OT: Little E's "Bad Decision" Tonight!

I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but if it was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or 6 laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is what did happen)! But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces Michael (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really bad place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you guys think? Regards, Tom

I guess Dale Jr didn't win then? Damn shame I haven't gotten to see the race yet. Thanks for the spoiler!! Also, NASCAR isn't F1, sometimes the drivers try and pass each other, even at Gaytona and Fellatega. We don't need to analyze it. =) <-- kidding here Jason On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 06:00:43 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (34 lines)

>I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. >But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try >Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > >I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but if it >was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather >up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious >lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless >his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or 6 >laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go >high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not >likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow >him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is what did >happen)! > >But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces Michael >(his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to >pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, >IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead >position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and >just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to >do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing >what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and >teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale >owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really bad >place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you >guys think? > >Regards, > >Tom > > >

His crew chief talked him into going for the win, they said earlier that Jr had transmitted to his crewchief that he was going to stay with Michael and help him, and his crew chief encouraged him to go for the win, Jr told him if that was what he wanted, that's what he would do. Don Burnette "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but ifit > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or6 > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is whatdid > happen)! > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forcesMichael

Quoted text (9 lines)

> (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really

bad

Quoted text (9 lines)

> place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you > guys think? > > Regards, > > Tom > > >

Don...... I'd heard something to that effect too (during the post race). But.....without actually having seen/heard the words used by Dale's CC......I'd have to assume they would have implied at least..."But don't do anything stupid!" I think Dale, Jr. had every right to take a shot at the lead....IF....he saw a good opportunity revealed. Or....even if he saw a reasonable opportunity to take the lead. None of that happened in my opinion. Dale, Jr. took a stupid chance with almost no possibility of a good outcome for either himself or Michael. That is what is so perplexing to me. I think I'm going to lose a lot of respect and admiration for Dale Earnhardt, Jr., if he tries to hide behind his crew chief telling him to "go for it".......as the reason he did what he did. Wow, that really doesn't sound like Dale, Jr. to me. On another note.......do any of you guys get the feeling that there's "magic in the air" at every Daytona race since Dale, Sr.'s death? That place just has something amazing going on......and "magic" is the only word I can think of to describe it. I don't think I will be able to miss watching a NASCAR Daytona race ever again. Its almost unbelievable what has happened there since Dale was killed. Its almost like God said, "Well Dale....I screwed up and brought you up here before your time was up. So, I've got to find something for you to do between now and the time your regular "angel duties" take effect. Tell you what, I'm going to put you in charge of all the NASCAR Daytona races until then. Its up to you to figure out how exciting you want to make them for everyone.....and who learns needed lessons at them....and so forth. I know you'll do a good job at that. Heck....you were doing that kind of thing for many years while you were down there. I know, I'd never miss watching you run at Daytona!" Hmmmm, I wonder? Tom "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:X%QV8.310877$[email hidden]... > His crew chief talked him into going for the win, they said earlier thatJr > had transmitted to his crewchief that he was going to stay with Michaeland

Quoted text (9 lines)

> help him, and his crew chief encouraged him to go for the win, Jr told him > if that was what he wanted, that's what he would do. > > Don Burnette > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a

race. > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but if > it > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" togather > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than theobvious > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gainunless > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5or > 6 > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he couldgo

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is what > did > > happen)! > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces > Michael > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between

doing > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friendand > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I thinkDale > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really > bad > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what doyou

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > guys think? > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > >

>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but ifit > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious > lead? He had everything to loose... Fast Eddie would say to you that he doesn't give a damn about statistics, you just sometimes got a hunch. That's also appropriate in racing, my friend. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 07:01:45 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'd heard something to that effect too (during the post race). >But.....without actually having seen/heard the words used by Dale's >CC......I'd have to assume they would have implied at least..."But don't do >anything stupid!" From nascar.com: "I kind of didn't get any help," Earnhardt Jr. said. "At the same time I knew Rusty don't never help me. I've raced for three years now and the man's never drafted with me once. "I told Michael in the drivers' meeting I'd stay dedicated to him and that's what I wanted to do. But Tony Jr. (car chief Tony Eury Jr.) told me if I didn't try to win the race I wasn't a race car driver, so I tried to win the race." Jason

Newman had a good run on (his teammate) Wallace and Rusty blocked him. Rusty could have let him around and hooked up with him to go to the front. Completely changed the end of the race IMHO. - David Cook "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 07:01:45 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > "I kind of didn't get any help," Earnhardt Jr. said. "At the same time > I knew Rusty don't never help me. I've raced for three years now and > the man's never drafted with me once.

an apology for trying to win? you have mental issues.... this is racing, not WWF1. -- M. Main [email hidden] [email hidden] RacersEdge Motorsports Inc. http://members.rogers.com/racersedge/ #69 2002 LoA/CoA Chevy Monte Carlo Sim-racecar www.LordsOfAcid.com / www.ChildrenOfAcid.com Maturation makes liars of us all. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but if it was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or 6 laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is what did happen)! But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces Michael (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really bad place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you guys think? Regards, Tom

The crap was he was not going to race for the win. He was going to sit back and protect Mike for the win. That is not being a racer. If you need to know why find Stirling Moss and just ask him about it. Dave Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but ifit > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or6 > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is whatdid > happen)! > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forcesMichael

Quoted text (9 lines)

> (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really

bad

Quoted text (9 lines)

> place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you > guys think? > > Regards, > > Tom > > >

> I'd heard something to that effect too (during the post race). > But.....without actually having seen/heard the words used by Dale's > CC......I'd have to assume they would have implied at least..."But don'tdo > anything stupid!" I think Dale, Jr. had every right to take a shot at the > lead....IF....he saw a good opportunity revealed Actually, FOX broadcasted the whole conversation between Jr and Tony Eury Jr. during the race. Jr wanted to stay behind MW but Eury Jr. stated that the guys had worked too hard on the car for Little E to not make a run at the win. So, despite not wanting to make a go at it, he did, and you could tell he wasn't terribly happy in the interview after the race... Dave

You're analyzing waaay to much. He was trying to win the race. It didn't work. Simple as that :) John "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but ifit > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or6 > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is whatdid > happen)! > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forcesMichael

Quoted text (9 lines)

> (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really

bad

Quoted text (9 lines)

> place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you > guys think? > > Regards, > > Tom > > >

Guys...I'm not analyzing anything too much........and I'm not saying that Dale shouldn't have at least "tried" for a win. But choosing a move that had zero percentage of success.....isn't smart....isn't what a racer should do. It was stupid...and I didn't expect Dale to be stupid in those kinds of situations. That is what perplexes me. Not the fact that he wanted to win or wanted to try some opportunity if it presented itself. There was no "opportunity" to win.....at the time he tried Michael on the high side. And, I think he knows that and that's why he didn't seem very happy with himself at the post race. His crew chief was not sitting in the car with Dale. Its likely he didn't even know the situation except as it appeared the last time the group passed the pit lane. And when did it ever be such that the crew chief makes the definitive call on the move a driver makes on the track? And, this was not a "no points, run for the money shoot out." It was a season points race....not a 20-lap pickup race! And, in all the years I've been following racing....or racing myself......I've never seen a "win at all costs" driver have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! TP "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > You're analyzing waaay to much. He was trying to win the race. Itdidn't

Quoted text (8 lines)

> work. Simple as that :) > > John > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a

race. > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but if > it > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" togather > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than theobvious > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gainunless > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5or > 6 > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he couldgo

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is what > did > > happen)! > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces > Michael > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between

doing > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friendand > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I thinkDale > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really > bad > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what doyou

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > guys think? > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > >

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wJZV8.260678$nZ3.118604@rwcrnsc53... > Guys...I'm not analyzing anything too much........and I'm not saying that > Dale shouldn't have at least "tried" for a win. But choosing a move that > had zero percentage of success.....isn't smart....isn't what a racershould > do. It was stupid...and I didn't expect Dale to be stupid in those kindsof > situations. That is what perplexes me. Not the fact that he wanted towin

Quoted text (7 lines)

> or wanted to try some opportunity if it presented itself. There was no > "opportunity" to win.....at the time he tried Michael on the high side. > And, I think he knows that and that's why he didn't seem very happy with > himself at the post race. > > His crew chief was not sitting in the car with Dale. Its likely he didn't > even know the situation except as it appeared the last time the group

passed > the pit lane. And when did it ever be such that the crew chief makes the > definitive call on the move a driver makes on the track? And, this wasnot > a "no points, run for the money shoot out." It was a season points > race....not a 20-lap pickup race! And, in all the years I've beenfollowing > racing....or racing myself......I've never seen a "win at all costs"driver > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! > > TP > Oh, I don't know; Dale Earnhardt was a "win at all costs" driver, and he did alright :) Fwiw, if Jr. had had help, he had a very good opportunity of winning on the outside IMO. Bet he would have blown right by Waltrip, with help. But that's not what happened. Not quite sure what the big deal is; this kind of move/results happen every plate race, every year. His chief told him to go for the win; he didn't tell him how to do it. Guess I just don't understand what the big deal is. John

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > You're analyzing waaay to much. He was trying to win the race. It > didn't > > work. Simple as that :) > > > > John > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a > race. > > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to

try > > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), butif

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > it > > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to > gather > > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the > obvious > > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain > unless > > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 > or > > 6 > > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he

could > go > > > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which iswhat > > did > > > happen)! > > > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces > > Michael > > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require himto > > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale indanger....and

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between > doing > > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend > and > > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think > Dale > > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a

really

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > bad > > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do > you > > > guys think? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

John.... Dale Earnhardt lost his life doing just the opposite......and I'm pretty sure that would be a "world opinion"......not just mine. Dale may have been an aggressive driver in his early years....but he learned from his mistakes on the track and became a great driver because he made good decisions in the race car....and his record proves that he did. He didn't win all those races by deliberately choosing "no percentage" moves during any race. Of course had Jr. gotten "help" that would have at least made his attempt a reasonable one. But, I doubt there's a NASCAR fan on this planet....or anyone in racing.....that would have thought Rusty would move out of the low line to help him. How come Jr. thought he would? "Not quite sure what the big deal is; this kind of move/results happen every plate race, every year." I disagree with you......that kind of stupid move doesn't happen with somebody as good as Jr. is on the SS....and with the dominance DEI has displayed on the SS over the last two years......and a DEI stablemate in the lead......Jr. making such a rookie decision....makes it a big deal. "His chief told him to go for the win; he didn't tell him how to do it." My point exactly. TP "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wJZV8.260678$nZ3.118604@rwcrnsc53... > > Guys...I'm not analyzing anything too much........and I'm not sayingthat > > Dale shouldn't have at least "tried" for a win. But choosing a movethat > > had zero percentage of success.....isn't smart....isn't what a racer > should > > do. It was stupid...and I didn't expect Dale to be stupid in thosekinds

Quoted text (9 lines)

> of > > situations. That is what perplexes me. Not the fact that he wanted to > win > > or wanted to try some opportunity if it presented itself. There was no > > "opportunity" to win.....at the time he tried Michael on the high side. > > And, I think he knows that and that's why he didn't seem very happy with > > himself at the post race. > > > > His crew chief was not sitting in the car with Dale. Its likely he

didn't > > even know the situation except as it appeared the last time the group > passed > > the pit lane. And when did it ever be such that the crew chief makesthe

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > definitive call on the move a driver makes on the track? And, this was > not > > a "no points, run for the money shoot out." It was a season points > > race....not a 20-lap pickup race! And, in all the years I've been > following > > racing....or racing myself......I've never seen a "win at all costs" > driver > > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! > > > > TP > > > > Oh, I don't know; Dale Earnhardt was a "win at all costs" driver, and he > did alright :) Fwiw, if Jr. had had help, he had a very good opportunity

of > winning on the outside IMO. > Bet he would have blown right by Waltrip, with help. But that's notwhat

Quoted text (31 lines)

> happened. Not quite sure what the big deal is; this kind of move/results > happen every plate race, every year. > His chief told him to go for the win; he didn't tell him how to do it. > > Guess I just don't understand what the big deal is. > > John > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > You're analyzing waaay to much. He was trying to win the race. It > > didn't > > > work. Simple as that :) > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a > > race. > > > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to > try > > > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???),

but

Quoted text (9 lines)

> if > > > it > > > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to > > gather > > > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the > > obvious > > > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain > > unless > > > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous

5

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > or > > > 6 > > > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he > could > > go > > > > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to

follow

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is > what > > > did > > > > happen)! > > > > > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces > > > Michael > > > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require

him > to > > > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect hislead > > > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in > danger....and > > > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Daleto > > > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between > > doing > > > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what thefriend > > and > > > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. Ithink > > Dale > > > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a > really > > > bad > > > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, whatdo

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > you > > > > guys think? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Shrug. Guess we'll agree to disagree on just about every point then :) No big deal. John "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ba_V8.313251$[email hidden]... > John.... > > Dale Earnhardt lost his life doing just the opposite......and I'm pretty > sure that would be a "world opinion"......not just mine. Dale may havebeen > an aggressive driver in his early years....but he learned from hismistakes > on the track and became a great driver because he made good decisions inthe > race car....and his record proves that he did. He didn't win all those > races by deliberately choosing "no percentage" moves during any race. > > Of course had Jr. gotten "help" that would have at least made his attempta > reasonable one. But, I doubt there's a NASCAR fan on this planet....or > anyone in racing.....that would have thought Rusty would move out of thelow > line to help him. How come Jr. thought he would? > > "Not quite sure what the big deal is; this kind of move/results happenevery > plate race, every year." > > I disagree with you......that kind of stupid move doesn't happen with > somebody as good as Jr. is on the SS....and with the dominance DEI has > displayed on the SS over the last two years......and a DEI stablemate inthe

Quoted text (27 lines)

> lead......Jr. making such a rookie decision....makes it a big deal. > > "His chief told him to go for the win; he didn't tell him how to do it." > > My point exactly. > > TP > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:wJZV8.260678$nZ3.118604@rwcrnsc53... > > > Guys...I'm not analyzing anything too much........and I'm not saying > that > > > Dale shouldn't have at least "tried" for a win. But choosing a move > that > > > had zero percentage of success.....isn't smart....isn't what a racer > > should > > > do. It was stupid...and I didn't expect Dale to be stupid in those > kinds > > of > > > situations. That is what perplexes me. Not the fact that he wanted

to > > win > > > or wanted to try some opportunity if it presented itself. There wasno > > > "opportunity" to win.....at the time he tried Michael on the highside. > > > And, I think he knows that and that's why he didn't seem very happywith

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > himself at the post race. > > > > > > His crew chief was not sitting in the car with Dale. Its likely he > didn't > > > even know the situation except as it appeared the last time the group > > passed > > > the pit lane. And when did it ever be such that the crew chief makes > the > > > definitive call on the move a driver makes on the track? And, this

was

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > not > > > a "no points, run for the money shoot out." It was a season points > > > race....not a 20-lap pickup race! And, in all the years I've been > > following > > > racing....or racing myself......I've never seen a "win at all costs" > > driver > > > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > Oh, I don't know; Dale Earnhardt was a "win at all costs" driver, and

he > > did alright :) Fwiw, if Jr. had had help, he had a very goodopportunity > of > > winning on the outside IMO. > > Bet he would have blown right by Waltrip, with help. But that's not > what > > happened. Not quite sure what the big deal is; this kind ofmove/results

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > happen every plate race, every year. > > His chief told him to go for the win; he didn't tell him how to do it. > > > > Guess I just don't understand what the big deal is. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > You're analyzing waaay to much. He was trying to win the race.

It

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > didn't > > > > work. Simple as that :) > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > > > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in

a > > > race. > > > > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonightto

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > try > > > > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > > > > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), > but > > if > > > > it > > > > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience"

to > > > gather > > > > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the > > > obvious > > > > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain > > > unless > > > > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and theprevious

Quoted text (15 lines)

> 5 > > > or > > > > 6 > > > > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he > > could > > > go > > > > > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > > > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to > follow > > > > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is > > what > > > > did > > > > > happen)! > > > > > > > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he

forces

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > > Michael > > > > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require > him > > to > > > > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > > > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his > lead > > > > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in > > danger....and > > > > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale > to > > > > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide

between

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > doing > > > > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the > friend > > > and > > > > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I > think > > > Dale > > > > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a > > really > > > > bad > > > > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But,

what

Quoted text (18 lines)

> do > > > you > > > > > guys think? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > There was no "opportunity" to win.. You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. Sometimes you have to gamble, he did even if his chances were pretty low, it did not work. Simple as that. I mean, it's the same as every bloody people who take a chance at the lottery, no? ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

It was clear in the after-race interview that he was not happy with himself. Daryl said it best. He got talked into something he knew in his heart wasn't right. I don't think it will happen again... -Larry "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but ifit > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or6 > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is whatdid > happen)! > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forcesMichael

Quoted text (9 lines)

> (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really

bad

Quoted text (9 lines)

> place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you > guys think? > > Regards, > > Tom > > >

Yeah, but knowing when you can do it, and when you can't, is part of the deal. Michael's car was as fast, if not a tad faster, than Dale's. Dale KNEW that Rusty would never go with him when he made the attempt. Dale KNEW that he was the second place car, under these circumstances. But, where he should have followed his head and his heart, he let his crew chief talk him into something he knew he should not do, and he paid dearly for it. I don't ever see this happening again. He was really upset with himself in the after-race interview. -Larry "DAVID J ROBINSON" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fSYV8.4169$[email hidden]... > The crap was he was not going to race for the win. He was going to sitback

Quoted text (8 lines)

> and protect Mike for the win. That is not being a racer. If you need to > know why find Stirling Moss and just ask him about it. > > Dave > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a

race. > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but if > it > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" togather > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than theobvious > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gainunless > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5or > 6 > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he couldgo

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is what > did > > happen)! > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces > Michael > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between

doing > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friendand > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I thinkDale > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really > bad > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what doyou

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > guys think? > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > >

I have to agree with Tom here. Dale KNEW he was the second place car given the circumstances of the moment. Sometimes going for the win is not the smart thing to do, and this was one of them. He just let himself get talked out of what he knew was the right thing to do. -Larry "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wJZV8.260678$nZ3.118604@rwcrnsc53... > Guys...I'm not analyzing anything too much........and I'm not saying that > Dale shouldn't have at least "tried" for a win. But choosing a move that > had zero percentage of success.....isn't smart....isn't what a racershould > do. It was stupid...and I didn't expect Dale to be stupid in those kindsof > situations. That is what perplexes me. Not the fact that he wanted towin

Quoted text (7 lines)

> or wanted to try some opportunity if it presented itself. There was no > "opportunity" to win.....at the time he tried Michael on the high side. > And, I think he knows that and that's why he didn't seem very happy with > himself at the post race. > > His crew chief was not sitting in the car with Dale. Its likely he didn't > even know the situation except as it appeared the last time the group

passed > the pit lane. And when did it ever be such that the crew chief makes the > definitive call on the move a driver makes on the track? And, this wasnot > a "no points, run for the money shoot out." It was a season points > race....not a 20-lap pickup race! And, in all the years I've beenfollowing > racing....or racing myself......I've never seen a "win at all costs"driver

Quoted text (22 lines)

> have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! > > TP > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > You're analyzing waaay to much. He was trying to win the race. It > didn't > > work. Simple as that :) > > > > John > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a > race. > > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to

try > > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), butif

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > it > > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to > gather > > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the > obvious > > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain > unless > > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 > or > > 6 > > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he

could > go > > > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which iswhat > > did > > > happen)! > > > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forces > > Michael > > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require himto > > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale indanger....and

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between > doing > > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend > and > > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think > Dale > > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a

really

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > bad > > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do > you > > > guys think? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Again, I agree with Tom on this one. -Larry "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ba_V8.313251$[email hidden]... > John.... > > Dale Earnhardt lost his life doing just the opposite......and I'm pretty > sure that would be a "world opinion"......not just mine. Dale may havebeen > an aggressive driver in his early years....but he learned from hismistakes > on the track and became a great driver because he made good decisions inthe > race car....and his record proves that he did. He didn't win all those > races by deliberately choosing "no percentage" moves during any race. > > Of course had Jr. gotten "help" that would have at least made his attempta > reasonable one. But, I doubt there's a NASCAR fan on this planet....or > anyone in racing.....that would have thought Rusty would move out of thelow > line to help him. How come Jr. thought he would? > > "Not quite sure what the big deal is; this kind of move/results happenevery > plate race, every year." > > I disagree with you......that kind of stupid move doesn't happen with > somebody as good as Jr. is on the SS....and with the dominance DEI has > displayed on the SS over the last two years......and a DEI stablemate inthe

Quoted text (27 lines)

> lead......Jr. making such a rookie decision....makes it a big deal. > > "His chief told him to go for the win; he didn't tell him how to do it." > > My point exactly. > > TP > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:wJZV8.260678$nZ3.118604@rwcrnsc53... > > > Guys...I'm not analyzing anything too much........and I'm not saying > that > > > Dale shouldn't have at least "tried" for a win. But choosing a move > that > > > had zero percentage of success.....isn't smart....isn't what a racer > > should > > > do. It was stupid...and I didn't expect Dale to be stupid in those > kinds > > of > > > situations. That is what perplexes me. Not the fact that he wanted

to > > win > > > or wanted to try some opportunity if it presented itself. There wasno > > > "opportunity" to win.....at the time he tried Michael on the highside. > > > And, I think he knows that and that's why he didn't seem very happywith

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > himself at the post race. > > > > > > His crew chief was not sitting in the car with Dale. Its likely he > didn't > > > even know the situation except as it appeared the last time the group > > passed > > > the pit lane. And when did it ever be such that the crew chief makes > the > > > definitive call on the move a driver makes on the track? And, this

was

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > not > > > a "no points, run for the money shoot out." It was a season points > > > race....not a 20-lap pickup race! And, in all the years I've been > > following > > > racing....or racing myself......I've never seen a "win at all costs" > > driver > > > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > Oh, I don't know; Dale Earnhardt was a "win at all costs" driver, and

he > > did alright :) Fwiw, if Jr. had had help, he had a very goodopportunity > of > > winning on the outside IMO. > > Bet he would have blown right by Waltrip, with help. But that's not > what > > happened. Not quite sure what the big deal is; this kind ofmove/results

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > happen every plate race, every year. > > His chief told him to go for the win; he didn't tell him how to do it. > > > > Guess I just don't understand what the big deal is. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > You're analyzing waaay to much. He was trying to win the race.

It

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > didn't > > > > work. Simple as that :) > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > > > > > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in

a > > > race. > > > > > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonightto

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > try > > > > > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > > > > > > > > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), > but > > if > > > > it > > > > > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience"

to > > > gather > > > > > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the > > > obvious > > > > > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain > > > unless > > > > > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and theprevious

Quoted text (15 lines)

> 5 > > > or > > > > 6 > > > > > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he > > could > > > go > > > > > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > > > > > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to > follow > > > > > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is > > what > > > > did > > > > > happen)! > > > > > > > > > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he

forces

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > > Michael > > > > > (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require > him > > to > > > > > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > > > > > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his > lead > > > > > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in > > danger....and > > > > > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale > to > > > > > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide

between

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > doing > > > > > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the > friend > > > and > > > > > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I > think > > > Dale > > > > > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a > > really > > > > bad > > > > > place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But,

what

Quoted text (18 lines)

> do > > > you > > > > > guys think? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Tom Pabst wrote: > ......I've never seen a "win at all costs" driver > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! Dale Sr. And JPM. :-P -- Fester

"Larry (The Other Larry)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1t%V8.33420$%%[email hidden]... > I have to agree with Tom here. > > Dale KNEW he was the second place car given the circumstances of themoment.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Sometimes going for the win is not the smart thing to do, and this was one > of them. He just let himself get talked out of what he knew was the right > thing to do. > > -Larry >

I have a feeling that he was influenced by the recent F1 team orders controversy. You know "no last minute challanges of a teammate." etc. After the race I thought I heard him say something like "well at least we can't be accused of using team orders." Sort of trying to uphold the "honor" of NACAR vs. F1. But he should have take 2nd and the points. Just a thought. Elrikk

elrikk wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I have a feeling that he was influenced by the recent F1 team orders > controversy. You know "no last minute challanges of a teammate." etc. > > After the race I thought I heard him say something like "well at least we > can't be accused of using team orders." > > Sort of trying to uphold the "honor" of NACAR vs. F1. > > But he should have take 2nd and the points.

Except if they'd have done it like in F1, MW would have been ordered to pull over & let Jr. win. -- Fester

"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > elrikk wrote: > > > I have a feeling that he was influenced by the recent F1 team orders > > controversy. You know "no last minute challanges of a teammate." etc. > > > > After the race I thought I heard him say something like "well at leastwe

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > can't be accused of using team orders." > > > > Sort of trying to uphold the "honor" of NACAR vs. F1. > > > > But he should have take 2nd and the points. > > > Except if they'd have done it like in F1, MW would have been ordered to > pull over & let Jr. win. > > -- > > Fester >

Yep. I was wondering about that during the last few laps myself. Would they . . . . could they . . . . . Nah. Great stuff. But I'm glad that Michael won. He had the better car and drive on the night. Elrikk

On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:36:26 -0400, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. Man. If I cared I'd go find the Schumacher threads from a month ago to see how many people argued that Schumacher did the wrong thing by letting Rubens win at the Mickey Mouse Ring but are now arguing that Jr should have sat behind his teammate last night... Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:36:26 -0400, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. > > Man. If I cared I'd go find the Schumacher threads from a month ago > to see how many people argued that Schumacher did the wrong thing by > letting Rubens win at the Mickey Mouse Ring but are now arguing that > Jr should have sat behind his teammate last night... > > Jason

Michael S. (in all likelyhood) could have passed Rubens but Michael E. couldn't have passed Michael W. He should have taken 2nd instead of 6th (or whatever). Elrikk

He should have stayed behind his team-mate because it was the SMART and PROPER thing to do. It has nothing to do with Team Politics. Dale knew what was going to happen if he tried that, and he was right. But, he did it anyway because he was talked into it. Dale had the 2nd place car. No amount of magic can over-come that. Mikey was just a tad faster, and Dale knew damned well that Rusty Wallace would never, ever have assisted him on the high side. In short, he was destined to finish second, not first, and he knew it. That's not team orders. That's the reality of racing. The only chance Jr had of winning that race was if Mike screwed up. -Larry "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:36:26 -0400, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. > > Man. If I cared I'd go find the Schumacher threads from a month ago > to see how many people argued that Schumacher did the wrong thing by > letting Rubens win at the Mickey Mouse Ring but are now arguing that > Jr should have sat behind his teammate last night... > > Jason

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Shrug. Guess we'll agree to disagree on just about every point then :) > No big deal. > > John I'm sorry I just can't agree with that. dave henrie :)

elrikk wrote: > Yep. I was wondering about that during the last few laps myself. > > Would they . . . . could they . . . . . Nah. Great stuff. > > But I'm glad that Michael won. He had the better car and drive on the > night. Yep. Nice to see Mikey get a chance finally for a *real* celebration at Daytona. He deserves it. -- Fester

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KY0W8.261780$nZ3.121098@rwcrnsc53... > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Shrug. Guess we'll agree to disagree on just about every point then:)

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > No big deal. > > > > John > I'm sorry I just can't agree with that. > dave henrie > :) >

What, you disagree with the disagreeing, or do you disagree with the agreeing........or is it that you agree to disagree with the agreeing to disagree ? :) John p.s. depends on what your definition of is, is.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:36:26 -0400, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. > > Man. If I cared I'd go find the Schumacher threads from a month ago > to see how many people argued that Schumacher did the wrong thing by > letting Rubens win at the Mickey Mouse Ring but are now arguing that > Jr should have sat behind his teammate last night... > > Jason

Lol, yeah, a bit to much of X files viewing going on with some it seems <G> If, but, dog, rabbit.........guys are racing out there, not doing physics/psychology experiments<G> It ain't rocket science. John

Lol.....oh Dave Henrie....the kidder! Tp "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KY0W8.261780$nZ3.121098@rwcrnsc53... > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Shrug. Guess we'll agree to disagree on just about every point then:)

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > No big deal. > > > > John > I'm sorry I just can't agree with that. > dave henrie > :) > >

Yeah...I agree with "creating opportunities," Francois......but you don't select the low probability ones with 3 or 4 laps to go......you only do that when nothing better has presented itself and you are coming out of T4 on the last lap! Even then......that was his teammate up in front....you know? What do you think Michael would have done (or his dad).....if the situation would have been reversed? Anyway, I'm not "arguing" the fact that what Dale did was stupid......it plain and simple *was* stupid. I'm inquiring as to why he made such a choice. What's going on with him that would cause him to do that........its not like him.....and his success already in a young racing career (particularly on the SS) clearly indicates he knew better (or should have). Is the situation of him trying to be a driver, a team leader, a family business leader......a family leader......taking its toll on Dale? I am 150% behind Dale, Jr. and an admirer of his racing talents. I also don't want to see anymore tragedy in that family. I just wondered what you guys thought was really going on. Tom "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:r__V8.154$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > > There was no "opportunity" to win.. > > You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. > > > > Sometimes you have to gamble, he did even if his chances were pretty low,

it > did not work. Simple as that. I mean, it's the same as every bloodypeople

Quoted text (14 lines)

> who take a chance at the lottery, no? ;) > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Amen to that. Tp "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (17 lines)

> elrikk wrote: > > > Yep. I was wondering about that during the last few laps myself. > > > > Would they . . . . could they . . . . . Nah. Great stuff. > > > > But I'm glad that Michael won. He had the better car and drive on the > > night. > > > Yep. Nice to see Mikey get a chance finally for a *real* celebration at > Daytona. He deserves it. > > -- > > Fester >

Uncle... I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methods appeared to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing) who "thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methods as being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing but plain old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a young Earnhardt in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done winning F1 champs. TP "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Tom Pabst wrote: > > > ......I've never seen a "win at all costs" driver > > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! > > > Dale Sr. And JPM. :-P > > -- > > Fester >

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Se5W8.263649$nZ3.123464@rwcrnsc53... > Uncle... > > I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was > smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methods appeared > to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know > they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing)who > "thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methods as > being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing butplain > old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a youngEarnhardt > in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done > winning F1 champs. i'd like to see them swap cars for a day and see what happens

Tom Pabst wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Uncle... > > I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was > smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methods appeared > to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know > they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing) who > "thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methods as > being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing but plain > old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a young Earnhardt > in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done > winning F1 champs.

I think Dale Sr. started out quite aggressive & got cagier as he aged. Jr will get there as well with time, you can tell the underlying talent base is there. Sr grew up faster, but probably had to. I'm sure Jr will learn from this one quick, letting himself get "taunted" into something he himself disagreed with. When it all comes together for him mentally, he'll be a large force to be reckoned with in WC. -- Fester

All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or to "go for the win" are off point. It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result. Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on back. A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was not. I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 06:46:23 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (16 lines)

>All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or >to "go for the win" are off point. > >It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result. >Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty >likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right >thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on >back. > >A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by >someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A >simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would >have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was >not. > >I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

Uhh... not with that crew it actually IS a family wit I think 3-4 relations on the crew. I did'nt like the way it came across on the radio either the " if you get a chance" approach would have been better and I think Tony Eury will do it that way if it happens again ( he does learn unlike some other CC out there). BTWY: what did you all think about the fact that they are using I.M in the pitst for the three C.C's to talk, anyone not think this idea came from Jr and his online experience

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or > to "go for the win" are off point. > > It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result. > Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty > likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right > thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on > back. > > A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by > someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A > simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would > have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was > not. > > I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

Oh, brother. All this from a conversation paraphrased by a PIT REPORTER.................sheesh. Poor old Jr.; non-thinking, robotic idiot........"rolls eyes"........ John

Absolutely "spot on" comments........thanks! TP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or > to "go for the win" are off point. > > It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result. > Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty > likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right > thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on > back. > > A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by > someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A > simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would > have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was > not. > > I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

Oh c'mon John...... Who would you have it "paraphrased from" better? A booth announcer? A fan in the stands? Geeeeeesh! Those pit reporters are as close to the drivers and teams of NASCAR....as the drivers and teams of NASCAR are! Every three days....they spend four days with them hanging around in the pits. The pit reporters are as much of the NASCAR family as anyone in the NASCAR family. And, they usually know 100 times more than what they publicly report. How long do you think......would one of those reporters last in that environment if they got tagged by the drivers and crew as "purposely distorting facts and truth".....for the sake of a story? Probably about five minutes, dude! Find another angle to dispute the importance of this, John. TP "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (27 lines)

> > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or > > to "go for the win" are off point. > > > > It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result. > > Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty > > likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right > > thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on > > back. > > > > A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by > > someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A > > simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would > > have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was > > not. > > > > I'd be looking for a new crew cheif. > > Oh, brother. All this from a conversation paraphrased by a PIT > REPORTER.................sheesh. Poor old Jr.; non-thinking, robotic > idiot........"rolls eyes"........ > > John > >

Agree totally.......thanks for the input. TP "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tom Pabst wrote: > > Uncle... > > > > I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was > > smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methodsappeared > > to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know > > they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing)who > > "thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methodsas > > being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing butplain > > old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a youngEarnhardt

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done > > winning F1 champs. > > > I think Dale Sr. started out quite aggressive & got cagier as he aged. > Jr will get there as well with time, you can tell the underlying talent > base is there. Sr grew up faster, but probably had to. I'm sure Jr > will learn from this one quick, letting himself get "taunted" into > something he himself disagreed with. When it all comes together for him > mentally, he'll be a large force to be reckoned with in WC. > > -- > > Fester > > >

Tom, His Crew Chief talked him into it. Dale knew it was the wrong thing to do (evident in his after-race interview), but he did it anyway to please others. -Larry "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TP4W8.269158$[email hidden]... > Yeah...I agree with "creating opportunities," Francois......but you don't > select the low probability ones with 3 or 4 laps to go......you only dothat > when nothing better has presented itself and you are coming out of T4 onthe > last lap! Even then......that was his teammate up in front....you know? > What do you think Michael would have done (or his dad).....if thesituation > would have been reversed? > > Anyway, I'm not "arguing" the fact that what Dale did was stupid......it > plain and simple *was* stupid. I'm inquiring as to why he made such a > choice. What's going on with him that would cause him to dothat........its > not like him.....and his success already in a young racing career > (particularly on the SS) clearly indicates he knew better (or shouldhave).

Quoted text (21 lines)

> Is the situation of him trying to be a driver, a team leader, a family > business leader......a family leader......taking its toll on Dale? I am > 150% behind Dale, Jr. and an admirer of his racing talents. I also don't > want to see anymore tragedy in that family. > > I just wondered what you guys thought was really going on. > > Tom > > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:r__V8.154$[email hidden]... > > >"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > There was no "opportunity" to win.. > > > > You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. > > > > > > > > Sometimes you have to gamble, he did even if his chances were pretty

low,

Quoted text (19 lines)

> it > > did not work. Simple as that. I mean, it's the same as every bloody > people > > who take a chance at the lottery, no? ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > > >

Dr Bob gets it, and is exactly right. I don't think I"d fire Tony yet, but I'd sure have a talk with him :) -Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or > to "go for the win" are off point. > > It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result. > Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty > likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right > thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on > back. > > A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by > someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A > simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would > have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was > not. > > I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

I didn't read this whole thread so maybe someone covered it, but it was Tony who told him to go for the win. Jr clearly didn't want to do it. I bought racecast and listened to the whole thing. They even got in a huge fight about it afterwards because Jr was pissed. Tony said something like if he doesn't think he should have tried to make that pass he's totally lost it as a driver. Then I think it was the spotter came on and said they should clear this up off the air and that was the last word from anyone. That's why in the interview Jr was all down and Tony comes running over to talk to him. Note, just for the record I don't think this is that big of a deal. These guys (drivers and crew chiefs) are always going at it over something. I've heard a lot worse than this. Tom "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fOQV8.308741$[email hidden]... > I know its easy to "Monday morning quarterback" somebody's move in a race. > But I really was perplexed at the decision Dale, Jr. made tonight to try > Michael "high" with only a couple laps left in the Pepsi 400. > > I am hoping somebody talked him into that (like a crew chief???), but ifit > was his own decision then it shows he has some more "experience" to gather > up at the SS tracks. What was he trying to gain? Other than the obvious > lead? He had everything to loose....and virtually nothing to gain unless > his car was just that much stronger than Dale's.....and the previous 5 or6 > laps should have told him it wasn't! Unless Dale, Jr. thought he could go > high on his own....and just drive around Michael with no help (not > likely).....then he should have known that Rusty would have to follow > him....or he'd be "toast" and going straight to the back (which is whatdid > happen)! > > But even worse! What if Rusty did go high with him? Now he forcesMichael

Quoted text (9 lines)

> (his friend and teammate) into a blocking move that would require him to > pinch Dale to the outside wall. A dangerous block....but one, > IMHO......Michael was obligated to make to attempt to protect his lead > position. But, what if Michael decided not to put Dale in danger....and > just let him go around? That would have been a bad thing for Dale to > do......to put Michael in that position of having to decide between doing > what the racer in him said was correct......and doing what the friend and > teammate in him said was "safe" for Dale. Bad deal....IMHO. I think Dale > owes Michael a personal "apology" for almost putting Michael in a really

bad

Quoted text (9 lines)

> place! That's just my opinion.......post-race as it is. But, what do you > guys think? > > Regards, > > Tom > > >

The lottery is a stupid place to gamble too. :-) David G Fisher "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:r__V8.154$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > > There was no "opportunity" to win.. > > You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. > > > > Sometimes you have to gamble, he did even if his chances were pretty low,

it > did not work. Simple as that. I mean, it's the same as every bloodypeople

Quoted text (14 lines)

> who take a chance at the lottery, no? ;) > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Especially since they made him stay behind Earnhardt at Talladega with team orders.....just like F1. David G Fisher "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RT4W8.263473$nZ3.122985@rwcrnsc53...

Quoted text (26 lines)

> Amen to that. > > Tp > > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > elrikk wrote: > > > > > Yep. I was wondering about that during the last few laps myself. > > > > > > Would they . . . . could they . . . . . Nah. Great stuff. > > > > > > But I'm glad that Michael won. He had the better car and drive on the > > > night. > > > > > > Yep. Nice to see Mikey get a chance finally for a *real* celebration at > > Daytona. He deserves it. > > > > -- > > > > Fester > > > >

JPM has.....one win. "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Tom Pabst wrote: > > > ......I've never seen a "win at all costs" driver > > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys! > > > Dale Sr. And JPM. :-P > > -- > > Fester >

The lottery is a stupid place to gamble too. :-) David G Fisher "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:r__V8.154$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > > There was no "opportunity" to win.. > > You don't "get" opportunities, you create them. > > > > Sometimes you have to gamble, he did even if his chances were pretty low,

it > did not work. Simple as that. I mean, it's the same as every bloodypeople

Quoted text (14 lines)

> who take a chance at the lottery, no? ;) > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

MS would beat him just like his brother has done. David G Fisher "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lU5W8.59667$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Se5W8.263649$nZ3.123464@rwcrnsc53... > > Uncle... > > > > I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was > > smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methods

appeared > > to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know > > they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing) > who > > "thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methodsas

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing but > plain > > old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a young > Earnhardt > > in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done > > winning F1 champs. > > i'd like to see them swap cars for a day and see what happens > > >

David G Fisher wrote: > Especially since they made him stay behind Earnhardt at Talladega with team > orders.....just like F1. Wrongo. In F1, the *leader* would have to *pull over* & let the 2nd place driver win. Pay attention. :-) -- Fester

David G Fisher wrote: > JPM has.....one win. We're talking mental attitude. Not history 101. Besides, Ferrari drivers only have a "win if the team will allow me to" attitude. That's commendable? -- Fester

> > I just wondered what you guys thought was really going on. > > Tom > As usual this will take a little while to set-up but bear with me...it might help esplain. Many Years ago, When Al Unser Jr was young and his Dad was still racing(for Roger Penske I believe) they came down to the last race of the season at Miami in a virtual dead heat for the CART championship. Al Sr. had to finish something like 6th to clinch the title.(I'm going from a very faded memory so don't sweat the little details) Anyhow, Sr is trailing Jr and the end of the race is approaching. Penske is on the radio big time because he sensed that DAD was laying back for his son. Penske reminded Al Sr that the sponsors paid a-lot of money to see their names on the winning car, that the team had worked very hard all year(Rick Mears even did testing when he couldn't walk yet because of foot injuries) and that he was at that moment a race driver not a father. Slowly Sr. got the message and closed in and passed his son, getting just enough points to win the season championship. Jr missed out on what would have been his first Cart trophy. How does this apply here? Well they weren't on a SS so there was no danger of loosing spots if the pass didn't work, but the fact is...the driver is just the very tip of a large pyramid. Can you demand and receive 100% from those lower down the team/pyramid if they KNOW the driver isn't gonna try just as hard? Jr did know better, Jr did know what was going to happen. But Jr also knew there were hundreds of others who had sweated blood to put him in that posistion. He owed it to the DEI team to TRY. And what IF the 4th place car wasn't the Points leader, coasting around for points? What if some young gun had slipped in behind Rusty...do you think he too would have stayed put? If Rusty hadn't already hung out his own teammate, then someone like Ryan Newman would have jumped at the chance to follow the #8 car and possibly push him to the front. dave henrie

"Larry (The Other Larry)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1t%V8.33420$%%[email hidden]... > I have to agree with Tom here. > > Dale KNEW he was the second place car given the circumstances of themoment. > > Sometimes going for the win is not the smart thing to do, and this was one > of them. He just let himself get talked out of what he knew was the right > thing to do. > > -Larry Everyone makes finishing 6th vs 2nd such a painful result. Heck with Nascar Scoring he could have tried twice and lost a dozen places and still not hurt his season very much. dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote: > Everyone makes finishing 6th vs 2nd such a painful result. Heck with > Nascar Scoring he could have tried twice and lost a dozen places and still > not hurt his season very much. Not so much a painful result as it was just a foolish tactical decision. And showing an immature mental attitude by allowing himself to be taunted & demeaned into doing what he knew in his heart was not right. He's a quick learner though. I don't look for repeats. -- Fester

I fully understand that the difference between 2nd and 6th isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but that's not been the real argument here :) -Larry "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7VBW8.338138$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > "Larry (The Other Larry)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:1t%V8.33420$%%[email hidden]... > > I have to agree with Tom here. > > > > Dale KNEW he was the second place car given the circumstances of the > moment. > > > > Sometimes going for the win is not the smart thing to do, and this was

one > > of them. He just let himself get talked out of what he knew was theright

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > thing to do. > > > > -Larry > Everyone makes finishing 6th vs 2nd such a painful result. Heck with > Nascar Scoring he could have tried twice and lost a dozen places and still > not hurt his season very much. > dave henrie > >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:k9vW8.636136$%[email hidden]: > MS would beat him just like his brother has done. > Doesn't JPM lead RS in the championship right now though? 31pts to 30. Let action speak louder than words, etc. some other interesting stats: http://www.dailyf1.com/en/common/stats.shtml cheers John

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in > driver is just the very tip of a large pyramid. Can you demand and > receive 100% from those lower down the team/pyramid if they KNOW the > driver isn't gonna try just as hard? Ferrari seem to think so! ;o) cheers John

JM wrote: > Doesn't JPM lead RS in the championship right now though? > 31pts to 30. Let action speak louder than words, etc. > > some other interesting stats: > > http://www.dailyf1.com/en/common/stats.shtml You mean like Qualifying Battle Teammates (JPM), or Avg Qualifying Position (JPM), or Pole Positions (JPM), or Fastest Laps (JPM)... Nah, JPM-bashers refuse to let facts get in the way of their emotional arguments. Remember: RS has been rubbing JPM's face in it since his entry into F1. NOT. -- Fester

"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (15 lines)

> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:k9vW8.636136$%[email hidden]: > > > MS would beat him just like his brother has done. > > > > Doesn't JPM lead RS in the championship right now though? > 31pts to 30. Let action speak louder than words, etc. > > some other interesting stats: > > http://www.dailyf1.com/en/common/stats.shtml > > cheers > John

Luckily for JPM, Williams has managed to destroy two of the last three races for RS in the pits, allowing JPM to catch up. It wasn't close beteen RS and JPM last year, and while it is closer this year, it still is obvious that the JPM hype is all hot air, or else RS is his equal. One or the other. BTW, RS has four times as many wins as JPM as teammates. David G Fisher

On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:52:58 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

>Dave Henrie wrote: > >> Everyone makes finishing 6th vs 2nd such a painful result. Heck with >> Nascar Scoring he could have tried twice and lost a dozen places and still >> not hurt his season very much. > > >Not so much a painful result as it was just a foolish tactical decision. > And showing an immature mental attitude by allowing himself to be >taunted & demeaned into doing what he knew in his heart was not right. > >He's a quick learner though. I don't look for repeats.

Actually in THAT race 1&2 get to participate in the next"No Bull Million" Which means at the next race with A No Bull partnership if a driver that is in the program wins the race then he (and a FAN) wins 1MILLION each. So points wise not a big deal but the extra Million is nice and on a SS track thats the team everyone is looking at

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > Luckily for JPM, Williams has managed to destroy two of the last three > races for RS in the pits, allowing JPM to catch up. > > It wasn't close beteen RS and JPM last year, and while it is closer > this year, it still is obvious that the JPM hype is all hot air, or > else RS is his equal. One or the other. > > BTW, RS has four times as many wins as JPM as teammates. > > David G Fisher >

Come on Dave, I'm no JPM flag waving nutter, but you're telling me JPM hasn't had his own share of bad luck to equal that of Ralph? We'll leave it to the history books and the facts to say who was the better driver. I'm betting the history books will show JPM outshadowing RS in every regard (they already do for this year- have you looked at the site I posted?). That's not fact, just an opinion based on their current situation. If we plot the drivers' relative performances on a year by year chart, we should see the trend showing JPM as enormously superior to RS next year- that's assuming we use your (IMO spurious) logic to say that JPM can only stand on his previous year results, when he is clearly, currently, the better of the two Williams drivers this year. Seven races left to go for Ralph to score more points. I doubt that will happen, myself. cheers ;o) John

In article <[email hidden]>, ssrat <[email hidden]> writes: > Actually in THAT race 1&2 get to participate in the next"No Bull >Million" > Which means at the next race with A No Bull partnership if a driver >that is in the program wins the race then he (and a FAN) wins 1MILLION >each. I thought it was the Top *5*...? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, JM <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>If we plot the drivers' relative performances on a year by year chart, we >should see the trend showing JPM as enormously superior to RS next year- >that's assuming we use your (IMO spurious) logic to say that JPM can only >stand on his previous year results, when he is clearly, currently, the >better of the two Williams drivers this year. Seven races left to go for >Ralph to score more points. I doubt that will happen, myself. >

I think Ralf will score more points this season. He *is* a good driver, with a good team. Having said that, I still like JPM better.<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in > I think Ralf will score more points this season. He *is* a good > driver, with a good team. Having said that, I still like JPM > better.<g> > > Eldred I agree Ralph will score more points this season.... than he has done already, but not more than JPM will :o) cheers John

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, JM<[email hidden]>

Quoted text (11 lines)

> writes: > > >If we plot the drivers' relative performances on a year by year chart, we > >should see the trend showing JPM as enormously superior to RS next year- > >that's assuming we use your (IMO spurious) logic to say that JPM can only > >stand on his previous year results, when he is clearly, currently, the > >better of the two Williams drivers this year. Seven races left to go for > >Ralph to score more points. I doubt that will happen, myself. > > > > I think Ralf will score more points this season. He *is* a good driver,

with a > good team. Having said that, I still like JPM better.<g> > > Eldred UK Daily Mirror christened him the Anna Kournikova of F1 on Saturday in their betting column. Hype not matched by victories (all of 1). A foolish bet they said. They said he's the bookies best friend in F1. I don't agree that he's the AK of F1, but my point has always been that he's overhyped. I'm more impressed by KR, JB, and even FM. In better cars, each one of those three would be doing just a swell as JPM or better IMO. David G Fisher

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, JM<[email hidden]>

Quoted text (11 lines)

> writes: > > >If we plot the drivers' relative performances on a year by year chart, we > >should see the trend showing JPM as enormously superior to RS next year- > >that's assuming we use your (IMO spurious) logic to say that JPM can only > >stand on his previous year results, when he is clearly, currently, the > >better of the two Williams drivers this year. Seven races left to go for > >Ralph to score more points. I doubt that will happen, myself. > > > > I think Ralf will score more points this season. He *is* a good driver,

with a > good team. Having said that, I still like JPM better.<g> > > Eldred UK Daily Mirror christened him the Anna Kournikova of F1 on Saturday in their betting column. Hype not matched by victories (all of 1). A foolish bet they said. They said he's the bookies best friend in F1. I don't agree that he's the AK of F1, but my point has always been that he's overhyped. I'm more impressed by KR, JB, and even FM. In better cars, each one of those three would be doing just a swell as JPM or better IMO. David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in > I don't agree that he's the AK of F1, but my point has always been > that he's overhyped. I'm more impressed by KR, JB, and even FM. In > better cars, each one of those three would be doing just a swell as > JPM or better IMO. > > David G Fisher I agree... and a lot better than RS ;o) cheers John

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> In article <[email hidden]>, ssrat > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Actually in THAT race 1&2 get to participate in the next"No Bull > >Million" > > Which means at the next race with A No Bull partnership if a driver > >that is in the program wins the race then he (and a FAN) wins 1MILLION > >each. > > I thought it was the Top *5*...? > > Eldred > --

It is Eldred. John

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DD0X8.25744$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, JM > <[email hidden]> > > writes: > > > > >If we plot the drivers' relative performances on a year by year chart,

we > > >should see the trend showing JPM as enormously superior to RS nextyear- > > >that's assuming we use your (IMO spurious) logic to say that JPM canonly > > >stand on his previous year results, when he is clearly, currently, the > > >better of the two Williams drivers this year. Seven races left to gofor

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > >Ralph to score more points. I doubt that will happen, myself. > > > > > > > I think Ralf will score more points this season. He *is* a good driver, > with a > > good team. Having said that, I still like JPM better.<g> > > > > Eldred > > UK Daily Mirror christened him the Anna Kournikova of F1 on > Saturday in their betting column. Hype not matched by victories (all of

1). > A > foolish bet they said. They said he's the bookies > best friend in F1. > > I don't agree that he's the AK of F1, but my point has always been thathe's > overhyped. I'm more impressed by KR, JB, and even FM. In better cars, each > one of those three would be doing just a swell as JPM or better IMO. > > David G Fisher > Now if he only LOOKED like Anna........... John > >

In article <DD0X8.25744$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >UK Daily Mirror christened him the Anna Kournikova of F1 on >Saturday in their betting column. Hype not matched by victories (all of 1). >A >foolish bet they said. They said he's the bookies >best friend in F1. > Hehe... >I don't agree that he's the AK of F1, but my point has always been that he's >overhyped. I'm more impressed by KR, JB, and even FM. In better cars, each >one of those three would be doing just a swell as JPM or better IMO. Kimi I'll agree with on potential talent. Jenson seems to be in too much of a slump, and I don't know enough about Felippe... But I don't think the McLaren is that much slower than the Williams, maybe even equal. McLaren just forgot how to do race strategy... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Either that or "Okay, this is what happens when you make me look like an ass in front of 400,000 fans" -- Tim White INTRAC Motorsports www.birds-i-view.com/intrac "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:X%QV8.310877$[email hidden]... > His crew chief talked him into going for the win, they said earlier that Jr > had transmitted to his crewchief that he was going to stay with Michael and > help him, and his crew chief encouraged him to go for the win, Jr told him > if that was what he wanted, that's what he would do. > > Don Burnette >