I hate paddles that use the > > travel-limit of the switches as their stops. It doesn't feel right, and > > can't help but increase wear on the assembly. Logitech did this very > well. > > The FF is smooth and powerful. Again, it is gear driven, so a small > amount > > of grind is to be expected. It wears in well though and you don't

notice > it > > after a while. The Logitech doesn't seem to suffer from the centered, > > light-touch rattles that the MSFFW does. I suspect this is because ofthe

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > bearings and the heavier weight of the Logitech's metal basis for the > wheel > > assembly. The mounting system is not as quick as the MSFFW, but it will > > definetely stay-put. There is an option for a third bolt-down, but I > don't > > think it's necessary and don't particlarly won't to drill a hole in my > desk > > :) > > > > > > The Profile Software > > > > > > This one is easy. The Logitech wins HANDS-DOWN! > > > > The MS Profile Software (SideWinder 4.0 - USB Devices Only) is old,

creaky > > and hasn't been truly updated in years. Not even minor patches! The > > SideWinder software has the crudest method for changing profiles thatI've > > ever seen or likely ever will see. You actually have to open the Game > > Controllers control panel, and set it from there. There is a taskbar > icon, > > but it's useless. You cannot change profiles from the Taskbar icon!You

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > can unload any loaded profiles, but not reload any. Whoever thought up > this > > idea is an engineering idiot. > > > > The SideWinder 4.0 USB software will install and work fine in Windows XP > and > > 2000. However, you will get an installation warning telling you that

the > > software isn't compatible, and is designed for Windows 98 only. > > > > Here's a funny oddity. Though the SideWinder 4.0 software warns that it > is > > not compatible, it has been WHQL certified by Microsoft... With theerror > IN > > PLACE! That's right, Microsoft's own software that tells you it is not > > compatible with other than Win98 systems has been WHQL certified for XPby

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Microsoft, and they didn't even bother to issue a patch to clear up the > > installation warning. > > > > I guess when you write the rules, and run the Lap, you can get away with > > anything :) I'd like to see any other manufacturer try that! > > > > The Logitech Profiler Softeware (Wingman) is about the best there is.

Not > > only does it make creating and loading profiles easy, but it > _automatically_ > > switches the proper controller into slot-1 in the system so you don'thave > > to unplug/plug in controllers manually. This is saved with each game > > config. If I had to make one complaint about the Wingman software, it's > > that setting the preferences takes some study. They are scatteredamongst > > several different dialogs, under different menu items. It can be > confusing > > until you get used to it. In some cases, you can change the samesetting > in > > more than one place. Or, at least it seems that way. In all cases,there > > _is_ a difference in how the setting is applied, it's just not readily > > apparant. If Logitech were to go to a single-dialog preference system, > with > > a tabbed dialog probably, the Wingman software would be perfect. > > > > There is one issue with the Momo Wheel that you should be aware of.There > > are varying opinions on why this problem exists, but the cure is thesame. > > Use the latest Wingman software. The problem is that the Momo is, by > > default, off-center by about 5 degree's. IMHO, this is a design flaw in > the > > default-state of the mechanicals. The folks on Logitech'sWingmanteam.com > > site (a first-class site for support) don't necessarily agree with me,but > > I'm not the only person that holds this opinion. The reason I say thisis > > the _natural_ position of the mechanicals when the USB port is pluggedin, > > and when the system resets the USB ports at start up, has about a 5degree > > tilt to it. IMHO, if the mechanicals were designed and calibrated > properly > > internally, a zero-state reset of the USB ports should result in thewheel

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > resetting to a perfect centered position. This is all before the driver > > softeware is even loaded. Every other device I've ever owned, including > the > > MSFFW, has a natural, default zero-driver reset state with the wheel > > perfectly centered. Another reason I say this is an engineering > calibration > > issue is that the original CD software that came with the wheel did not > > compensate for this, and there was NO WAY in the software to reset the > > centering of the wheel. You had to live with it. However, the Wingman > > software team worked hard an long on this and eventually corrected the > > problem by using offseting techniques in the software. First by patch, > and > > later by a new release of the software. It took several releases to get > it > > right because it took a few to get it centered perfectly. Each release > was > > a bit better until it was just right. I haven't used it yet, but I also > > understand that there is a new feature in the latest Wingman software

that

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > has a manual slider for centering the wheel on your particular computer. > I > > actually requested this from the very start, but it took them a few > releases > > to get it in there :) I haven't seen a recent Momo wheel, but I suspect > > they continue to have this problem. I don't think they can fix it now, > > because it's too late. It's been adjusted for in the Wingman software, > and > > if they re-calibrate the zero-state of the mechanicals the Wingman > software > > will just pull it back out of center again. Again, I cannot say this

for > > sure because I have not seen a recent wheel. Mine is aninitial-shipment

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > wheel. > > > > Please bear in mind that while I have talked to several others who share > my > > opinion on the above subject, it is MY OPINION and may not be accurate. > It > > is just the logical conclusion I come to given all the facts. I have a > > pretty good background in syncro/servo/resolver mechanicals and > electronics > > (from my Navy days), and it just seems like the likely conclusion. THIS > IS > > NOT A PROBLEM IN REAL LIFE ANY LONGER BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN RESOLVED. I > > thought I would mention it mainly due to the amount of chatter on the > > wingmanteam.com and other discussion boards where this has been brought > up. > > > > > > Resolution > > > > The Logitech Momo has an advantage over the MSFFW in that it has higher > > resolution. The Momo has, If I remember correctly, 1024 steps in both

the > > wheels and pedals. This because while the Logitech is a digital device, > it > > uses analog pots. The MSFFW on the otherhand has only 64 steps for the > > pedals, and 512 steps for the wheel. This is because the MSFFW usestrue > > optical encoders instead of pots. This is great for reliability and > > stability, but since optical sensors have discreet steps instead of > > infinitely adjustable analog wipers, the resolution is limited to whatthe

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > optical device can sense. > > > > You _can_ notice this between the wheels, but it's not big enough of a > deal > > to sway the purchase in one way or another, IMHO. I don't know how well > the > > analog pots in the Momo have been holding up with users, but I've never, > > ever heard of anyone complain about a bad pot in a MSFFW. I'm sure it's > > possible, and I suspect it's happend, but I don't know of anyone > personally > > nor have I ever read of one. > > > > > > Final Comments > > > > There's one design item that NO manufacturer does right, and that's the > > wiring. There's too much of it. > > > > It's fully understandable that there will never be a cordless FF Wheel. > FF > > requires considerable power, and you can't 'beam' power to a device.

Yet > :) > > I doubt batteries could ever be practical. > > > > Instead, I think a reasonable solution would be to have the A/C cordcome > to > > a brick. From the brick, one wire would go to the USB port on the > computer, > > one would go to the wheel, and one would go to the pedals. This would > serve > > two purposes. First, it would keep the jumble of wires going to theWheel > > down to a minimum. This is my biggest gripe with today's devices. When > you > > want to move the wheel out of the way, you have all these damed wires > > connected to it. In a single-wire design, with a sturdyquick-disconnect, > > you could unplug the wheel and set it aside easily. Secondly, thiswould

Quoted text (31 lines)

> > make the system more 'moduler' in design. Logitech could release a > high-end > > set of custom pedals, for example, that could easily be plugged in and > > replace the current one's. Or, even third-parties could do it. > > > > Again, this is not a Logitech problem or a Microsoft problem. It's > > _everyone's_ problem. They are all equally as bad as far as I can tell. > > > > In the end, my Momo kit is in the box and the Microsoft MSFFW is on the > > desk. I've tried to replace that MSFFW a couple of times, but I always > keep > > going back to it. The only reason I ever even consider replacing it is > > because of the truly pathetic SideWinder software that Microsoft seems > more > > willing to fudge-certify than actuallyl update. > > > > On the other hand, if the Momo had workable pedals, the MSFFW would have > > been retired and set aside as an emergency wheel. > > > > For now, though, the MSFFW wins the battle due to the pedals. > > > > I suspect this is a lot more than you wanted or needed to know. Hope it > > helps :) > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]... > > > I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it.

Unfortunately > > > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > > > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel > for > > > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. Howmuch > > > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be aroundfor > > > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals > ok? > > > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the oldlogitech

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Sorry, I meant Brian :) -Larry "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oHzK8.40468$[email hidden]... > Tom, > > I think that's a good move. You'll probably never wear out the MSFFW.It's

Quoted text (12 lines)

> just a shame Microsoft won't update the SideWinder software. > > Watch. They'll release a new wheel, and it will have new, cool software > that won't be available for the older one's :( > > -Larry > > "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:6zzK8.6190$[email hidden]... > > Thanks guys! Wow Larry!!! That was an impressive post. I would say you > have > > an opinion! lol Thanks for taking the time to post and give me the info.

I

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > think I will keep my microsoft wheel for now. I will try to get the old > > logitech working too. It has thrustmaster nascar pro pedals hooked up to > it. > > > > Brian > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:CHyK8.40238$[email hidden]... > > > I own and use both. Here is how I feel about the two: > > > > > > > > > We'll start with the pedals. > > > > > > > > > The MSFFW has what I consider the best pedals available in a > > consumer-class > > > controller. They are comfortable and reliable. They have optical

pots. > > In > > > 2 years they have never stuck, jumped or presented ANY problems > > whatsoever. > > > > > > The Logitech pedals, however, are nearly as bad as the originals.They > > > still should have "International Harvester" written on the sidebecause > > they > > > feel like tractor pedals. The pedals have a tendancy to stick, and > > > sometimes don't return to the top-most position completely. There are > > > various fixes for this out on the net, but it just emphasizes the poor > > > design and construction in the pedals. The swivel pedals are anattempt

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > to > > > correct for the nearly straight-down thrust of the pedal shafts, IMHO. > > Nice > > > try. No matter how you swivel it, the thrust-angle of the Logitech > Pedals > > > is better reserved for Tractors. The swivels are also hinged at the > wrong > > > geometry point (IMHO) but I suspect it may not be any better anywhere > > else. > > > This is a shame considering this is a $200 Wheel/Pedal set. I truly > find > > > the Logitech pedals disgusting for a $200 controller. Finally, the > cable > > > that goes from the Logitech pedals to the wheel is WAY TOO SHORT! If > you > > > have a very large desk like I do, this WILL be an issue for you. I

know > > of > > > no way around the problem at this time other than to fit within it's > > > constraints, however you have to do it. The MSFFW has a much longer > cord, > > > and in fact may be just a standard telephone cable. It looks likeone. > > > I've never had a problem with the length so I've never had to addressit > > > with the MSFFW. Please - Just because it _looks_ like a telephonecord

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > > don't change it based on my comments here :) I could be wrong! > > > > > > If you drive with your chair real high, and your legs dangling down to > the > > > pedals, and like pushing nearly straight up and down on them, then you > may > > > like the Logitech pedals :) Personally, I prefer to use my feet only, > > > swiveling at the ankle. I think that makes me normal :) > > > > > > > > > Now, on to the Wheel's. > > > > > > > > > The MSFFW is a lot more solid than initial impressions give. It feels > > > "Plastiky", but as you use it you forget about it. It's solid, and > > > extremely reliable. It also uses optical encoders so I've never, in > > several > > > years, experienced a single jump, skip or other typical problem you'd > have > > > with potentiometers. The shifters are reliable, though larger paddles > > would > > > be nice. The shaft has little play in it, and it remains this way

after > 2 > > > years of hard use. I have to admit, this suprises me a bit. Thepower > is > > > fine, and should be sufficient for anyone. It has gears, so it > inevitable > > > that it has a bit of grind to it, but it wears in nicely and you don't > > > notice it after a while. It can tend to chatter a bit when neutraland > > with > > > light or no hand pressure. I think this is just because thetolerances > > > inside the mechanism are very tight and there is no slop. Theclamping > > > system is as easy as they get, and in 99% of the cases strong enoughto > > keep > > > it in place. However, if you get into hard-wrangling with the wheel, > such > > > as trying to correct a snap-spin, it can move around on the desk onyou. > > It > > > is, however, very easy to just slide back into position. I had alittle > > > trouble with this at the Dover race yesterday when I spun the wheelson > a > > > restart. In my efforts to correct the spin, the wheel moved > considerably > > on > > > me and prevented me from stopping from going all the way around. Hadit > > > stayed put, I would have just left a snake on the track and went on > about > > my > > > business. The higher you have the FF torque set, the more likely itis

Quoted text (7 lines)

> to > > > be a problem in a circumstance like this. This is NOT a really big > deal, > > > and like I said 99% of the time the mounting system is fine. It is > > > definitely convenient. > > > > > > The Logitech Momo wheel is a class-act all the way. There is

absolutely > > > ZERO slop in the shaft, and I suspect this is due to the Ball-Bearing > > > supports. The leather wrapping is ok, but IMHO if it would cut waydown

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > on > > > the cost of the wheel could be done without. The buttons are well > placed, > > > but are a much longer reach than the MSFFW and take a bit of getting > used > > > to. The shifter padels are first-rate. The are metal, and terminate > > > solidly agains stops built into the system. I hate paddles that use

the > > > travel-limit of the switches as their stops. It doesn't feel right,and

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > > can't help but increase wear on the assembly. Logitech did this very > > well. > > > The FF is smooth and powerful. Again, it is gear driven, so a small > > amount > > > of grind is to be expected. It wears in well though and you don't > notice > > it > > > after a while. The Logitech doesn't seem to suffer from the centered, > > > light-touch rattles that the MSFFW does. I suspect this is because of > the > > > bearings and the heavier weight of the Logitech's metal basis for the > > wheel > > > assembly. The mounting system is not as quick as the MSFFW, but it

will

Quoted text (23 lines)

> > > definetely stay-put. There is an option for a third bolt-down, but I > > don't > > > think it's necessary and don't particlarly won't to drill a hole in my > > desk > > > :) > > > > > > > > > The Profile Software > > > > > > > > > This one is easy. The Logitech wins HANDS-DOWN! > > > > > > The MS Profile Software (SideWinder 4.0 - USB Devices Only) is old, > creaky > > > and hasn't been truly updated in years. Not even minor patches! The > > > SideWinder software has the crudest method for changing profiles that > I've > > > ever seen or likely ever will see. You actually have to open the Game > > > Controllers control panel, and set it from there. There is a taskbar > > icon, > > > but it's useless. You cannot change profiles from the Taskbar icon! > You > > > can unload any loaded profiles, but not reload any. Whoever thought

up > > this > > > idea is an engineering idiot. > > > > > > The SideWinder 4.0 USB software will install and work fine in WindowsXP > > and > > > 2000. However, you will get an installation warning telling you that > the > > > software isn't compatible, and is designed for Windows 98 only. > > > > > > Here's a funny oddity. Though the SideWinder 4.0 software warns thatit > > is > > > not compatible, it has been WHQL certified by Microsoft... With the > error > > IN > > > PLACE! That's right, Microsoft's own software that tells you it isnot > > > compatible with other than Win98 systems has been WHQL certified forXP > by > > > Microsoft, and they didn't even bother to issue a patch to clear upthe > > > installation warning. > > > > > > I guess when you write the rules, and run the Lap, you can get awaywith

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > anything :) I'd like to see any other manufacturer try that! > > > > > > The Logitech Profiler Softeware (Wingman) is about the best there is. > Not > > > only does it make creating and loading profiles easy, but it > > _automatically_ > > > switches the proper controller into slot-1 in the system so you don't > have > > > to unplug/plug in controllers manually. This is saved with each game > > > config. If I had to make one complaint about the Wingman software,

it's

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > that setting the preferences takes some study. They are scattered > amongst > > > several different dialogs, under different menu items. It can be > > confusing > > > until you get used to it. In some cases, you can change the same > setting > > in > > > more than one place. Or, at least it seems that way. In all cases, > there > > > _is_ a difference in how the setting is applied, it's just not readily > > > apparant. If Logitech were to go to a single-dialog preference

system,

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > with > > > a tabbed dialog probably, the Wingman software would be perfect. > > > > > > There is one issue with the Momo Wheel that you should be aware of. > There > > > are varying opinions on why this problem exists, but the cure is the > same. > > > Use the latest Wingman software. The problem is that the Momo is, by > > > default, off-center by about 5 degree's. IMHO, this is a design flaw

in > > the > > > default-state of the mechanicals. The folks on Logitech's > Wingmanteam.com > > > site (a first-class site for support) don't necessarily agree with me, > but > > > I'm not the only person that holds this opinion. The reason I saythis

Quoted text (10 lines)

> is > > > the _natural_ position of the mechanicals when the USB port is plugged > in, > > > and when the system resets the USB ports at start up, has about a 5 > degree > > > tilt to it. IMHO, if the mechanicals were designed and calibrated > > properly > > > internally, a zero-state reset of the USB ports should result in the > wheel > > > resetting to a perfect centered position. This is all before the

driver > > > softeware is even loaded. Every other device I've ever owned,including > > the > > > MSFFW, has a natural, default zero-driver reset state with the wheel > > > perfectly centered. Another reason I say this is an engineering > > calibration > > > issue is that the original CD software that came with the wheel didnot > > > compensate for this, and there was NO WAY in the software to reset the > > > centering of the wheel. You had to live with it. However, theWingman > > > software team worked hard an long on this and eventually corrected the > > > problem by using offseting techniques in the software. First bypatch, > > and > > > later by a new release of the software. It took several releases toget > > it > > > right because it took a few to get it centered perfectly. Eachrelease > > was > > > a bit better until it was just right. I haven't used it yet, but Ialso > > > understand that there is a new feature in the latest Wingman software > that > > > has a manual slider for centering the wheel on your particularcomputer. > > I > > > actually requested this from the very start, but it took them a few > > releases > > > to get it in there :) I haven't seen a recent Momo wheel, but Isuspect > > > they continue to have this problem. I don't think they can fix itnow, > > > because it's too late. It's been adjusted for in the Wingmansoftware,

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > and > > > if they re-calibrate the zero-state of the mechanicals the Wingman > > software > > > will just pull it back out of center again. Again, I cannot say this > for > > > sure because I have not seen a recent wheel. Mine is an > initial-shipment > > > wheel. > > > > > > Please bear in mind that while I have talked to several others who

share > > my > > > opinion on the above subject, it is MY OPINION and may not beaccurate. > > It > > > is just the logical conclusion I come to given all the facts. I havea > > > pretty good background in syncro/servo/resolver mechanicals and > > electronics > > > (from my Navy days), and it just seems like the likely conclusion.THIS > > IS > > > NOT A PROBLEM IN REAL LIFE ANY LONGER BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN RESOLVED. I > > > thought I would mention it mainly due to the amount of chatter on the > > > wingmanteam.com and other discussion boards where this has beenbrought > > up. > > > > > > > > > Resolution > > > > > > The Logitech Momo has an advantage over the MSFFW in that it hashigher > > > resolution. The Momo has, If I remember correctly, 1024 steps in both > the > > > wheels and pedals. This because while the Logitech is a digitaldevice, > > it > > > uses analog pots. The MSFFW on the otherhand has only 64 steps forthe

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > pedals, and 512 steps for the wheel. This is because the MSFFW uses > true > > > optical encoders instead of pots. This is great for reliability and > > > stability, but since optical sensors have discreet steps instead of > > > infinitely adjustable analog wipers, the resolution is limited to what > the > > > optical device can sense. > > > > > > You _can_ notice this between the wheels, but it's not big enough of a > > deal > > > to sway the purchase in one way or another, IMHO. I don't know how

well > > the > > > analog pots in the Momo have been holding up with users, but I'venever, > > > ever heard of anyone complain about a bad pot in a MSFFW. I'm sureit's

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > possible, and I suspect it's happend, but I don't know of anyone > > personally > > > nor have I ever read of one. > > > > > > > > > Final Comments > > > > > > There's one design item that NO manufacturer does right, and that's

the > > > wiring. There's too much of it. > > > > > > It's fully understandable that there will never be a cordless FFWheel.

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > FF > > > requires considerable power, and you can't 'beam' power to a device. > Yet > > :) > > > I doubt batteries could ever be practical. > > > > > > Instead, I think a reasonable solution would be to have the A/C cord > come > > to > > > a brick. From the brick, one wire would go to the USB port on the > > computer, > > > one would go to the wheel, and one would go to the pedals. This would > > serve > > > two purposes. First, it would keep the jumble of wires going to the > Wheel > > > down to a minimum. This is my biggest gripe with today's devices.

When

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > you > > > want to move the wheel out of the way, you have all these damed wires > > > connected to it. In a single-wire design, with a sturdy > quick-disconnect, > > > you could unplug the wheel and set it aside easily. Secondly, this > would > > > make the system more 'moduler' in design. Logitech could release a > > high-end > > > set of custom pedals, for example, that could easily be plugged in and > > > replace the current one's. Or, even third-parties could do it. > > > > > > Again, this is not a Logitech problem or a Microsoft problem. It's > > > _everyone's_ problem. They are all equally as bad as far as I can

tell. > > > > > > In the end, my Momo kit is in the box and the Microsoft MSFFW is onthe > > > desk. I've tried to replace that MSFFW a couple of times, but Ialways > > keep > > > going back to it. The only reason I ever even consider replacing itis > > > because of the truly pathetic SideWinder software that Microsoft seems > > more > > > willing to fudge-certify than actuallyl update. > > > > > > On the other hand, if the Momo had workable pedals, the MSFFW wouldhave > > > been retired and set aside as an emergency wheel. > > > > > > For now, though, the MSFFW wins the battle due to the pedals. > > > > > > I suspect this is a lot more than you wanted or needed to know. Hopeit

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > helps :) > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]... > > > > I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. > Unfortunately > > > > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to

behave > > > > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ffwheel > > for > > > > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How > much > > > > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around > for > > > > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are thepedals

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > ok? > > > > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old > logitech > > > > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too. Try downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had with N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installed along with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They do really suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I don't think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red's cable system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been tempted many times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get the old red to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheel that I could not fix! FatnSlo 4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/ "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel for > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals ok? > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > >

There is no customer service, alas. Logi won't even sell you any spare parts. "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pzQK8.187788$[email hidden]... > I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too. Try > downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had with > N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installedalong > with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They doreally > suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I don't > think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red's cable > system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been temptedmany > times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get the oldred

Quoted text (12 lines)

> to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheel that I > could not fix! > > FatnSlo > > 4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/ > > "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]... > > I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it. Unfortunately > > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel

for > > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. How much > > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be around for > > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedalsok?

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the old logitech > > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > > > > > > >

I'm glad the MSFFW is so reliable. Can you even _imagine_ trying to get service or parts on an MS hardware product? I bought the Best Buy $9.95 "Bring it in broke, and walk out with a new one" warranty when I got my MSFFW. It paid big on the ratty Logitech FF GP I bought. Had to use it twice in one week! Finally, we both gave up and I just returned it completely and got another MSFFW instead :) -Larry "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tOSK8.27585$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> There is no customer service, alas. Logi won't even sell you any spare > parts. > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:pzQK8.187788$[email hidden]... > > I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too. Try > > downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had

with

Quoted text (20 lines)

> > N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installed > along > > with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They do > really > > suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I don't > > think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red's cable > > system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been tempted > many > > times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get the old > red > > to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheel that I > > could not fix! > > > > FatnSlo > > > > 4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/ > > > > "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:dHpK8.109856$[email hidden]... > > > I used to have the old red logitech wheel and I loved it.

Unfortunately > > > windows xp did not love it. I just could not get the forces to behave > > > correctly. So it sits here in my closet. I bought a microsoft ff wheel > for > > > about $79 U.S. and it works fine. It really is not a bad wheel. Howmuch > > > better do you think the momo wheel is? I know it will not be aroundfor > > > long. Some places do not even carry it any longer. Also are the pedals > ok? > > > There does not seem to be much travel. I could not use the oldlogitech

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > pedals. I wired in my thrustmaster pedals. Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

If you don't fry the cirquit board your LWFF should be working for a looooong time. One typical fault are off-jumping cables, when the plastic bushings get too slacky. This can damage the plastic pulleys on long terms. Since you are on BB's already, this should not be an issue for you. Pots wear out naturally, but MikeT's HQ spare pots should take care of that. MikeT also converted the wheel paddles to proper switches instead of this lousy diphragm-thingies. Spare cables are available too, sooner or later you need them. So, no need to worry :-) Cya JensSchumi BTW: Probably the right time to browse ebay for a spare unit? They are still around and quite cheap. On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:45:09 GMT, "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too. Try >downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had with >N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installed along >with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They do really >suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I don't >think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red's cable >system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been tempted many >times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get the old red >to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheel that I >could not fix! > >FatnSlo > >4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/

--------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ GPLRank: -14.82 Monsters of GPL: sub 95

Microsoft's policy is to take in broken or non-working hardware in exchange for the same or newer version. The telephone number is in the material received with the item. I've had to replace three of the IntelliMouse Optical Explorer mice because of the problem with the cord. They ship it, generally two-day delivery, by Airborne in the U.S. -- Chris H. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3XVK8.44432$[email hidden]... > I'm glad the MSFFW is so reliable. Can you even _imagine_ trying to get > service or parts on an MS hardware product? > > I bought the Best Buy $9.95 "Bring it in broke, and walk out with a new one" > warranty when I got my MSFFW. > > It paid big on the ratty Logitech FF GP I bought. Had to use it twice in > one week! Finally, we both gave up and I just returned it completely and > got another MSFFW instead :) > > -Larry

Somebody could probably make a nice "chop shop" business out of buying up unserviceable Logi products, canibalizing them for parts, and selling the remains to guys like us who can't get any satisfaction from Logi. "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > If you don't fry the cirquit board your LWFF should be working for alooooong > time. > One typical fault are off-jumping cables, when the plastic bushings gettoo > slacky. This can damage the plastic pulleys on long terms. > Since you are on BB's already, this should not be an issue for you. > Pots wear out naturally, but MikeT's HQ spare pots should take care ofthat. > MikeT also converted the wheel paddles to proper switches instead of thislousy

Quoted text (9 lines)

> diphragm-thingies. > Spare cables are available too, sooner or later you need them. > > So, no need to worry :-) > > Cya > JensSchumi > > BTW: Probably the right time to browse ebay for a spare unit? They are

still

Quoted text (7 lines)

> around and quite cheap. > > > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:45:09 GMT, "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too. Try > >downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had

with > >N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installedalong > >with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They doreally > >suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I don't > >think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red's cable > >system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been temptedmany > >times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get the oldred

Quoted text (13 lines)

> >to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheel that I > >could not fix! > > > >FatnSlo > > > >4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/ > > --------------------------------------------- > LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: > http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ > > GPLRank: -14.82 > Monsters of GPL: sub 95

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cy2L8.1886$[email hidden]... > Somebody could probably make a nice "chop shop" business out of buying up > unserviceable Logi products, canibalizing them for parts, and selling the > remains to guys like us who can't get any satisfaction from Logi. just deals is still selling reconditioned LWFF's. I had mine for over two years and it worked great, til I decided to try and 'fix' it more....still got all the pieces in a cardboard box....Seems I repair things about as well as I drive. dave henrie

Hi Jens! I Believe I was one of the first to buy a bearing kit from you. After a bit of a hassle with the funds I ended up sending you some of it in cash if you can remember that. Anyways, I love the bearing kit. Because it was one of the originals I did have the problem of the small spindle collapsing, but I took a bearing from one of my RC cars and gouged out the inside of the spindle to make it fit so now the cable does not jump over itself. I am a bit worried though because the spindle did crack a little, but it seems ok so far. From my understating Mike T is no longer in the pot and pedal business. I bought one of his last two pots. It did not last long though. Because of the taper machined to the shaft of the pot I don't think I filed it down enough and ended up forcing it in. I believe I damaged the pot internally because when I turn the pot to the far left the raw numbers begin to jump way up instead of going smoothly down. I found a large electronics part store in my area that had lots of high quality 100k pots so I have a lifetime supply at only $1.50ea. A question on the CH 100K pots though. I have bought two so far and I can't use them. From 0k to 100k the pot only travels 225 degrees while the other pots I found take 360 degrees from 0k to 100k. Anyone you know that has tried to use these successfully? Last week I installed some switches I bought from Radio Shack for my shifters. The old tin ones had cracked, so now I have trouble free shifting again! Thanks for the tip about e-bay. Hopefully I can find one so I will have no worries! Thanks, FatnSlo aka Steve Adams "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > If you don't fry the cirquit board your LWFF should be working for alooooong > time. > One typical fault are off-jumping cables, when the plastic bushings gettoo > slacky. This can damage the plastic pulleys on long terms. > Since you are on BB's already, this should not be an issue for you. > Pots wear out naturally, but MikeT's HQ spare pots should take care ofthat. > MikeT also converted the wheel paddles to proper switches instead of thislousy

Quoted text (9 lines)

> diphragm-thingies. > Spare cables are available too, sooner or later you need them. > > So, no need to worry :-) > > Cya > JensSchumi > > BTW: Probably the right time to browse ebay for a spare unit? They are

still

Quoted text (7 lines)

> around and quite cheap. > > > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:45:09 GMT, "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too. Try > >downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had

with > >N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installedalong > >with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They doreally > >suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I don't > >think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red's cable > >system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been temptedmany > >times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get the oldred

Quoted text (13 lines)

> >to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheel that I > >could not fix! > > > >FatnSlo > > > >4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/ > > --------------------------------------------- > LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: > http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ > > GPLRank: -14.82 > Monsters of GPL: sub 95

Hmmmn, I wonder who's doing the "reconditioning"? I think they have child-labor laws in Switzerland.... "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Tb3L8.58994$0A2.46348@rwcrnsc54... > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:cy2L8.1886$[email hidden]... > > Somebody could probably make a nice "chop shop" business out of buyingup > > unserviceable Logi products, canibalizing them for parts, and sellingthe > > remains to guys like us who can't get any satisfaction from Logi. > > just deals is still selling reconditioned LWFF's. I had mine for over > two years and it worked great, til I decided to try and 'fix' it > more....still got all the pieces in a cardboard box....Seems I repairthings > about as well as I drive. > dave henrie > >

That's IN warranty. How about OUT of warranty... Of course they have to fix it in warranty. It's the law :) -Larry "Chris H." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CfYK8.114087$[email hidden]... > Microsoft's policy is to take in broken or non-working hardware inexchange

Quoted text (17 lines)

> for the same or newer version. The telephone number is in the material > received with the item. I've had to replace three of the IntelliMouse > Optical Explorer mice because of the problem with the cord. They ship it, > generally two-day delivery, by Airborne in the U.S. > -- > Chris H. > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3XVK8.44432$[email hidden]... > > I'm glad the MSFFW is so reliable. Can you even _imagine_ trying to get > > service or parts on an MS hardware product? > > > > I bought the Best Buy $9.95 "Bring it in broke, and walk out with a new > one" > > warranty when I got my MSFFW. > > > > It paid big on the ratty Logitech FF GP I bought. Had to use it twice

in > > one week! Finally, we both gave up and I just returned it completelyand > > got another MSFFW instead :) > > > > -Larry > > >

Hi Steve, Somehow this doesn't read like an unbridled endorsement of the LWFF.... --anotherSteve "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dJ8L8.108866$[email hidden]... > Hi Jens! I Believe I was one of the first to buy a bearing kit from you. > After a bit of a hassle with the funds I ended up sending you some of itin

Quoted text (9 lines)

> cash if you can remember that. Anyways, I love the bearing kit. Because it > was one of the originals I did have the problem of the small spindle > collapsing, but I took a bearing from one of my RC cars and gouged out the > inside of the spindle to make it fit so now the cable does not jump over > itself. I am a bit worried though because the spindle did crack a little, > but it seems ok so far. > > From my understating Mike T is no longer in the pot and pedal business. I > bought one of his last two pots. It did not last long though. Because of

the > taper machined to the shaft of the pot I don't think I filed it downenough > and ended up forcing it in. I believe I damaged the pot internally because > when I turn the pot to the far left the raw numbers begin to jump way up > instead of going smoothly down. I found a large electronics part store inmy > area that had lots of high quality 100k pots so I have a lifetime supplyat > only $1.50ea. > > A question on the CH 100K pots though. I have bought two so far and Ican't > use them. From 0k to 100k the pot only travels 225 degrees while the other > pots I found take 360 degrees from 0k to 100k. Anyone you know that has > tried to use these successfully? > > Last week I installed some switches I bought from Radio Shack for my > shifters. The old tin ones had cracked, so now I have trouble freeshifting

Quoted text (21 lines)

> again! > > Thanks for the tip about e-bay. Hopefully I can find one so I will have no > worries! > > Thanks, > FatnSlo > aka Steve Adams > > "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > If you don't fry the cirquit board your LWFF should be working for a > looooong > > time. > > One typical fault are off-jumping cables, when the plastic bushings get > too > > slacky. This can damage the plastic pulleys on long terms. > > Since you are on BB's already, this should not be an issue for you. > > Pots wear out naturally, but MikeT's HQ spare pots should take care of > that. > > MikeT also converted the wheel paddles to proper switches instead of

this

Quoted text (24 lines)

> lousy > > diphragm-thingies. > > Spare cables are available too, sooner or later you need them. > > > > So, no need to worry :-) > > > > Cya > > JensSchumi > > > > BTW: Probably the right time to browse ebay for a spare unit? They are > still > > around and quite cheap. > > > > > > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:45:09 GMT, "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too. Try > > >downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had > with > > >N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installed > along > > >with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They do > really > > >suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I

don't > > >think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red'scable > > >system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been tempted > many > > >times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get theold > red > > >to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheel thatI

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > >could not fix! > > > > > >FatnSlo > > > > > >4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/ > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: > > http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ > > > > GPLRank: -14.82 > > Monsters of GPL: sub 95 > >

No, I just get a bit obsessive about the wheel, always wanting to make sure it is performing top notch. I don't think anything has ever really broken on the wheel. The only thing that has worn out is the pot, which happens with about any wheel, and the shift buttons were wearing out, but still worked. My reason for replacing them was to assure I don't get an extra down shift when in a critical area that might cause me to spin. FatnSlo "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DPcL8.3075$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Hi Steve, > > Somehow this doesn't read like an unbridled endorsement of the LWFF.... > > --anotherSteve > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dJ8L8.108866$[email hidden]... > > Hi Jens! I Believe I was one of the first to buy a bearing kit from you. > > After a bit of a hassle with the funds I ended up sending you some of it > in > > cash if you can remember that. Anyways, I love the bearing kit. Because

it > > was one of the originals I did have the problem of the small spindle > > collapsing, but I took a bearing from one of my RC cars and gouged outthe > > inside of the spindle to make it fit so now the cable does not jump over > > itself. I am a bit worried though because the spindle did crack alittle, > > but it seems ok so far. > > > > From my understating Mike T is no longer in the pot and pedal business.I > > bought one of his last two pots. It did not last long though. Because of > the > > taper machined to the shaft of the pot I don't think I filed it down > enough > > and ended up forcing it in. I believe I damaged the pot internallybecause > > when I turn the pot to the far left the raw numbers begin to jump wayup > > instead of going smoothly down. I found a large electronics part storein

Quoted text (8 lines)

> my > > area that had lots of high quality 100k pots so I have a lifetime supply > at > > only $1.50ea. > > > > A question on the CH 100K pots though. I have bought two so far and I > can't > > use them. From 0k to 100k the pot only travels 225 degrees while the

other

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > pots I found take 360 degrees from 0k to 100k. Anyone you know that has > > tried to use these successfully? > > > > Last week I installed some switches I bought from Radio Shack for my > > shifters. The old tin ones had cracked, so now I have trouble free > shifting > > again! > > > > Thanks for the tip about e-bay. Hopefully I can find one so I will have

no

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > worries! > > > > Thanks, > > FatnSlo > > aka Steve Adams > > > > "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > If you don't fry the cirquit board your LWFF should be working for a > > looooong > > > time. > > > One typical fault are off-jumping cables, when the plastic bushings

get

Quoted text (24 lines)

> > too > > > slacky. This can damage the plastic pulleys on long terms. > > > Since you are on BB's already, this should not be an issue for you. > > > Pots wear out naturally, but MikeT's HQ spare pots should take care of > > that. > > > MikeT also converted the wheel paddles to proper switches instead of > this > > lousy > > > diphragm-thingies. > > > Spare cables are available too, sooner or later you need them. > > > > > > So, no need to worry :-) > > > > > > Cya > > > JensSchumi > > > > > > BTW: Probably the right time to browse ebay for a spare unit? They are > > still > > > around and quite cheap. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:45:09 GMT, "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >I am curious to why you can't get the red LWFF to work in XP too.

Try

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > >downloading the beta 4.20 wingman drivers. They fixed a problem I had > > with > > > >N2002. My wheel has Jens bearing kit and a high quality pot installed > > along > > > >with new buttons for the shifters. I agree about the pedals. They do > > really > > > >suck. I wired in the same CH pedals Alison Hine did for GPL, but I > don't > > > >think they sell that version anymore. I still think the LWFF red's > cable > > > >system is better than the notchy feeling MOMO. I also have been

tempted > > many > > > >times to just buy a new wheel but always have found a way to get the > old > > red > > > >to work. I think I would cry if ever something broke on the wheelthat

Quoted text (17 lines)

> I > > > >could not fix! > > > > > > > >FatnSlo > > > > > > > >4.20 drivers: http://www.wingmanteam.com/files/releases/4_20/beta/ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > > LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: > > > http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ > > > > > > GPLRank: -14.82 > > > Monsters of GPL: sub 95 > > > > > >

LOL, Did you try with my manual? Cya JensSchumi On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 13:24:03 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote: >=> just deals is still selling reconditioned LWFF's. I had mine for over >two years and it worked great, til I decided to try and 'fix' it >more....still got all the pieces in a cardboard box....Seems I repair things >about as well as I drive. >dave henrie > --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ GPLRank: -14.82 Monsters of GPL: sub 95

Steve, if the spindle cracks you should fill it with hot glue to avoid further damage. Thx for the info on the CH-pots. I was not aware that they are only 225 deg. The pots you found, are they with flattened shaft? The MikeT pots are fine in my wheel. No problem so far. About forcing the thing in: Since quite awhile I only adjust the setscrew quite loose and put a drop of hotglue onto the shaft before applying the pot (yeah, I love that stuff). Works perfectly at no slack. Cya Jens On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:40:57 GMT, "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hi Jens! I Believe I was one of the first to buy a bearing kit from you. >After a bit of a hassle with the funds I ended up sending you some of it in<snip> --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ GPLRank: -14.82 Monsters of GPL: sub 95

Steve, depends how old your wheel is and how hard/often you use it. There are typical problems occuring, but they can be healed w/o spare parts supply from Logitech (which is somehow limited, as we all know). From my own wheels (around 10 went through my hands within 4 years) I can report the following: 1 paddle shifter damaged by crack in diaphragm. I soldered the thing, today I would implant a micro-switch One steering pot gone by wear. Replaced by MikeT's Two throttle pots gone. Easily solved by exchanging throttle against brake pot, so the slider runs on a fresh section of the graphit layer. Fine for another year or two. One cirquit board fried: A lightning came down when I was just on the board with the soldering iron - bad luck :-( One cable set worn out. But not by wear, more by frequent assembling/s=disassembling not using the correct procedure. Not too bad, I suppose :-) Cya Jens On Wed, 05 Jun 2002 00:20:51 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden] wrote: >Hi Steve, > >Somehow this doesn't read like an unbridled endorsement of the LWFF.... > >--anotherSteve --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ GPLRank: -14.82 Monsters of GPL: sub 95

The pots I found fit the unit perfectly without any modifications. The pots have a switch, but it is past the throw needed for the wheel. I have 4 spares so I should be ok for years I hope. I would have liked to have loosened the set-screw when I installed MikeT's pot, but that would have required complete disassembly and I was too lazy. I did find where my steel cable had worn through the lining probably due to when the spindle was collapsing. I cut off the brittled lining at that point, but I am sure it will all start to come off now. I know you have replaced cables before. Any consensus on what is the best replacement? Steve "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve, > if the spindle cracks you should fill it with hot glue to avoid furtherdamage. > Thx for the info on the CH-pots. I was not aware that they are only 225deg. > The pots you found, are they with flattened shaft? > The MikeT pots are fine in my wheel. No problem so far. > About forcing the thing in: Since quite awhile I only adjust the setscrewquite > loose and put a drop of hotglue onto the shaft before applying the pot(yeah, I

Quoted text (9 lines)

> love that stuff). Works perfectly at no slack. > > Cya > Jens > > On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:40:57 GMT, "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Hi Jens! I Believe I was one of the first to buy a bearing kit from you. > >After a bit of a hassle with the funds I ended up sending you some of it

in

Quoted text (7 lines)

> <snip> > --------------------------------------------- > LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: > http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ > > GPLRank: -14.82 > Monsters of GPL: sub 95

I use replacement cables made from 7x7 strand stainless steel fishing line (in UK also called shark line) Unluckily I cannot get that material with nylon coating over here, but that's only a small backdraw (must be a bit careful when assembling). Cya JensSchumi On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:06:55 GMT, "FatnSlo" <> wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>The pots I found fit the unit perfectly without any modifications. The pots >have a switch, but it is past the throw needed for the wheel. I have 4 >spares so I should be ok for years I hope. I would have liked to have >loosened the set-screw when I installed MikeT's pot, but that would have >required complete disassembly and I was too lazy. I did find where my steel >cable had worn through the lining probably due to when the spindle was >collapsing. I cut off the brittled lining at that point, but I am sure it >will all start to come off now. I know you have replaced cables before. Any >consensus on what is the best replacement? > >Steve

--------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ GPLRank: -14.82 Monsters of GPL: sub 95