Question: Eric Busch?

Eric.... In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention turning off "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair and balanced FPS comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where that feature is in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights" and if so, where? Thanks.... Tom

Tom, it's in-game on the graphics options page... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > Eric.... > > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention turning off > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair and balanced FPS > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where that feature is > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights" and if > so, where? > > Thanks.... > > Tom > > >

Don't think so....not in my version of N2K2, at least. Unless it goes by different name? All of the FX checkboxes impact FPS in both OGL and D3D....so I don't think the setting for specular highlights is there. TP "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ur0S8.53064$[email hidden]...

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> Tom, it's in-game on the graphics options page... > -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > > Eric.... > > > > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention turningoff > > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair and balancedFPS > > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where that featureis > > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights" andif

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> > so, where? > > > > Thanks.... > > > > Tom > > > > > > > >

I don't think its in NR2002. It was in N4 IIRC. MadDAWG

I thought reflections was the same thing, but apperently not, it's in the player.ini file [Effects] debris=1 ; Debris on or off dirt=1 ; Dirt on or off dust=1 ; Dust on or off fog=1 ; Fog on or off lightmaps=1 ; Lightmaps on or off reflections=0 ; Reflections on or off shadows=1 ; Shadows on or off skid_marks=1 ; Skid marks on or off smoke=1 ; Smoke on or off sparks=1 ; Sparks on or off specular=1 ; Specular highlights on or off -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n41S8.66601$EP.6339@sccrnsc03... > Don't think so....not in my version of N2K2, at least. Unless it goes by > different name? All of the FX checkboxes impact FPS in both OGL and > D3D....so I don't think the setting for specular highlights is there. > > TP > > > "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ur0S8.53064$[email hidden]... > > Tom, it's in-game on the graphics options page... > > -- > > Biz > > > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > > the....." - Ash > > > > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > > > Eric.... > > > > > > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention turning > off > > > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair and balanced > FPS > > > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where that feature > is > > > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > > > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights" and > if > > > so, where? > > > > > > Thanks.... > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

It is under graphic options under your "options" screen. Kerry "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n41S8.66601$EP.6339@sccrnsc03...

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> Don't think so....not in my version of N2K2, at least. Unless it goes by > different name? All of the FX checkboxes impact FPS in both OGL and > D3D....so I don't think the setting for specular highlights is there. > > TP > > > "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ur0S8.53064$[email hidden]... > > Tom, it's in-game on the graphics options page... > > -- > > Biz > > > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular

structures,....and

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> > the....." - Ash > > > > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > > > Eric.... > > > > > > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention turning > off > > > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair and

balanced > FPS > > > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where thatfeature > is > > > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > > > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights"and

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> if > > > so, where? > > > > > > Thanks.... > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Doh!! Kerry "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I don't think its in NR2002. It was in N4 IIRC. > > MadDAWG > >

Believe this is from N4, not N2K2 "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:T92S8.53234$[email hidden]... > I thought reflections was the same thing, but apperently not, it's in theplayer.ini file

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> > [Effects] > debris=1 ; Debris on or off > dirt=1 ; Dirt on or off > dust=1 ; Dust on or off > fog=1 ; Fog on or off > lightmaps=1 ; Lightmaps on or off > reflections=0 ; Reflections on or off > shadows=1 ; Shadows on or off > skid_marks=1 ; Skid marks on or off > smoke=1 ; Smoke on or off > sparks=1 ; Sparks on or off > specular=1 ; Specular highlights on or off > > -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:n41S8.66601$EP.6339@sccrnsc03... > > Don't think so....not in my version of N2K2, at least. Unless it goesby

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> > different name? All of the FX checkboxes impact FPS in both OGL and > > D3D....so I don't think the setting for specular highlights is there. > > > > TP > > > > > > "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ur0S8.53064$[email hidden]... > > > Tom, it's in-game on the graphics options page... > > > -- > > > Biz > > > > > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > > > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular

structures,....and

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> > > the....." - Ash > > > > > > > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > > > > Eric.... > > > > > > > > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention

turning > > off > > > > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair andbalanced > > FPS > > > > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where thatfeature > > is > > > > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > > > > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights"and

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> > if > > > > so, where? > > > > > > > > Thanks.... > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Sorry, I had forgotten that this was combined with environment mapping in NR2002 as a single "reflections" option. So for D3D the "reflections" graphic option controls just environment mapping, while in OpenGL it controls both environment mapping and specular highlights. - Eric "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention turningoff > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair andbalanced FPS > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where thatfeature is > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights"and if > so, where?

I can't beleive I actually pulled up the wrong ini file, when I knew I needed the one from N2002. SO it is in the reflections setting now... as Eric verifed. -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Bob G <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d18db2a$[email hidden]... > Believe this is from N4, not N2K2 > > > "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:T92S8.53234$[email hidden]... > > I thought reflections was the same thing, but apperently not, it's in the > player.ini file > > > > [Effects] > > debris=1 ; Debris on or off > > dirt=1 ; Dirt on or off > > dust=1 ; Dust on or off > > fog=1 ; Fog on or off > > lightmaps=1 ; Lightmaps on or off > > reflections=0 ; Reflections on or off > > shadows=1 ; Shadows on or off > > skid_marks=1 ; Skid marks on or off > > smoke=1 ; Smoke on or off > > sparks=1 ; Sparks on or off > > specular=1 ; Specular highlights on or off > > > > -- > > Biz > > > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > > the....." - Ash > > > > > > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:n41S8.66601$EP.6339@sccrnsc03... > > > Don't think so....not in my version of N2K2, at least. Unless it goes > by > > > different name? All of the FX checkboxes impact FPS in both OGL and > > > D3D....so I don't think the setting for specular highlights is there. > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:ur0S8.53064$[email hidden]... > > > > Tom, it's in-game on the graphics options page... > > > > -- > > > > Biz > > > > > > > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > > > > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular > structures,....and > > > > the....." - Ash > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > > > > > Eric.... > > > > > > > > > > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention > turning > > > off > > > > > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair and > balanced > > > FPS > > > > > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where that > feature > > > is > > > > > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > > > > > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights" > and > > > if > > > > > so, where? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks.... > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Okay.....thank you Eric. That would explain why turning "reflections" on/off impacted the FPS in both OGL and D3D.....only it was a greater impact in OGL (by about 20%). So.....to properly compare OGL FPS to D3D FPS......."reflections" should be turned off......if I understand the issue? That......(before I've even tested for this) should give the "edge" to OGL for FPS.....if I understand the issues properly. Also......if....and this is a big "if" that I want to confirm with my own track graphic files......but if OGL in 16 bit has nearly as good of a subjective graphic quality as D3D in 32 bit (which I did think was the case in N4....but not in N2K2).....then the graphic quality/FPS comparison should give the clear "winner"....to OGL. I'm going to test this tonight on a new "race box" I just built with a GF4-ti4600.....but I want to install the 29.80 WHQL's on that system first. I'll report back under this thread....probably by tomorrow morning....Pacific. Thanks Eric......(and all the others)....for the info. Regards, Tom PS: Note to anyone else who wants to do some of this comparison yourself......here's a word of caution: When you run the "3D Config" program (to change your res/color depths and renderer mode)....you need to go back into the "rend_D3D.ini" file and reset the "anistropic=0" entry each time. The 3D Config.exe will reset this value to what it thinks/calculates will work for your card. You don't want to have any number in there but "zero"....for these FPS comparisons. If you forget to do this....it will distort your numbers. Also....those of you running WindowsXP....I think you are going to run into hitting a low-headroom FPS because of the inability for WinXP to properly set the refresh rate "in game"......to anything above 75 or 85....not sure which. I don't run WinXP (still using Win98SE....partly for this reason)....so I'm not sure of this still being a problem with the 29.80 WHQL's....but you should check it out because I think it still is. Another quick question for Eric: Is it possible that I will hit a "max FPS" in N2K2 (assuming there is one....at least theoretically there should be.....at something near the physics engine max FPS....or no?)......say at 1024x16 in OGL with this GF4-ti4600 (on a 1.8gig...oc'd over 2.0)? If there is a calculated max FPS....can you tell me about what it is? Its okay if you can reveal that....I understand that could be kind of proprietary info....no problem. It would be good to know if there is a max FPS though. "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:afb0f5$n7d$[email hidden]...

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> Sorry, I had forgotten that this was combined with environment mapping > in NR2002 as a single "reflections" option. So for D3D the > "reflections" graphic option controls just environment mapping, while in > OpenGL it controls both environment mapping and specular highlights. > > - Eric > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:uk0S8.148677$nZ3.64567@rwcrnsc53... > > In the thread below on the Sears track graphics....you mention turning > off > > "specular highlights" in OGL....when one wants to do a fair and > balanced FPS > > comparison between D3D and OGL in N2K2. I don't see where that > feature is > > in the rend_ogl.ini.....or on the OGL "advance tab" for the 29.80 > > WHQL's....or in RivaTuner. Can you turn off "specular highlights" > and if > > so, where? > >

Yes, turning off reflections will "level the playing field" such that D3D and OpenGL use the same feature set, and yes turning off reflections will likely give a larger percentage increase in OpenGL since it was doing more work than D3D with them enabled. However even before you turn reflections off, OpenGL should still have a performance edge as the rendered scene increases in complexity. For example, D3D and OpenGL might give identical framerates sitting in the pits during a testing session, but if you make the same comparison while starting at the back of a 43 car field you might find that D3D has lost 40% of that testing score while OpenGL only has lost 20% (I'm making up numbers, but you get the idea). Yes there is framerate cap, limited by max_grabs_per_update_w_track_view in the [Task] section of your core.ini. Basically this limits the number of frames that will be drawn per tick (the engine's base unit of time which corresponds to 1/36th of a second). I believe the default is 4, which would cap the framerate at 144. Assuming your machine is pegging the144fps limit, I don't think there would be any harm to increase that number (I'm in no way responsible however if the game fdisks your system or something as a result of that change). You'll obviously also want to ensure that you're not limited by v-sync when doing these tests. The 1.1.0.2 patch disables it automatically in D3D, but you'll still need to do it at the driver level for OpenGL. - Eric "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OB9S8.179468$[email hidden]... > Okay.....thank you Eric. That would explain why turning "reflections" > on/off impacted the FPS in both OGL and D3D.....only it was a greaterimpact > in OGL (by about 20%). So.....to properly compare OGL FPS to D3D > FPS......."reflections" should be turned off......if I understand theissue? > That......(before I've even tested for this) should give the "edge" toOGL > for FPS.....if I understand the issues properly. Also......if....andthis > is a big "if" that I want to confirm with my own track graphic > files......but if OGL in 16 bit has nearly as good of a subjectivegraphic > quality as D3D in 32 bit (which I did think was the case in N4....butnot in > N2K2).....then the graphic quality/FPS comparison should give theclear > "winner"....to OGL. > > Another quick question for Eric: Is it possible that I will hit a"max FPS" > in N2K2 (assuming there is one....at least theoretically there should > be.....at something near the physics engine max FPS....orno?)......say at > 1024x16 in OGL with this GF4-ti4600 (on a 1.8gig...oc'd over 2.0)? Ifthere > is a calculated max FPS....can you tell me about what it is? Its okayif > you can reveal that....I understand that could be kind of proprietary > info....no problem. It would be good to know if there is a max FPSthough.

Eric...See my comments below ("Pabst")........... Great info....thanks, Tom. "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:afbclg$9k8$[email hidden]...

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> Yes, turning off reflections will "level the playing field" such that > D3D and OpenGL use the same feature set, and yes turning off reflections > will likely give a larger percentage increase in OpenGL since it was > doing more work than D3D with them enabled. However even before you > turn reflections off, OpenGL should still have a performance edge as the > rendered scene increases in complexity. For example, D3D and OpenGL > might give identical framerates sitting in the pits during a testing > session, but if you make the same comparison while starting at the back > of a 43 car field you might find that D3D has lost 40% of that testing > score while OpenGL only has lost 20% (I'm making up numbers, but you get > the idea).

(Pabst): I figured the "Atlanta Pits" bench would not be totally accurate.....scene complexity is fixed and there's little cpu load without AI cars. But...you have to start a "bench" and stick to it.....and I've been using the "Atlanta Pits" bench since early N4 (and the historical data is useful sometimes when I'm troubleshooting one of our older "race boxes" in our rental fleet). I do however, now want to add another "benchmark" setup......soemthing that accounts for the scene complexity and CPU load from AI (as you suggested).....any suggestions on something to use......in addition....to the "Atlanta Pits" bench? I was thinking of taking a high-graphic load track (maybe Sears...or Watkins), setting a full AI field, starting at the back....and taking the average FPS for the pace lap. Do you think that would be "max" stress......for a second "benchmark" to use? Your suggestions would be welcome. After I establish this new benchmark setup.....I'll test the OGL vs. D3D FPS hit.....and express it as a percentage of the "Atlanta Pits" bench FPS number too. That should put some imperical data to your suggestion that OGL's "load hit" is less than D3D's.

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> > Yes there is framerate cap, limited by max_grabs_per_update_w_track_view > in the [Task] section of your core.ini. Basically this limits the > number of frames that will be drawn per tick (the engine's base unit of > time which corresponds to 1/36th of a second). I believe the default is > 4, which would cap the framerate at 144. Assuming your machine is > pegging the144fps limit, I don't think there would be any harm to > increase that number (I'm in no way responsible however if the game > fdisks your system or something as a result of that change).

(Pabst): That's great info, thanks Eric. "Yes"...its pegging the 144 (see my other post this morning under this string). LOL....and "auto-Fdisk" feature would have been discovered. My systems could use a good an old Fdisk...now and then! ....lol..... I don't see any value in changing the default "4" max grabs....unless its for pure benching work and the max FPS is being hit. I doubt under "playing conditions" with "reflections" turned back on......and full AI fields....that too many machines even today...would be exceeding (or capable of exceeding) 144 FPS. But...we are probably not far from the day that will be a reality. I assume Papy will be doing some testing of some high-end boxes to see what happens with higher values for the max-grab, though? Don't they let you guys into the CIA computers on Tuesdays.....so you can play around with high-end stuff.....and have a good "office race" together? ....lol.... Just kidding! > > You'll obviously also want to ensure that you're not limited by v-sync > when doing these tests. The 1.1.0.2 patch disables it automatically in > D3D, but you'll still need to do it at the driver level for OpenGL. (Pabst): Yes...got that one covered and since I'm using Win98SE....there shouldn't be a problem with insuring vsync=0

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> > - Eric > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:OB9S8.179468$[email hidden]... > > Okay.....thank you Eric. That would explain why turning "reflections" > > on/off impacted the FPS in both OGL and D3D.....only it was a greater > impact > > in OGL (by about 20%). So.....to properly compare OGL FPS to D3D > > FPS......."reflections" should be turned off......if I understand the > issue? > > That......(before I've even tested for this) should give the "edge" to > OGL > > for FPS.....if I understand the issues properly. Also......if....and > this > > is a big "if" that I want to confirm with my own track graphic > > files......but if OGL in 16 bit has nearly as good of a subjective > graphic > > quality as D3D in 32 bit (which I did think was the case in N4....but > not in > > N2K2).....then the graphic quality/FPS comparison should give the > clear > > "winner"....to OGL. > > > > Another quick question for Eric: Is it possible that I will hit a > "max FPS" > > in N2K2 (assuming there is one....at least theoretically there should > > be.....at something near the physics engine max FPS....or > no?)......say at > > 1024x16 in OGL with this GF4-ti4600 (on a 1.8gig...oc'd over 2.0)? If > there > > is a calculated max FPS....can you tell me about what it is? Its okay > if > > you can reveal that....I understand that could be kind of proprietary > > info....no problem. It would be good to know if there is a max FPS > though. > >

Here's the results of the benchtesting I did last night to get a frame comparison (balanced and equitable) between the Papy OGL and D3D renders for N2K2: ***System #1 Specs/Settings*** Specs: K7-Master, 1.0 AMD (at 1466), 512 Ram (PC2100) - 416 "free ram" at test run, GF3 (ASUS 8600 at default clks with 29.80 WHQL's), SBL X-Gamer, analogue controls @ gameport, DX8.1 (fresh install), Win98SE. Video Card Settings (System #1): D3D = all 29.80 defaults with LOD at 0.0, vsync=off, aa=off. OGL = all 29.80 defaults with LOD at 0.0, vsync=off, aa=off. N2K2 Settings: All sliders max, all "detail" max, Reflections=off, anistropic=off, *core.ini* at defaults except [FileLRUCache]/CacheSize=14194304, *player.ini* at defaults except [GraphicOptions]/Texture_quality=100, *rend_d3d.ini* at defaults except AnisotropicLevel=0, MipMapLODBias=-2.00, *rend_ogl.ini* at defaults except AnisotropicLevel=0. Test Results ("Atlanta Pits" Benchtest) FPS: **OGL** **D3D** 1024x16 144* 133 1280x16 119 103 1600x16 84 70 ******* 1024x32 144 130 1280x32 108 96 1600x32 72 64 * = max FPS ***System #2 Specs/Settings*** Specs: K7-Master, 1.0 AMD (at 1466), 512 Ram (PC2100) - 409 "free ram" at test run, GF4 (PNY ti4600 at default clks with 29.80 WHQL's), SBL X-Gamer, analogue controls @ gameport, DX8.1 (fresh install), Win98SE. Video Card Settings (System #2): D3D = all 29.80 defaults with LOD at 0.0, vsync=off, aa=off. OGL = all 29.80 defaults with LOD at 0.0, vsync=off, aa=off. N2K2 Settings: All sliders max, all "detail" max, Reflections=off, anistropic=off, *core.ini* at defaults except [FileLRUCache]/CacheSize=14194304, *player.ini* at defaults except [GraphicOptions]/Texture_quality=100, *rend_d3d.ini* at defaults except AnisotropicLevel=0, MipMapLODBias=-2.00, *rend_ogl.ini* at defaults except AnisotropicLevel=0. Test Results ("Atlanta Pits" Benchtest) FPS: **OGL** **D3D** 1024x16 144* 144* 1280x16 140 122 1600x16 105 89 ******* 1024x32 144* 144* 1280x32 130 118 1600x32 94 87 * = max FPS Remember....the "Atlanta Pits" benchmark does not take into account CPU load (form AI cars) or scene complexity. Hope this is helpful to some of you.....in figuring out what N2K2 NV renderer you want to use. Regards, Tom