ISI does NASCAR????

Maybe this is old news, but this is the first I've heard of it - the July issue of PC Gamer has a one page story about NASCAR Thunder 2003 - which is being developed by ISI! It is also being produced by the former producer of NASCAR Heat. Not to take anything away from Papyrus or MGI, but I personally prefer ISI's physics and force feedback over the other two, and we know if it's from ISI it will be moddable. I think this is great news.

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:adehot$10d9r3$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Maybe this is old news, but this is the first I've heard of it - the > July issue of PC Gamer has a one page story about NASCAR Thunder 2003 - > which is being developed by ISI! It is also being produced by the > former producer of NASCAR Heat. Not to take anything away from Papyrus > or MGI, but I personally prefer ISI's physics and force feedback over > the other two, and we know if it's from ISI it will be moddable. I > think this is great news.

I thought the EA Nascar titles were being done by Tiburion Studios(John Madden Football) But since the F1 2001-2 titles for the consoles is NOT being coded by ISI, this could be a possibility. For nascar heat I have to turn off the FF or I get crazy occillations if I oversteer. However the FF in GPL is close enough to F1 2001 that either one would make me happy. Since N2002 uses the basic GPL FF, I wonder if the nature of Nascar is such that the FF effects aren't as prevalent. I will say I loved the strong effects with my now dead LWFF & N2002 while wrestling around Bristol. dave henrie

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:adehot$10d9r3$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Maybe this is old news, but this is the first I've heard of it - the > July issue of PC Gamer has a one page story about NASCAR Thunder 2003 - > which is being developed by ISI! It is also being produced by the > former producer of NASCAR Heat. Not to take anything away from Papyrus > or MGI, but I personally prefer ISI's physics and force feedback over > the other two, and we know if it's from ISI it will be moddable. I > think this is great news. >

I too like many parts of Heat, but after the blatant LIEING pre and post release about it's online problems and the carrot/horse act about how it was going to be fixed(which it never was) I wouldn't believe Ed Martin if I was looking at my watch and he said the correct time. This is one title I'll wait for a few months to see what's up before thinking about buying myself. My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due to licensing issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. John

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:adehot$10d9r3$[email hidden]... > > Maybe this is old news, but this is the first I've heard of it - the > > July issue of PC Gamer has a one page story about NASCAR Thunder 2003 - > > which is being developed by ISI! It is also being produced by the > > former producer of NASCAR Heat. Not to take anything away from Papyrus > > or MGI, but I personally prefer ISI's physics and force feedback over > > the other two, and we know if it's from ISI it will be moddable. I > > think this is great news. > > > > I too like many parts of Heat, but after the blatant LIEING pre and post > release about it's online problems and the carrot/horse act about how it

was > going to be fixed(which it never was) I wouldn't believe Ed Martin if Iwas > looking at my watch and he said the correct time. > > This is one title I'll wait for a few months to see what's up before > thinking about buying myself. > > My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due tolicensing > issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. > > John > >Yeah, that was a classic. Actually, now that I think about it, sometimes no yellows might be good. :-)

"Bob Fellenbaum" <hvacguy@ddgwireless(remove).com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:adehot$10d9r3$[email hidden]... > > > Maybe this is old news, but this is the first I've heard of it - the > > > July issue of PC Gamer has a one page story about NASCAR Thunder

2003 - > > > which is being developed by ISI! It is also being produced by the > > > former producer of NASCAR Heat. Not to take anything away fromPapyrus > > > or MGI, but I personally prefer ISI's physics and force feedback over > > > the other two, and we know if it's from ISI it will be moddable. I > > > think this is great news. > > > > > > > I too like many parts of Heat, but after the blatant LIEING pre andpost

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > release about it's online problems and the carrot/horse act about how it > was > > going to be fixed(which it never was) I wouldn't believe Ed Martin if I > was > > looking at my watch and he said the correct time. > > > > This is one title I'll wait for a few months to see what's up before > > thinking about buying myself. > > > > My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due to > licensing > > issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. > > > > John > > > > > Yeah, that was a classic. Actually, now that I think about it, sometimes

no > yellows might be good. :-) Lol, that's true :) -John > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes: > My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due to licensing >issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. How the HELL could a yellow flag run afoul of licensing?!? I don't remember hearing that one... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due tolicensing > >issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. > > How the HELL could a yellow flag run afoul of licensing?!? I don'tremember > hearing that one... > > Eldred Oh, it was a classic Eldred; one for the ages. I think that was version #3 or so of why there weren't any yellows, can't remember.........there was so many <G> Heat was such a disappointment; had the chance to literally blow Papy out of the water, but they decided to stick with a mediocore/half-finished product instead. Why even bother if you're not going to put a full effort into industry competition ? Lots of things I liked better in Heat, even compared to N2002, but they dropped the ball. -John

Ermmm...... I've had dealings with developers/publishers with licensing at the core. You would be amazed at how some things are perceived by the licensors and the absolutely ridiculous results from it. I wouldn't at all be surprised if at the time NASCAR had some stick in the mud over yellow flags/etc. NASCAR is second only to FIA on the all-time "what the...!?!?!" reasoning meter. I'll bet Sierra just negotiated a little harder, or maybe a little later, or something to that effect. Its a whacky whacky world in the land of licensors, and all reason and logic needs to be dropped from your mind to even remotely approach it from a safe place in sanity. Here's a little tidbit for yas to drive the point home... Did you know that the FIA do not own the rights to the F1 Teams online? Basically making the FIA incapable (technically) of even licensing their own product online (if the teams wanted to get really picky). Technically speaking... the FIA are in ill position to license themselves online, and this is the crux of the licensing issues/problems with F1 games online. The FIA themselves are walking on eggshells with their own product... Like I said... abandone all sense of reason when dealing with licensors. Oh here's another one: Did you know that NASCAR forbids any prizes from being given out through any relation to any of its licenses... unless that prize is officially licensed by NASCAR as well. Meaning: *technically* you cannot run a competition with a NASCAR licensed product as the venue/basis, and give away a logitech wheel... Logitech do not have a NASCAR license... If it was a Thrustmaster Wheel... no problemo... they have a NASCAR license. It goes on... and on... and on... Abandon all reason, and make NO assumptions. It's crazier than you think... and Game Companies have found themselves in DEEP DOG DOODOO for making simple assumptions in the past. Cheers, Schumi

Of course they dont! That would be like FIS owning the rights to every skiier in the world or FIA owning my name cause I paricepate in a FIA sactioned race. Take a look at the NASCAR Racing 2002 manuals or the GPL 'box for that matter... and see how much NASCAR really owns.... one name / brand - thats all. The FIA actually dont own much of anything... but thats another story. -- ed_ "Schumi" wrote: > Did you know that the FIA do not own the rights to the F1 Teams online?

"Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message news:X4VK8.9406$[email hidden]... > Of course they dont! > That would be like FIS owning the rights to every skiier in the world orFIA > owning my name cause I paricepate in a FIA sactioned race. Take a look at > the NASCAR Racing 2002 manuals or the GPL 'box for that matter... andsee

Quoted text (11 lines)

> how much NASCAR really owns.... one name / brand - thats all. > > The FIA actually dont own much of anything... but thats another story. > > -- > ed_ > > "Schumi" wrote: > > > Did you know that the FIA do not own the rights to the F1 Teams online? >

many leagues here in the USA have legal groupings to focus the power of the players. So for Football, you have to license the NFL, the teams and logos are probably separate and the NFL Players association. This is exactly why Jacques Villenueve was Racer X in several sims a few years ago...he didn't belong to the F1 drivers Association, preferring to handle his own licensing affairs. That has changed. Same thing with Michael Jordan, he wasn't a member of the NBA players association so any game with their license couldn't display MJ. dave henrie

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> Oh, it was a classic Eldred; one for the ages. I think that was version >#3 or so of why there weren't any yellows, can't remember.........there was >so many <G> > > Heat was such a disappointment; had the chance to literally blow Papy out >of the water, but they decided to stick with a mediocore/half-finished >product instead. Why even bother if you're not going to put a full effort >into industry competition ? > Lots of things I liked better in Heat, even compared to N2002, but they >dropped the ball.

I think I played Heat for a couple of weeks. The AI kept spinning me out, and the online racing was non-existent. The game is collecting dust on my shelf - I'm not even sure I didn't un-install it... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Thanks to those of you who made a donation for breast cancer research. The walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my webpage. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

If that was true, then why does the Xbox version of NASCAR Heat have yellow flags? All of a sudden a breakthrough on the licensing front? Sad that a company would lie like that. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due tolicensing > >issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. > > How the HELL could a yellow flag run afoul of licensing?!? I don'tremember > hearing that one... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for researchto cure > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how tomake a > donation. Thank you. > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Dave Pollatsek wrote:

Quoted text (24 lines)

> > The xbox version of Heat doesn't have online play--hence no online > yellows! Here's what happened with the online yellows for PC: when we > agreed to do NASCAR Heat for Hasbro, we agreed that it would just have > "pickup race" multiplayer with just incremental improvements to our existing > MP code; having the all-singing all-dancing MP (e.g, online yellows, 43 > players over 56K modem, etc) is a huge project (as we know because several > of our number worked on "Hawaii"), and very ambitious for a _first_ NASCAR > title. Papyrus developed their online technology over many years while > selling many different versions and upgrades of their NASCAR titles. We > were trying to break into a new market, and focused on the offline > experience for our first title. > However, the other reason we didn't sink this kind of time and money into > MP was that Hasbro didn't have full online rights. Without the ability to > run matchmaking servers and rankings, multiplayer will be restricted to a > small subset of advanced users, and of these, 99% will run in short pickup > races, so doing a huge MP re-architecting didn't make any sense. > We made it clear on this newsgroup well before we shipped that we would > only support 8-player multiplayer; we probably weren't explicit enough that > yellows would not be available online, but that was not intentional. It > also wasn't totally helpful to have Ed Martin posting--he worked for the > publisher (Hasbro) not the developer, but we've had to take the flack for > some of his perhaps over-"exuberant" posts... > I don't care anymore--believe what you want to believe.

LOL, yup, sounds like Ed allright You go Dave, hey, did you ever look into that AussieV8 sim we talked about when Jacob had his server setup with it's own NG for NHeat ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

The xbox version of Heat doesn't have online play--hence no online yellows! Here's what happened with the online yellows for PC: when we agreed to do NASCAR Heat for Hasbro, we agreed that it would just have "pickup race" multiplayer with just incremental improvements to our existing MP code; having the all-singing all-dancing MP (e.g, online yellows, 43 players over 56K modem, etc) is a huge project (as we know because several of our number worked on "Hawaii"), and very ambitious for a _first_ NASCAR title. Papyrus developed their online technology over many years while selling many different versions and upgrades of their NASCAR titles. We were trying to break into a new market, and focused on the offline experience for our first title. However, the other reason we didn't sink this kind of time and money into MP was that Hasbro didn't have full online rights. Without the ability to run matchmaking servers and rankings, multiplayer will be restricted to a small subset of advanced users, and of these, 99% will run in short pickup races, so doing a huge MP re-architecting didn't make any sense. We made it clear on this newsgroup well before we shipped that we would only support 8-player multiplayer; we probably weren't explicit enough that yellows would not be available online, but that was not intentional. It also wasn't totally helpful to have Ed Martin posting--he worked for the publisher (Hasbro) not the developer, but we've had to take the flack for some of his perhaps over-"exuberant" posts... I don't care anymore--believe what you want to believe. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:adrhc1$1rld8$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (29 lines)

> If that was true, then why does the Xbox version of NASCAR Heat have > yellow flags? All of a sudden a breakthrough on the licensing front? > Sad that a company would lie like that. > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due to > licensing > > >issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. > > > > How the HELL could a yellow flag run afoul of licensing?!? I don't > remember > > hearing that one... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research > to cure > > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to > make a > > donation. Thank you. > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

"Dave Pollatsek" (snip) > We made it clear on this newsgroup well before we shipped that we would > only support 8-player multiplayer; we probably weren't explicit enoughthat > yellows would not be available online, but that was not intentional. It > also wasn't totally helpful to have Ed Martin posting--he worked for the > publisher (Hasbro) not the developer, but we've had to take the flack for > some of his perhaps over-"exuberant" posts... > I don't care anymore--believe what you want to believe. THanks Dave for the input. You may have been constrained by the various factors listed, but your multiplayer module is still second only to Papyrus. The F1 sims pale in comparision. You guys made quite a first impression with Heat, but then I think it suffered from N4's release. While N4 is the end product of years of sims(as you said) your title was a first effort...We probably overreacted to the lack of some features based on what the competiton had. Still that's the nature of us fickle fans...there is always something better/neater/cooler just around the corner. It would be great if you could continue to enhance it via new versions. Good luck. AND ESPECIALLY thanks for your work allowing the mods to work so seamlessly. dave henrie

"Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d02352c$0$79558$[email hidden]... > The xbox version of Heat doesn't have online play--hence no online > yellows! Here's what happened with the online yellows for PC: when we > agreed to do NASCAR Heat for Hasbro, we agreed that it would just have > "pickup race" multiplayer with just incremental improvements to ourexisting

Quoted text (8 lines)

> MP code; having the all-singing all-dancing MP (e.g, online yellows, 43 > players over 56K modem, etc) is a huge project (as we know because several > of our number worked on "Hawaii"), and very ambitious for a _first_ NASCAR > title. Papyrus developed their online technology over many years while > selling many different versions and upgrades of their NASCAR titles. We > were trying to break into a new market, and focused on the offline > experience for our first title. > However, the other reason we didn't sink this kind of time and money

into > MP was that Hasbro didn't have full online rights. Without the ability to > run matchmaking servers and rankings, multiplayer will be restricted to a > small subset of advanced users, and of these, 99% will run in short pickup > races, so doing a huge MP re-architecting didn't make any sense. > We made it clear on this newsgroup well before we shipped that we would > only support 8-player multiplayer; we probably weren't explicit enoughthat

Quoted text (36 lines)

> yellows would not be available online, but that was not intentional. It > also wasn't totally helpful to have Ed Martin posting--he worked for the > publisher (Hasbro) not the developer, but we've had to take the flack for > some of his perhaps over-"exuberant" posts... > I don't care anymore--believe what you want to believe. > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:adrhc1$1rld8$[email hidden]... > > If that was true, then why does the Xbox version of NASCAR Heat have > > yellow flags? All of a sudden a breakthrough on the licensing front? > > Sad that a company would lie like that. > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > > > My favortie LIE was how Heat couldn't have yellows online due to > > licensing > > > >issues and any future Papy products wouldn't either.............. > > > > > > How the HELL could a yellow flag run afoul of licensing?!? I don't > > remember > > > hearing that one... > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research > > to cure > > > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to > > make a > > > donation. Thank you. > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Thanks for the post Dave. It's not worth beating a dead horse, so I'll leave it at that myself :) More than anything, I just wish Heat could have lived up to it's full potential; it's a great game in many ways. -John >

In article <3d02352c$0$79558$[email hidden]>, "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> writes: > However, the other reason we didn't sink this kind of time and money into >MP was that Hasbro didn't have full online rights. What exactly does that mean? You don't need an offical 'matchmaking server' for online... Serious question, Dave. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Thanks to those of you who made a donation for breast cancer research. The walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my webpage. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

While it's true you don't need a matchmaking server, firing up the game and clicking "internet" or something and being able to find a server and go race is a lot different than finding some IP address somewhere and typing it in (we didn't expect something like IRF to crawl out of the woodworks, and to be honest, we were a little afraid to become too closely afiliated with it) and hoping the race hasn't started yet, etc, etc. -d "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <3d02352c$0$79558$[email hidden]>, "DavePollatsek" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > However, the other reason we didn't sink this kind of time and moneyinto > >MP was that Hasbro didn't have full online rights. > > What exactly does that mean? You don't need an offical 'matchmakingserver'

Quoted text (7 lines)

> for online... > Serious question, Dave. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Thanks to those of you who made a donation for breast cancer research.

The > walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my > webpage. > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <3d05497f$0$79563$[email hidden]>, "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> writes: >While it's true you don't need a matchmaking server, firing up the game and >clicking "internet" or something and being able to find a server and go race >is a lot different than finding some IP address somewhere and typing it in >(we didn't expect something like IRF to crawl out of the woodworks, and to >be honest, we were a little afraid to become too closely afiliated with it) >and hoping the race hasn't started yet, etc, etc. Ok, so what does "Hasbro didn't have full online rights" mean? NASCAR said "In order to have MP, you need our permission. Well, we're not gonna GIVE it."? How can they say that you can't have multiplayer? You have the rights to the cars, tracks, drivers, and logos. You just can't race against another human. WTF? I'd really be interesting in hearing the information from a developer. It might help us understand the "No MP in F1 games" issue also. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Thanks to those of you who made a donation for breast cancer research. The walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my webpage. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <3d05497f$0$79563$[email hidden]>, "DavePollatsek" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >While it's true you don't need a matchmaking server, firing up the gameand > >clicking "internet" or something and being able to find a server and gorace > >is a lot different than finding some IP address somewhere and typing itin > >(we didn't expect something like IRF to crawl out of the woodworks, andto > >be honest, we were a little afraid to become too closely afiliated withit) > >and hoping the race hasn't started yet, etc, etc. > > Ok, so what does "Hasbro didn't have full online rights" mean? NASCARsaid "In > order to have MP, you need our permission. Well, we're not gonna GIVEit."? > How can they say that you can't have multiplayer? You have the rights tothe > cars, tracks, drivers, and logos. You just can't race against anotherhuman. > WTF? I'd really be interesting in hearing the information from adeveloper. > It might help us understand the "No MP in F1 games" issue also. > > Eldred methinks you may need to speak to the Havas/Vivendi/Sierra lawyers.... dave henrie

In article <4igN8.150668$352.7688@sccrnsc02>, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> WTF? I'd really be interesting in hearing the information from a >developer. >> It might help us understand the "No MP in F1 games" issue also. >> >> Eldred > methinks you may need to speak to the Havas/Vivendi/Sierra lawyers.... >dave henrie

I was *hoping* that Dave P. would be able to give us a little 'de-classified' info. I try to AVOID lawyers...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Thanks to those of you who made a donation for breast cancer research. The walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my webpage. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > I was *hoping* that Dave P. would be able to give us a little 'de-classified' > info. I try to AVOID lawyers...<g> There was a discussion on this on the nascarheat.com board when it first came out. IIRC, Sierra/Papyrus are the only ones with a license to do an online NASCAR series, which includes matchmaking/ranking services. Ed Martin initially said that the multiplayer in NH would be improved once the licensing situation was resolved, but clearly he was just making promises he couldn't keep and making MGI look bad. In retrospect, it's amazing how many blatant lies he was telling the fans of the game, and I'm almost amazed the series survived. Jason

Sorry I can't be more specific--a couple of reasons. One, it was pretty vague to begin with, two, I'm not a lawyer, three, it was a while ago and I'm already starting to forget, and four, just some generic ass-covering in case I've already violated something or other. (Yes I know this is not a satisfactory response, but life is full of disappointments.) I don't know anything about the F1 multiplayer deals, but I would say it's very possible that the developers are in fact being restrained by either FIA or by what the publisher's lawyers _think_ the FIA wants. Groups like FIA can draw up any sort of licensing agreement they want, and it can be different for each licensee. In either case it probably comes down to money (or time) either way, either in money spent on more licensing or money spent on more software development. For the record, none of these posts represent the views of Hasbro, NASCAR, Monster Games, inc., Infogrames SA, or Hormel Foods. This post will self destruct in ten seconds... "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <3d05497f$0$79563$[email hidden]>, "DavePollatsek" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >While it's true you don't need a matchmaking server, firing up the gameand > >clicking "internet" or something and being able to find a server and gorace > >is a lot different than finding some IP address somewhere and typing itin > >(we didn't expect something like IRF to crawl out of the woodworks, andto > >be honest, we were a little afraid to become too closely afiliated withit) > >and hoping the race hasn't started yet, etc, etc. > > Ok, so what does "Hasbro didn't have full online rights" mean? NASCARsaid "In > order to have MP, you need our permission. Well, we're not gonna GIVEit."? > How can they say that you can't have multiplayer? You have the rights tothe > cars, tracks, drivers, and logos. You just can't race against anotherhuman. > WTF? I'd really be interesting in hearing the information from adeveloper. > It might help us understand the "No MP in F1 games" issue also. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Thanks to those of you who made a donation for breast cancer research.The > walkathon is over, but donations are still being accepted. Details on my > webpage. > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Dave Pollatsek" > For the record, none of these posts represent the views of Hasbro,NASCAR, > Monster Games, inc., Infogrames SA, or Hormel Foods. This post will self > destruct in ten seconds... Post? what post...??? I don't see no po......... ' dave henrie

"Dave Pollatsek" Post? what post...??? I don't see no po......... ' dave henrie