Setup Step by step???

When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow this method. 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. 2. adjust gearing 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a nice inside to outside progression. 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little negative camber out of one side will help it turn. 5. check air pressures again... 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how those help me at each individual track. (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in GENERAL this should apply to most road course sims right?) What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE the fast rebound or lower it? And ditto for the slow rebound........ <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> dave henrie

One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C, and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is the preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance - how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps across the tire. Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and especially ARB stiffness can help this. AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the track. Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations, a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, which really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually followthis > method. > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > 2. adjust gearing > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get anice

Quoted text (7 lines)

> inside to outside progression. > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > 5. check air pressures again... > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how

those help > me at each individual track. > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but inGENERAL > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE thefast

Quoted text (7 lines)

> rebound or lower it? > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > dave henrie > > >

Dave Henrie wrote: > Ok, couple of basic setup rules...... 1. springs The end of the car with the most roll stiffness (springs/roll bars) has the least grip, i.e, if you "soften" the front end of the car it will get more grip, and if you stiffen it, it will loose grip, if you stiffen both ends an equal amount, you will have less overall grip, but the car will be more responsive Softer springs = more grip, less responsive Stiffer springs = less grip, better response So a "beginner" setup would generally be relatively soft, transitions won't happen too suddenly and the grip levels will be higher This all assuming steady state cornering btw 2. Shocks Shocks hardly come into play at all during steady state cornering, so once the car is settled into a turn, it doesn't really matter what shock settings you've got (yes yes I know, simplified) Where the shocks make a difference, assuming we're on a smooth track of course, is during the transitional stage, i.e. entering and exiting turns, where a stiffer shock will give more grip at that end because it makes the car "settle" quicker, enter steady state cornering faster if you will, and a car has more grip when it's settled However, unlike with springs where we generally have only one setting, with shocks we have two, compression and rebound, and they affect the handing of the car differently, I always get those mixed up and need to check my books for reference here so I don't give out wrong info and I don't have my books at hand, I'll get back to you on those unless some others chip in 3. Anti Roll Bars ARB's are a funny thing, on a road car they are one of the best inventions ever made, while on a race car they tend to be used more as a quick adjustment tool The thing is, because of their very nature, they connect the suspension on one side of the car with the other side, they are hindering a totally independent movement of the suspension, meaning that when you enter a corner and the outside suspension is compressed, the ARB is actually trying to compress the inside wheel as well, and that's no good for the grip, this is however balanced out with the fact that we get less body roll for a given set of springs, which is a big advantage again, body roll isn't exactly something we aim for, so the draw backs of the ARB's are balanced out with the advantages, to a point Another big advantage is of course hat ARB's are easily adjustable, and any decent race car has adjustable ARB's at least at the rear, and preferably from within the car itself as this means you can adjust the handling of the car as your tires wear and the fuel load lightens, unless it's illegal in your racing class of course, but even if it is, you can adjust the ARB's in a minute or two during practice, takes a bit longer to change springs, so once you get the springs about right, you fine tune the handling with the ARB's, same principle there, softer bar means less roll resistance means more grip at that end My rule of thumb has always been to use soft ARB's when I run stiff springs and vice versa, I know it doesn't always work, but as a ground rule it's not too bad 4.Tires I'm on more of a shaky ground here as I've never had any fresh racing tires to play around with on my car, but I believe that the general thinking here is roughly the same as with the suspension, a softer (less pressure) tire has a more progressive transient handling and more grip (assuming we're running within reasonable pressures here), whereas a harder tire (more pressure) has less roll resistance and gives better feedback and response, they also generally run cooler as they deflect less overall and unless you over inflate the tire, it should generally run cooler, unless you over inflate it of course, in which case you reduce the contact patch of the tire on the track and certain parts of the tire (center) will have to do more work and you may over heat it locally 5. Books There are a couple of good books on the subject, my fav book is not at hand and I can't for the life of me remember the name of it or the author, I'll have to get back on that How to make your car handle - Fred Puhn (it's road cars, but the same principle applies) Tune to Win - Carrol Smith (Not too thrilled by this one really, but he doesn't disagree with the other author's I read and he certainly knows about race cars, I just find his writing style a bit much) I'm sure Steve Smith has written a couple too, he always seems to have :-) If you want to test out some of this, DL Tim McArthur's "Skid Pad" for N3 and do some testing, or load up a symmetrical setup and try some laps at an oval, just make sure you differentiate between transitional cornering and steady state cornering Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Did you read the book? No help? "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow this > method. > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > 2. adjust gearing > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get anice

Quoted text (7 lines)

> inside to outside progression. > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > 5. check air pressures again... > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how those

help > me at each individual track. > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but inGENERAL > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE thefast

Quoted text (7 lines)

> rebound or lower it? > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > dave henrie > > >

Haqsau, The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same thing as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, which are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops back down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, rear-end lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the pavement. The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as hell under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined with stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on the GPL suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. Private lessons available for a fee. --Steve "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ahn3ru$u5132$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (80 lines)

> One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower > the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C, > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by > raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is the > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump > damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are > too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance - > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps > across the tire. > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the > tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the > old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it > causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and especially > ARB stiffness can help this. > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that > use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than > you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the > track. > > Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady > braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations, > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on > the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change > dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, which > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping > rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow > this > > method. > > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > > 2. adjust gearing > > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a > nice > > inside to outside progression. > > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > > 5. check air pressures again... > > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how > those help > > me at each individual track. > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in > GENERAL > > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE the > fast > > rebound or lower it? > > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > > dave henrie > > > > > > >

Well, like I said, it's tricky. What I meant by "only in use when the chassis is moving vertically" is that they only have an effect when there is vertical movement of the suspension. Poor phrasing in retrospect, but I was trying to emphasize that if the suspension isn't in motion the dampers aren't doing anything. Maybe I should have said "only when the spindles are in motion" or something, I don't know. I guess the term vertical motion throws some people, but I don't know how else to describe it - whether pitching, rolling, jouncing, or rebounding there is vertical motion, as opposed to acceleration, deceleration, and yawing which are all horizontal motions. So for example the dampers only affect brake dive when you first hit the brakes - after the chassis has settled they are no longer doing anything, even though you are still on the brakes. They affect it again, and oppositely, when you lift off the brakes. I wanted to clarify that because some people have the impression that you can control understeer during turn entry and exit with dampers, and that's only partially true - the dampers affect the car's attitude during initial turn-in, brake lift-off, chassis roll, accelerator tip-in, and chassis unrolling, but not in between those points. In between those points the car's attitude is most strongly governed by springs, bars, brake bias, and differential lock. So there is a method to determining when to adjust dampers as opposed to those other things - only adjust the dampers if you are trying to modify the handling of the vehicle during those transitional phases when the chassis is in vertical motion. Concerning tire temps, while it does have something to do with driving style also, changing the damping will change the tire temps even if you are careful to maintain the same driving style. Because the dampers change the transient response of the suspension, they are also changing the vertical load on the tires during transients. F = ma. Stiffer bump/softer rebound dampers will raise tire temps by raising the average vertical load on the tire. Softer bump/stiffer rebound damping decreases tire temps. Granted, changing dampers only to change tire temps is a bit tricky, given the number of other things that are affected. It makes more sense to change the springs usually. But it's part of the toolkit and it's good to know what the effect is. Tire temps are a very direct and effective way of determining whether you have the right amount of suspension compliance for the tire and the track (provided that you are a smooth driver - if not the temps are rubbish!). "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S3I%8.196768$[email hidden]... > Haqsau, > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the samething > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, realor > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients,which > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down toreconnect > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire dropsback > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,rear-end > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with thepavement. > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrellyas hell > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combinedwith > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments onthe GPL

Quoted text (7 lines)

> suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > > Private lessons available for a fee. > > --Steve > >

Goy Larsen wrote: > > 5. Books > > There are a couple of good books on the subject, my fav book is not at > hand and I can't for the life of me remember the name of it or the > author, I'll have to get back on that "Performance handling" (how to make your car handle, techniques for the 1990's) by Don Alexander This is my bible :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Steve Smith wrote: > > Did you read the book? No help? Which one ? :-) Seriously Steve, which books have you written on the subject, I feel the need to add to my personal library and there's a decent Automobilia book shop an hour's drive from here Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

Haqsau, "...the dampers only affect brake dive when you first hit the brakes...." Even trickier than that. In re shock 'stagger', if you have the front jounce settings soft and the rear rebound settings stiff, the rear end will still be reacting after the front has settled (as the rear hyd. fluid is still squirting thru those tiny orifices). Still trickier: if you have the right & left shock values staggered, applying the brakes in a straight line can make the car turn (pitch+roll=yaw). And that doesn't even begin to account for what happens to the car's attitude depending on how violently the suspension gets into the rubbers. (Nor, in the RW, does it cover the difference between lo-Hz suspension flex v. hi-Hz movement, which GPL doesn't model.) As we both agree: tricky stuff. --Steve "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ahnqc3$use2e$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (80 lines)

> Well, like I said, it's tricky. What I meant by "only in use when the > chassis is moving vertically" is that they only have an effect when > there is vertical movement of the suspension. Poor phrasing in > retrospect, but I was trying to emphasize that if the suspension isn't > in motion the dampers aren't doing anything. Maybe I should have said > "only when the spindles are in motion" or something, I don't know. I > guess the term vertical motion throws some people, but I don't know how > else to describe it - whether pitching, rolling, jouncing, or rebounding > there is vertical motion, as opposed to acceleration, deceleration, and > yawing which are all horizontal motions. So for example the dampers > only affect brake dive when you first hit the brakes - after the chassis > has settled they are no longer doing anything, even though you are still > on the brakes. They affect it again, and oppositely, when you lift off > the brakes. I wanted to clarify that because some people have the > impression that you can control understeer during turn entry and exit > with dampers, and that's only partially true - the dampers affect the > car's attitude during initial turn-in, brake lift-off, chassis roll, > accelerator tip-in, and chassis unrolling, but not in between those > points. In between those points the car's attitude is most strongly > governed by springs, bars, brake bias, and differential lock. So there > is a method to determining when to adjust dampers as opposed to those > other things - only adjust the dampers if you are trying to modify the > handling of the vehicle during those transitional phases when the > chassis is in vertical motion. > > Concerning tire temps, while it does have something to do with driving > style also, changing the damping will change the tire temps even if you > are careful to maintain the same driving style. Because the dampers > change the transient response of the suspension, they are also changing > the vertical load on the tires during transients. F = ma. Stiffer > bump/softer rebound dampers will raise tire temps by raising the average > vertical load on the tire. Softer bump/stiffer rebound damping > decreases tire temps. Granted, changing dampers only to change tire > temps is a bit tricky, given the number of other things that are > affected. It makes more sense to change the springs usually. But it's > part of the toolkit and it's good to know what the effect is. Tire > temps are a very direct and effective way of determining whether you > have the right amount of suspension compliance for the tire and the > track (provided that you are a smooth driver - if not the temps are > rubbish!). > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:S3I%8.196768$[email hidden]... > > Haqsau, > > > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same > thing > > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real > or > > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, > which > > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, > > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at > > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to > reconnect > > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops > back > > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, > rear-end > > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the > pavement. > > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can > > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. > > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly > as hell > > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire > > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined > with > > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on > the GPL > > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > > > > Private lessons available for a fee. > > > > --Steve > > > > > >

Goy, The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy guide I wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave Henrie, who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with one of the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." In it, I thought I had addressed the methodology of arrving at setups. I agree that the gear splits are a good place to start. The exact progression is somewhat arbitrary (or based on subjective "hunches"), but as I indicated in my exchange w. Haqsau, the shocks are probably the last thing I get dialed in (altho I almost always try some NASCAR-style weight jacking toward the end). It's not a linear progression. You keep circling the same parameters. As you get dialed in, your exit speed from any given corner increases, raising your Vmax on the following straight, neccessitating a longer gear. As you get more comfortable with a track and a setup that's beginning to work for you, you get more camber gain, so you have to keep notching the negative camber back. As you go faster, you put more heat in the tires, which can demand spring, shock, and/or TP changes. Etc. In the beta days, Alison Hine was amazed at how I could zero in on a setup within 20 minutes. Now she's better at it than I am. (Of course, being a better driver helps, too.) --Steve "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (20 lines)

> > > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > Did you read the book? No help? > > Which one ? :-) > > Seriously Steve, which books have you written on the subject, I feel the > need to add to my personal library and there's a decent Automobilia book > shop an hour's drive from here > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

Quick Question... Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate. Right? Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a slower rate. Right? I never could get this straight. Shocks confuse the hell out of me, even after reading Rodney's setup guide. I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then use these in my setups. Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I have no clue how to handle. -Larry "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S3I%8.196768$[email hidden]... > Haqsau, > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the samething

Quoted text (8 lines)

> as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, which > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops back > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, rear-end > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the

pavement. > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly ashell > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined with > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on theGPL

Quoted text (91 lines)

> suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > > Private lessons available for a fee. > > --Steve > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ahn3ru$u5132$[email hidden]... > > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower > > the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C, > > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average > > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by > > raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is the > > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump > > damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are > > too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance - > > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps > > across the tire. > > > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the > > tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how > > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the > > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension > > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the > > old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it > > causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and especially > > ARB stiffness can help this. > > > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that > > use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto > > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more > > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than > > you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really > > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your > > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the > > track. > > > > Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is > > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady > > braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application > > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner > > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations, > > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound > > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on > > the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient > > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any > > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart > > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change > > dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, which > > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly > > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping > > rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly > > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly > > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control > > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > > > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow > > this > > > method. > > > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > > > 2. adjust gearing > > > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a > > nice > > > inside to outside progression. > > > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little > > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > > > 5. check air pressures again... > > > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > > > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > > > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how > > those help > > > me at each individual track. > > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in > > GENERAL > > > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > > > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE the > > fast > > > rebound or lower it? > > > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > Goy, > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy guideI > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave Henrie, > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with oneof > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of settings do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from track to track. dave henrie > >

I am very similar to Dave in the way that I setup my cars. I get to about the same point as Dave and then It gets very hard to work out if the adjustments that I make are in fact improving my Lap Times, or if it is just a psychological thing. My lap times ARE getting slightly better, but that could also be achieved by the extra practice that I am putting in due to the constant Test Driving. I usually go back to the Setup that is at the point before I started playing with the shocks etc. I then find that my lap times don't suffer by doing so. Would it be possible for someone to write a program that could extract lap data and create an appropriate car setup to suit the driving style? I know that this might take the fun out of it for you Setup Junkies, but it would be great for guys like Dave and I that get lost in the Setup Junk Yard :-). After all, the real F1 teams get computer help with their car setups. What do you guys think of this idea? Darf "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > Goy, > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategyguide > I > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, DaveHenrie, > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come withone

Quoted text (14 lines)

> of > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of settings > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from > track to track. > dave henrie > > > > > >

Larry, Lower = softer. Hence, in rebound (or "droop," as the Brits picturesquely call it) , yes, a higher number means the shock expands more slowly. In jounce, yes, a higher number means the shock compresses more slowly. Presumably, you're talking abt. NASCAR Racing. Altho the principles remain the same, I find the suspension settings far more mysterious...and stuff that has worked for me since IndyCar Racing on road circuits doesn't have the desired effect in N2002 (or N3 or even N2). I use the 'store-bought' settings that ship with the game, with some minor adjustments in the gearing and--to get the temps more even--a few clicks of the TPs and cambers. --Steve "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EVS%8.133019$%%[email hidden]... > Quick Question... > > Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate.Right?

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a slower > rate. Right? > > I never could get this straight. Shocks confuse the hell out of me, even > after reading Rodney's setup guide. > > I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then use these

in

Quoted text (15 lines)

> my setups. Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I have no > clue how to handle. > > -Larry > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:S3I%8.196768$[email hidden]... > > Haqsau, > > > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same > thing > > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or > > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients,

which > > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, > > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at > > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down toreconnect > > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire dropsback > > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,rear-end

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the > pavement. > > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can > > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. > > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as > hell > > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire > > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined with > > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on the > GPL > > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > > > > Private lessons available for a fee. > > > > --Steve > > > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ahn3ru$u5132$[email hidden]... > > > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower > > > the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85

C, > > > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still onlyaverage > > > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by > > > raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate isthe > > > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump > > > damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are > > > too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspensioncompliance - > > > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps > > > across the tire. > > > > > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the > > > tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how > > > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get onthe > > > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension > > > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the > > > old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it > > > causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension andespecially > > > ARB stiffness can help this. > > > > > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that > > > use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settlesonto > > > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more > > > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearancethan > > > you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really > > > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your > > > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the > > > track. > > > > > > Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassisis > > > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady > > > braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttleapplication > > > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate atcorner > > > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In thosesituations, > > > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stifferrebound > > > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal forceon > > > the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient > > > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any > > > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart > > > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change > > > dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference,which > > > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly > > > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping > > > rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly > > > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly > > > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steeringcontrol > > > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. > > > > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > > > > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usuallyfollow > > > this > > > > method. > > > > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > > > > 2. adjust gearing > > > > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to geta > > > nice > > > > inside to outside progression. > > > > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking alittle

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > > > > 5. check air pressures again... > > > > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > > > > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > > > > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how > > > those help > > > > me at each individual track. > > > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in > > > GENERAL > > > > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > > > > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE

the

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > > fast > > > > rebound or lower it? > > > > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > > > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Gennelmen, Two points: 1. Lap times are a poor way to tell if the change (singular; never make more than one at once) you just wrought is having the desired effect. Yes, you may be faster just because you're more familiar with the track...or you just got lucky (more of a factor if you're not metronomically consistent). As Doug Arnao suggested a long time ago, tire temps are your best setup clue. Just remember that the inside temps should be a degree or two higher than the outside temps so you know you're taking advantage of camber thrust, and on fast courses (Reims, ovals), the center-tread temp should be one or two degrees higher still to take advantage of an overinflated tire's lower rolling resistance (e.g., RF: 220\222\218). 2. You know you've got the right setup when the car is easy to drive (providing you've complied w. 1., above). I used to think that there were fast setups and then there were easy setups (a la NASCAR), but if you're uncomfortable with a setup, it's unlikely you'll be able to extend yourself into the uncharted territory neccessary to set new personal bests. Conversely, with a setup you find easy to drive at 7 or 8 tenths, it will almost always also be easy to drive at 9 and 10 tenths, which is where you need to be to get to the next level (or at least into The Zone). Ultimately, you may be one of those poor souls who can't tell the difference between a good setup and a bad one, in which case don't quit your day job. I'm not a terribly good driver, but I can tell if a setup is right for me by the time I'm half out of the pits. Well, certainly after a couple of turns (and well before the end of the first lap--hint: GPL setups should always oversteer before the tires warm up...and probably after, too). --Steve "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d4017f0$0$821$[email hidden]... > I am very similar to Dave in the way that I setup my cars. > I get to about the same point as Dave and then It gets very hard to > work out if the adjustments that I make are in fact improving my LapTimes, > or if it is just a psychological thing. My lap times ARE getting slightly > better, but that could also be achieved by the extra practice that I am > putting in due to the constant Test Driving. > I usually go back to the Setup that is at the point before I startedplaying > with the shocks etc. I then find that my lap times don't suffer by doingso. > Would it be possible for someone to write a program that could extract lap > data and create an appropriate car setup to suit the driving style? > I know that this might take the fun out of it for you Setup Junkies, butit > would be great for guys like Dave and I that get lost in the Setup JunkYard

Quoted text (18 lines)

> :-). > After all, the real F1 teams get computer help with their car setups. > What do you guys think of this idea? > > Darf > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > > Goy, > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy > guide > > I > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I

might

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave > Henrie, > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with > one > > of > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of

settings

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from > > track to track. > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > >

I have that book. I think. Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how the various cars behave ? -Larry "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > Goy, > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategyguide > I > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, DaveHenrie, > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come withone

Quoted text (14 lines)

> of > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of settings > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from > track to track. > dave henrie > > > > > >

Thanks :) With that bit of concept out of the way, I can probably make more sense out of it :) The 'quick-help' popups in NR2002 for shocks always seemed 'backwards' to me. I'll go back and re-apply this knowledge and see if they make more sense. Thanks! -Larry "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:m2W%8.89$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Larry, > > Lower = softer. Hence, in rebound (or "droop," as the Brits picturesquely > call it) , yes, a higher number means the shock expands more slowly. > > In jounce, yes, a higher number means the shock compresses more slowly. > > Presumably, you're talking abt. NASCAR Racing. Altho the principles

remain > the same, I find the suspension settings far more mysterious...and stuff > that has worked for me since IndyCar Racing on road circuits doesn't have > the desired effect in N2002 (or N3 or even N2). I use the 'store-bought' > settings that ship with the game, with some minor adjustments in thegearing

Quoted text (15 lines)

> and--to get the temps more even--a few clicks of the TPs and cambers. > > --Steve > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:EVS%8.133019$%%[email hidden]... > > Quick Question... > > > > Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate. > Right? > > > > Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a slower > > rate. Right? > > > > I never could get this straight. Shocks confuse the hell out of me,

even > > after reading Rodney's setup guide. > > > > I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then usethese > in > > my setups. Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I haveno

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > clue how to handle. > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:S3I%8.196768$[email hidden]... > > > Haqsau, > > > > > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same > > thing > > > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real

or

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, > which > > > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, > > > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at > > > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to > reconnect > > > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops > back > > > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, > rear-end > > > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the > > pavement. > > > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can > > > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. > > > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly

as > > hell > > > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire > > > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combinedwith > > > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments onthe

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > GPL > > > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > > > > > > Private lessons available for a fee. > > > > > > --Steve > > > > > > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:ahn3ru$u5132$[email hidden]... > > > > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or

lower

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > > the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 > C, > > > > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only > average > > > > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by > > > > raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is > the > > > > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in

bump > > > > damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if theyare > > > > too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension > compliance - > > > > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the averagetemps > > > > across the tire. > > > > > > > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the > > > > tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, likehow > > > > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on > the > > > > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessivesuspension > > > > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives youthe > > > > old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it > > > > causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and > especially > > > > ARB stiffness can help this. > > > > > > > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with carsthat

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > > > use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles > onto > > > > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more > > > > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance > than > > > > you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really > > > > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your > > > > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the > > > > track. > > > > > > > > Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis > is > > > > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady > > > > braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle > application > > > > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at > corner > > > > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those > situations, > > > > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer > rebound > > > > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal

force > on > > > > the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fixtransient > > > > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky becauseany > > > > change affects all those situations, and because getting too farapart > > > > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change > > > > dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, > which > > > > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly > > > > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the samedamping > > > > rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are onlyslightly

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > > > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly > > > > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering > control > > > > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > > > > > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually > follow > > > > this > > > > > method. > > > > > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > > > > > 2. adjust gearing > > > > > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to

get

Quoted text (13 lines)

> a > > > > nice > > > > > inside to outside progression. > > > > > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a > little > > > > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > > > > > 5. check air pressures again... > > > > > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > > > > > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > > > > > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how > > > > those help > > > > > me at each individual track. > > > > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but

in

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > > > GENERAL > > > > > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > > > > > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE > the > > > > fast > > > > > rebound or lower it? > > > > > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > > > > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > > > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Yikes! Good point about the reaction time difference. Back to the drawing board.... Oh, and good luck sorting this all out Dave! ;o) "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ndR%8.224225$[email hidden]... > Haqsau, > > "...the dampers only affect brake dive when you first hit thebrakes...." > > Even trickier than that. In re shock 'stagger', if you have the front > jounce settings soft and the rear rebound settings stiff, the rear endwill > still be reacting after the front has settled (as the rear hyd. fluidis > still squirting thru those tiny orifices). Still trickier: if youhave the > right & left shock values staggered, applying the brakes in a straightline > can make the car turn (pitch+roll=yaw). And that doesn't even beginto > account for what happens to the car's attitude depending on howviolently > the suspension gets into the rubbers. (Nor, in the RW, does it coverthe > difference between lo-Hz suspension flex v. hi-Hz movement, which GPL > doesn't model.) > > As we both agree: tricky stuff. > > --Steve

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BiW%8.101$[email hidden]... > Gennelmen, > > Two points: > > 1. Lap times are a poor way to tell if the change (singular; never makemore > than one at once) you just wrought is having the desired effect. Yes, you > may be faster just because you're more familiar with the track...or youjust > got lucky (more of a factor if you're not metronomically consistent). As > Doug Arnao suggested a long time ago, tire temps are your best setup clue. > Just remember that the inside temps should be a degree or two higher than > the outside temps so you know you're taking advantage of camber thrust,and > on fast courses (Reims, ovals), the center-tread temp should be one or two > degrees higher still to take advantage of an overinflated tire's lower > rolling resistance (e.g., RF: 220\222\218). Rats/// !! I HAD just such a tire temp and thought I should get the middle one down a notch...grrrr back to the drawing board. > > 2. You know you've got the right setup when the car is easy to drive > (providing you've complied w. 1., above). I used to think that there were > fast setups and then there were easy setups (a la NASCAR), but if you're > uncomfortable with a setup, it's unlikely you'll be able to extendyourself > into the uncharted territory neccessary to set new personal bests. > Conversely, with a setup you find easy to drive at 7 or 8 tenths, it will > almost always also be easy to drive at 9 and 10 tenths, which is where you > need to be to get to the next level (or at least into The Zone). > > Ultimately, you may be one of those poor souls who can't tell thedifference > between a good setup and a bad one, in which case don't quit your day job. > I'm not a terribly good driver, but I can tell if a setup is right for meby > the time I'm half out of the pits. Well, certainly after a couple ofturns > (and well before the end of the first lap--hint: GPL setups should always > oversteer before the tires warm up...and probably after, too). > > --Steve That is indeed a big problem of mine. That is why I try to find one trick, like opening up the differential, and then use it everywhere. I do know when I load up a Hutuu settup that I will be lucky to exit the pits still pointing in the proper direction, so I do know a really good setup when I see one,,(by that I mean I'm really bad with it...) dave henrie > > >

Yrral, As I say, NASCAR suspensions are as mysterious to me as the alien landing strip at Nazca. Even when I apply NASCAR techniques to GPL I always also try the polar opposite (if I *know* I'm supposed to stiffen the RR, I also try stiffening the LR), just to make sure I'm not having a dyslexic "moment." --Evets "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hGW%8.133312$%%[email hidden]... > Thanks :) > > With that bit of concept out of the way, I can probably make more senseout

Quoted text (15 lines)

> of it :) > > The 'quick-help' popups in NR2002 for shocks always seemed 'backwards' to > me. I'll go back and re-apply this knowledge and see if they make more > sense. > > Thanks! > > -Larry > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:m2W%8.89$[email hidden]... > > Larry, > > > > Lower = softer. Hence, in rebound (or "droop," as the Brits

picturesquely

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > call it) , yes, a higher number means the shock expands more slowly. > > > > In jounce, yes, a higher number means the shock compresses more slowly. > > > > Presumably, you're talking abt. NASCAR Racing. Altho the principles > remain > > the same, I find the suspension settings far more mysterious...and stuff > > that has worked for me since IndyCar Racing on road circuits doesn't

have > > the desired effect in N2002 (or N3 or even N2). I use the'store-bought'

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > settings that ship with the game, with some minor adjustments in the > gearing > > and--to get the temps more even--a few clicks of the TPs and cambers. > > > > --Steve > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:EVS%8.133019$%%[email hidden]... > > > Quick Question... > > > > > > Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate. > > Right? > > > > > > Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a

slower

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > > rate. Right? > > > > > > I never could get this straight. Shocks confuse the hell out of me, > even > > > after reading Rodney's setup guide. > > > > > > I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then use > these > > in > > > my setups. Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I have > no > > > clue how to handle. > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:S3I%8.196768$[email hidden]... > > > > Haqsau, > > > > > > > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the

same > > > thing > > > > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track,real > or > > > > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, > > which > > > > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, > > > > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; notaero...at > > > > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to > > reconnect > > > > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tiredrops

Quoted text (28 lines)

> > back > > > > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, > > rear-end > > > > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the > > > pavement. > > > > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can > > > > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. > > > > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly > as > > > hell > > > > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire > > > > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined > with > > > > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on > the > > > GPL > > > > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > > > > > > > > Private lessons available for a fee. > > > > > > > > --Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:ahn3ru$u5132$[email hidden]... > > > > > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or > lower > > > > > the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is

85 > > C, > > > > > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only > > average > > > > > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better gripby > > > > > raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rateis

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > the > > > > > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in > bump > > > > > damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they > are > > > > > too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension > > compliance - > > > > > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average > temps > > > > > across the tire. > > > > > > > > > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up

the > > > > > tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like > how > > > > > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately geton > > the > > > > > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive > suspension > > > > > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you > the > > > > > old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstopsit

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > > > causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and > > especially > > > > > ARB stiffness can help this. > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars > that > > > > > use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles > > onto > > > > > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more > > > > > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance > > than > > > > > you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is

really > > > > > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your > > > > > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go aroundthe > > > > > track. > > > > > > > > > > Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when thechassis > > is > > > > > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration,steady

Quoted text (26 lines)

> > > > > braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle > > application > > > > > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at > > corner > > > > > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those > > situations, > > > > > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer > > rebound > > > > > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal > force > > on > > > > > the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix > transient > > > > > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because > any > > > > > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far > apart > > > > > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change > > > > > dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, > > which > > > > > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly > > > > > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same > damping > > > > > rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only > slightly > > > > > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being

slightly

Quoted text (25 lines)

> > > > > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering > > control > > > > > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > > > > > > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually > > follow > > > > > this > > > > > > method. > > > > > > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > > > > > > 2. adjust gearing > > > > > > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to > get > > a > > > > > nice > > > > > > inside to outside progression. > > > > > > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a > > little > > > > > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > > > > > > 5. check air pressures again... > > > > > > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > > > > > > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > > > > > > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue

how > > > > > those help > > > > > > me at each individual track. > > > > > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001but > in > > > > > GENERAL > > > > > > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > > > > > > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do IRAISE

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > the > > > > > fast > > > > > > rebound or lower it? > > > > > > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > > > > > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > > > > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Dave, Two more points: 1. Aliens don't need good setups; indeed, I find most of theirs undriveable. Middling drivers like thee & me *need* great setups not to get on the pole but merely to feel comfortable and stay on the road. 2. Similar tricks will work on similar tracks (memorize that) and v.v. That is, the tall ride heights neccessary for the Ring are counter-productive at Castle Combe. The anti-understeer setups neccessary at Brands are immaterial at Bremgarten. The open diffs used at Indy are too open for Bristol. The extreme steering lock needed at Monaco might be combined with completely different spring rates at Rouen. Etc. OTOH, Sebring and Cleveland ought to take similar setups. Ditto Reims and Spa. Ditto Elkhart and the Glen. Etc. Again, a really fantastic driver really doesn't need to change much from track to track (Clark & Hill could only change the top 2 gears in their Lotus 49s in '67, and rarely fiddled with springs, shox or bumpers), but average drivers like thee & me need all the help we can get. Tailoring our setups to the nuances of each track is one way to keep the aliens in sight. --Steve "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QJ109.666993$cQ3.105055@sccrnsc01...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BiW%8.101$[email hidden]... > > Gennelmen, > > > > Two points: > > > > 1. Lap times are a poor way to tell if the change (singular; never make > more > > than one at once) you just wrought is having the desired effect. Yes,

you > > may be faster just because you're more familiar with the track...or you > just > > got lucky (more of a factor if you're not metronomically consistent).As > > Doug Arnao suggested a long time ago, tire temps are your best setupclue. > > Just remember that the inside temps should be a degree or two higherthan > > the outside temps so you know you're taking advantage of camber thrust, > and > > on fast courses (Reims, ovals), the center-tread temp should be one ortwo

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > degrees higher still to take advantage of an overinflated tire's lower > > rolling resistance (e.g., RF: 220\222\218). > > Rats/// !! I HAD just such a tire temp and thought I should get the > middle one down a notch...grrrr back to the drawing board. > > > > 2. You know you've got the right setup when the car is easy to drive > > (providing you've complied w. 1., above). I used to think that there

were > > fast setups and then there were easy setups (a la NASCAR), but if you're > > uncomfortable with a setup, it's unlikely you'll be able to extend > yourself > > into the uncharted territory neccessary to set new personal bests. > > Conversely, with a setup you find easy to drive at 7 or 8 tenths, itwill > > almost always also be easy to drive at 9 and 10 tenths, which is whereyou > > need to be to get to the next level (or at least into The Zone). > > > > Ultimately, you may be one of those poor souls who can't tell the > difference > > between a good setup and a bad one, in which case don't quit your dayjob. > > I'm not a terribly good driver, but I can tell if a setup is right forme > by > > the time I'm half out of the pits. Well, certainly after a couple of > turns > > (and well before the end of the first lap--hint: GPL setups shouldalways

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > oversteer before the tires warm up...and probably after, too). > > > > --Steve > > That is indeed a big problem of mine. That is why I try to find one > trick, like opening up the differential, and then use it everywhere. > I do know when I load up a Hutuu settup that I will be lucky to exit the > pits still pointing in the proper direction, so I do know a really good > setup when I see one,,(by that I mean I'm really bad with it...) > dave henrie > > > > > > > >

Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy." "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%CW%8.133295$%%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (18 lines)

> I have that book. I think. > > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how the > various cars behave ? > > -Larry > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > > Goy, > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy > guide > > I > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I

might

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave > Henrie, > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with > one > > of > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of

settings

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from > > track to track. > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Steve Smith" wrote... > Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy." I still say the best tip in that book is the one about the socks. <g> Jan. =---

OK ...you've got our interest :-) ....now what was the tip about the socks?

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > I still say the best tip in that book is the one about the socks. <g> > > Jan. > =--- > >

LOL! Cool :) There was one car you were particularly fond of, overall. Wasn't it the Brabham ? It seemed to have 'balance' overall compared to the rest. -Larry "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FWc09.8004$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy." > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%CW%8.133295$%%[email hidden]... > > I have that book. I think. > > > > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how

the

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > various cars behave ? > > > > -Larry > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > > > Goy, > > > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy > > guide > > > I > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I > might > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave > > Henrie, > > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come

with > > one > > > of > > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > > > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chapin > > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of > settings > > > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I > > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer themfrom

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > track to track. > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Good Job, btw! -Larry "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FWc09.8004$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy." > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%CW%8.133295$%%[email hidden]... > > I have that book. I think. > > > > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how

the

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > various cars behave ? > > > > -Larry > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > > > Goy, > > > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy > > guide > > > I > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I > might > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave > > Henrie, > > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come

with > > one > > > of > > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > > > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chapin > > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of > settings > > > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I > > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer themfrom

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > track to track. > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Darf" wrote... > OK ...you've got our interest :-) > ....now what was the tip about the socks? Steve recommended rag wool socks by LL Bean for simracing, which are very comfortable indeed. Jan. =---

Steve Smith wrote: > > Goy, > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy guide I > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to check out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars being my other passion....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

> Goy, > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy guide I > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to check out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars being my other passion....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Steve Smith wrote: > > Again, a really fantastic driver really doesn't need to change much from > track to track (Clark & Hill could only change the top 2 gears in their > Lotus 49s in '67, and rarely fiddled with springs, shox or bumpers), but > average drivers like thee & me need all the help we can get. Tailoring our > setups to the nuances of each track is one way to keep the aliens in sight. Indeed, there was interview with one of Clark's mechanics in an English magazine a couple of years ago, might have been "Car", and he claimed that except for the gearing they only changed the setup twice on Clark's car during the whole 67 season, both of which he disliked immensely and asked them to change it back Personally I believe people are too hung up on setups and spend too much time chasing the "perfect" setup, time that would be much better spent trying to get the the most out of a decent "baseline" setup, which if put to good use would take you to within a second or two of a very good time at that particular track anyway Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

> Again, a really fantastic driver really doesn't need to change much from > track to track (Clark & Hill could only change the top 2 gears in their > Lotus 49s in '67, and rarely fiddled with springs, shox or bumpers), but > average drivers like thee & me need all the help we can get. Tailoring our > setups to the nuances of each track is one way to keep the aliens in sight. Indeed, there was interview with one of Clark's mechanics in an English magazine a couple of years ago, might have been "Car", and he claimed that except for the gearing they only changed the setup twice on Clark's car during the whole 67 season, both of which he disliked immensely and asked them to change it back Personally I believe people are too hung up on setups and spend too much time chasing the "perfect" setup, time that would be much better spent trying to get the the most out of a decent "baseline" setup, which if put to good use would take you to within a second or two of a very good time at that particular track anyway Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Yes...although I do find my setups "evolve" as my driving style evolves. As my car control improves, my setups change, mostly from neutral to loose. But the core values of most of my setups (even for new tracks, which are almost always like some previous tracks; Shutoko is an exception) have remained fairly stable for the last couple of years. (What other sim could make that statement?) "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message news:1Vj09.3215$[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > Again, a really fantastic driver really doesn't need to change much from > > track to track (Clark & Hill could only change the top 2 gears in their > > Lotus 49s in '67, and rarely fiddled with springs, shox or bumpers), but > > average drivers like thee & me need all the help we can get. Tailoringour > > setups to the nuances of each track is one way to keep the aliens insight.

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > Indeed, there was interview with one of Clark's mechanics in an English > magazine a couple of years ago, might have been "Car", and he claimed > that except for the gearing they only changed the setup twice on Clark's > car during the whole 67 season, both of which he disliked immensely and > asked them to change it back > > Personally I believe people are too hung up on setups and spend too much > time chasing the "perfect" setup, time that would be much better spent > trying to get the the most out of a decent "baseline" setup, which if > put to good use would take you to within a second or two of a very good > time at that particular track anyway > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

I knew that would help. I didn't think of it until the manuscript was on its way to the printer. I moved heaven & earth to get it in there. It was worth it. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Dad09.29992$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> "Steve Smith" wrote... > > Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy." > > I still say the best tip in that book is the one about the socks. <g> > > Jan. > =--- > >

No, it was the Ferrari...but they cut out all mention of Ferrari in the text! "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0Pe09.138590$%%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (29 lines)

> LOL! Cool :) > > There was one car you were particularly fond of, overall. Wasn't it the > Brabham ? It seemed to have 'balance' overall compared to the rest. > > -Larry > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FWc09.8004$[email hidden]... > > Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy." > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%CW%8.133295$%%[email hidden]... > > > I have that book. I think. > > > > > > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how > the > > > various cars behave ? > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > > > > Goy, > > > > > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the

strategy

Quoted text (20 lines)

> > > guide > > > > I > > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I > > might > > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave > > > Henrie, > > > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come > with > > > one > > > > of > > > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > > > > > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap > in > > > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > > > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of > > settings > > > > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.

I

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them > from > > > > track to track. > > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Thx! "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jPe09.138593$%%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (26 lines)

> Good Job, btw! > > -Larry > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FWc09.8004$[email hidden]... > > Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy." > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%CW%8.133295$%%[email hidden]... > > > I have that book. I think. > > > > > > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how > the > > > various cars behave ? > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:NjT%8.164722$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:euR%8.224231$[email hidden]... > > > > > Goy, > > > > > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the

strategy

Quoted text (20 lines)

> > > guide > > > > I > > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I > > might > > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave > > > Henrie, > > > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come > with > > > one > > > > of > > > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift." > > > > > > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap > in > > > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name) > > > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of > > settings > > > > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.

I

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them > from > > > > track to track. > > > > dave henrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver, Road & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I also wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the banking @ Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials" in the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on "The Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again), although I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the Cannonball Run coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message news:mHj09.3197$[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > Goy, > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategyguide I

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to check > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars > being my other passion....:-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DPx09.16563$[email hidden]... > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car &Driver, Road > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but Ialso > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the banking @ > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials"in > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on"The > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again),although > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of theCannonball Run > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). > Yeah, I remember those days... Brock Yates, David E. Davis (Jr?), Henry Manney III, Steve Smith (wait a sec... that's you!), et al. I was a huge fan of both mags (can't remember how many times I was caught reading one in class (stuffed between the pages of a text book) in the mid to late 60's. (yeah, I'm that old) My 1st new car was a Fiat X1/9, based on the recommendations of C&D and R&T. (A mistake, but we won't go there). Went FF racing in the early 70's because of an article about a fellow who went to Europe & raced F3 on a shoestring (as I recall, he had a VW flatbed w/ ramps & slept under the tarped car when he couldn't mooch a place to stay). Today, the closest I get to racing is sitting at my desk... Oh, well. BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Run still lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every other bridge? ;o) Brian

Quoted text (7 lines)

> "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message > news:mHj09.3197$[email hidden]... > > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > > > Goy, > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the

strategy > guide I > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case Imight > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want tocheck > > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material,preferably

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars > > being my other passion....:-) > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > --Groucho Marx-- > > >

B, On the very first Cannonball (I am the only living American to have competed in both the first Cannonball and the first One Lap of America; a distinction Bruce McCall sez is akin to boasting you're "The World's Tallest Midget"), I set the fastest average speed of any stint on the route...thru Ohio! I don't know if I was stupid-brave or if the cops were all asleep. Are you sure your role model wasn't Jay Chamberlain, an ex-drag racer who bought one of the Team Lotus 49s (a '67 model he updated to B specs), and took to Europe for a partial F1 season (in '69, I think), towing it around behind a VW Microbus? P.S. He still has the car and drives it at vintage events. It's worth about 1,000 times what he paid for it. Brock is still my friend (and neighbor) and David E. is still by boss (altho he's now at Motor Trend). --Steve "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9gy09.6854$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (70 lines)

> > Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:DPx09.16563$[email hidden]... > > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & > Driver, Road > > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I > also > > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the banking @ > > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials" > in > > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on > "The > > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again), > although > > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the > Cannonball Run > > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). > > > > Yeah, I remember those days... Brock Yates, David E. Davis (Jr?), Henry > Manney III, Steve Smith (wait a sec... that's you!), et al. I was a > huge fan of both mags (can't remember how many times I was caught > reading one in class (stuffed between the pages of a text book) in the > mid to late 60's. (yeah, I'm that old) My 1st new car was a Fiat X1/9, > based on the recommendations of C&D and R&T. (A mistake, but we won't go > there). Went FF racing in the early 70's because of an article about a > fellow who went to Europe & raced F3 on a shoestring (as I recall, he > had a VW flatbed w/ ramps & slept under the tarped car when he couldn't > mooch a place to stay). Today, the closest I get to racing is sitting > at my desk... Oh, well. > > BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Run still > lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every other bridge? > ;o) > > Brian > > > "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message > > news:mHj09.3197$[email hidden]... > > > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > Goy, > > > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the > strategy > > guide I > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I > might > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to > check > > > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, > preferably > > > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars > > > being my other passion....:-) > > > > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > > (uncle) Goy > > > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > > --Groucho Marx-- > > > > > > > >

Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Zhz09.19369$[email hidden]... > B, > > On the very first Cannonball (I am the only living American to havecompeted > in both the first Cannonball and the first One Lap of America; adistinction > Bruce McCall sez is akin to boasting you're "The World's TallestMidget"), I > set the fastest average speed of any stint on the route...thru Ohio!I > don't know if I was stupid-brave or if the cops were all asleep. > > Are you sure your role model wasn't Jay Chamberlain, an ex-drag racerwho > bought one of the Team Lotus 49s (a '67 model he updated to B specs),and > took to Europe for a partial F1 season (in '69, I think), towing itaround > behind a VW Microbus? P.S. He still has the car and drives it atvintage > events. It's worth about 1,000 times what he paid for it. > > Brock is still my friend (and neighbor) and David E. is still by boss(altho > he's now at Motor Trend). > > --Steve > Steve, I remember (vaguely) the stories about Jay Chamberlain, but the story I was referring to was about a young man who decided to tour Europe cheaply, like many young people of that era, the only difference being that he raced F3 while doing it. There was a cost breakdown in the article, & tips on where to stay cheaply, or for free, & ways to survive on next to nothing. He had a VW Micro, but the pick-up truck version, & carried the race car on ramps mounted to the sides (I can still see the picture in my mind). I don't remember how his story ended, but at the time it seemed like an irresistible adventure to a young man who dreamed of racing. My racing career ended abruptly with the words "I do" in 1976. Another mistake, & we won't go there either. ;o/ Thanks for rekindling the memories, Brian

Quoted text (8 lines)

> "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9gy09.6854$[email hidden]... > > > > Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:DPx09.16563$[email hidden]... > > > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & > > Driver, Road > > > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.),

but I > > also > > > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on thebanking @ > > > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1commercials" > > in > > > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned medown on > > "The > > > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired(again),

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > although > > > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the > > Cannonball Run > > > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). > > > > > > > Yeah, I remember those days... Brock Yates, David E. Davis (Jr?),

Henry > > Manney III, Steve Smith (wait a sec... that's you!), et al. I was a > > huge fan of both mags (can't remember how many times I was caught > > reading one in class (stuffed between the pages of a text book) inthe > > mid to late 60's. (yeah, I'm that old) My 1st new car was a FiatX1/9, > > based on the recommendations of C&D and R&T. (A mistake, but wewon't go > > there). Went FF racing in the early 70's because of an articleabout a > > fellow who went to Europe & raced F3 on a shoestring (as I recall,he > > had a VW flatbed w/ ramps & slept under the tarped car when hecouldn't > > mooch a place to stay). Today, the closest I get to racing issitting > > at my desk... Oh, well. > > > > BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Runstill > > lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every otherbridge? > > ;o) > > > > Brian > > <snip>

B, Actually, I erred: Chamberlain likewise had the flatbed 'pickup' model of the Microbus and backed the Lotus up the ramps so that, when fully docked, the front wheels hung way out behind the VW's engine...and abt. 5 ft. in the air. The handling on the Autobahn prolly woulda been hairraising but for the fact that the rig's top speed couldn't have been more than 67 mph. Even so.... --Steve "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JdB09.10011$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (109 lines)

> Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Zhz09.19369$[email hidden]... > > B, > > > > On the very first Cannonball (I am the only living American to have > competed > > in both the first Cannonball and the first One Lap of America; a > distinction > > Bruce McCall sez is akin to boasting you're "The World's Tallest > Midget"), I > > set the fastest average speed of any stint on the route...thru Ohio! > I > > don't know if I was stupid-brave or if the cops were all asleep. > > > > Are you sure your role model wasn't Jay Chamberlain, an ex-drag racer > who > > bought one of the Team Lotus 49s (a '67 model he updated to B specs), > and > > took to Europe for a partial F1 season (in '69, I think), towing it > around > > behind a VW Microbus? P.S. He still has the car and drives it at > vintage > > events. It's worth about 1,000 times what he paid for it. > > > > Brock is still my friend (and neighbor) and David E. is still by boss > (altho > > he's now at Motor Trend). > > > > --Steve > > > > Steve, > > I remember (vaguely) the stories about Jay Chamberlain, but the story I > was referring to was about a young man who decided to tour Europe > cheaply, like many young people of that era, the only difference being > that he raced F3 while doing it. There was a cost breakdown in the > article, & tips on where to stay cheaply, or for free, & ways to survive > on next to nothing. He had a VW Micro, but the pick-up truck version, & > carried the race car on ramps mounted to the sides (I can still see the > picture in my mind). I don't remember how his story ended, but at the > time it seemed like an irresistible adventure to a young man who dreamed > of racing. > > My racing career ended abruptly with the words "I do" in 1976. > Another mistake, & we won't go there either. ;o/ > > Thanks for rekindling the memories, > > Brian > > > "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9gy09.6854$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:DPx09.16563$[email hidden]... > > > > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & > > > Driver, Road > > > > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), > but I > > > also > > > > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the > banking @ > > > > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 > commercials" > > > in > > > > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me > down on > > > "The > > > > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired > (again), > > > although > > > > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the > > > Cannonball Run > > > > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, I remember those days... Brock Yates, David E. Davis (Jr?), > Henry > > > Manney III, Steve Smith (wait a sec... that's you!), et al. I was a > > > huge fan of both mags (can't remember how many times I was caught > > > reading one in class (stuffed between the pages of a text book) in > the > > > mid to late 60's. (yeah, I'm that old) My 1st new car was a Fiat > X1/9, > > > based on the recommendations of C&D and R&T. (A mistake, but we > won't go > > > there). Went FF racing in the early 70's because of an article > about a > > > fellow who went to Europe & raced F3 on a shoestring (as I recall, > he > > > had a VW flatbed w/ ramps & slept under the tarped car when he > couldn't > > > mooch a place to stay). Today, the closest I get to racing is > sitting > > > at my desk... Oh, well. > > > > > > BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Run > still > > > lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every other > bridge? > > > ;o) > > > > > > Brian > > > > > <snip> > >

We got ourselves a genuine famous person in here :) -Larry "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DPx09.16563$[email hidden]... > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver,Road > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I also > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the banking @ > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials" in > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on"The > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again),although > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the CannonballRun

Quoted text (11 lines)

> coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). > > "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message > news:mHj09.3197$[email hidden]... > > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > > > Goy, > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy > guide I > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I

might

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to check > > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably > > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars > > being my other passion....:-) > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > --Groucho Marx-- > >

*Formerly* famous. ATM, I'm just another girl on the IRT. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01D09.148989$%%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> We got ourselves a genuine famous person in here :) > > -Larry > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:DPx09.16563$[email hidden]... > > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver, > Road > > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I

also > > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the banking @ > > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials"in

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on > "The > > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again), > although > > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the Cannonball > Run > > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). > > > > "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message > > news:mHj09.3197$[email hidden]... > > > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > Goy, > > > > > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy > > guide I > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I > might > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o) > > > > > > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to

check

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably > > > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars > > > being my other passion....:-) > > > > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > > (uncle) Goy > > > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > > --Groucho Marx-- > > > > > >

In article <euR%8.224231$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>It's not a linear progression. You keep circling the same parameters. As >you get dialed in, your exit speed from any given corner increases, raising >your Vmax on the following straight, neccessitating a longer gear. As you >get more comfortable with a track and a setup that's beginning to work for >you, you get more camber gain, so you have to keep notching the negative >camber back. As you go faster, you put more heat in the tires, which can >demand spring, shock, and/or TP changes. Etc.

...As my eyes start to glaze over... How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to do calculus for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it's only gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same result - worse. I don't get it. :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to do calculus > for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it's only > gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same > result - worse. I don't get it. :-( Well, I started racing off-road R/C in 1990. By 1996 I was interested enough to take a degree in automotive engineering - but I knew most of the practical stuff already by that stage! More recently (like the last few years), I've been reading Carroll Smith's excellent "X to Win" books, of which at least "Drive to Win" and "Tune to Win" have some very useful stuff about setup. HTH, Jonny

EldredP wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > ...As my eyes start to glaze over... > > How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to do calculus > for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it's only > gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same > result - worse. I don't get it. :-(

Well, that's on of the things I was talking about when I said people were chasing setups too much, if you don't have a decent handle on the setup you're using *and* are unfamiliar with setup work, how the hell can you expect to improve upon it ? What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found *your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the setup keeping you from going faster Is it too unstable under braking, does it have to much understeer/oversteer, is it too responsive/not responsive enough ? And then you can start making some changes, if you feel the setup isn't responsive enough, try stiffening all the springs an equal amount (%), that way the overall balance of the car hasn't changed, but increase the value a lot, say 100% all around to make you feel what this particular change does and how it translates in "feel" Then try some laps, at least 5-10, and make sure you do this at a track you can drive without thinking much about it, but still has variety, Monza isn't a good place to start, but Sears or Silverstone would be good I guess, and try to sense if this was the kind of change you were looking for, even if this was probably going too far, but you need to make big changes to to let the setup change filter through all the "variables" which you have while driving Don't tinker about with it, make a HUGE change and try to sense if this is what you're looking for, just remember that when you change one setting, it also affect other things, making the car more responsive by stiffening the springs for instance, will also make it seem like it's oversteeing more, but it's not really, it's just responding faster to your inputs so it "feels" like it's oversteering But if you can't drive a certain track/setup consistently, it's almost hopeless to evaluate if the changes you do have made a difference, not only in lap times, but more importantly in the "feel" of the car as Steve pointed out I did a fair amount of setup chasing myself until my teammate in Team Mirage handed me a couple of his setups, his baseline setup and his "endurance" setup for Watkins Glen, this was back in N2 of course, and running nothing but his baseline setup I did several hundred laps at WG without changing anything but the gearing, ran enough laps so that I could run several laps in succession within a couple of tenths of each other, at which point I knew that whatever change I made to the setup it would be the change that made it feel different and not some erratic driving on my part At which point I loaded up his other setup and I was slower with this than with the baseline setup at first as it had a different feel to it, but unlike the baseline setup it had dead even tire wear front to rear and really came in after about 10 laps or so, I used a variation of that setup right up until the end of the N3 era in the TPTCC last spring and I also used the same baseline setup when first going out on a new track, and at most tracks this setup would get me within 1 or 2 seconds of a good lap with my eventual setup And it was no trick setup either, now, I know things have moved on a bit since the N2/3 days with 3D physics and all, but in my opinion, the basic rules still apply, until you you've "mastered" the car itself, you can't do any useful work on the setups as the feedback you get are diluted by your own irregular driving Setups is not a black art, but it takes a lot of time and patience, and with these more sophisticated physics engines, it also takes some basic "real world" knowledge, my fav book is "Performance handling" (how to make your car handle, techniques for the 1990's) by Don Alexander, I believe it's a pt of the HP Books series, it's the one I keep going back to whenever I'm stuck in a rut, such as sorting out my turn in oversteer problem in N2002, "increase the rebound of the rear shocks", you can't guess your way to something like that, you either know it or need to look it up All IMHO of course :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

> ...As my eyes start to glaze over... > How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to do calculus > for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it's only > gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same > result - worse. I don't get it. :-( Well, that's on of the things I was talking about when I said people were chasing setups too much, if you don't have a decent handle on the setup you're using *and* are unfamiliar with setup work, how the hell can you expect to improve upon it ? What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found *your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the setup keeping you from going faster Is it too unstable under braking, does it have to much understeer/oversteer, is it too responsive/not responsive enough ? And then you can start making some changes, if you feel the setup isn't responsive enough, try stiffening all the springs an equal amount (%), that way the overall balance of the car hasn't changed, but increase the value a lot, say 100% all around to make you feel what this particular change does and how it translates in "feel" Then try some laps, at least 5-10, and make sure you do this at a track you can drive without thinking much about it, but still has variety, Monza isn't a good place to start, but Sears or Silverstone would be good I guess, and try to sense if this was the kind of change you were looking for, even if this was probably going too far, but you need to make big changes to to let the setup change filter through all the "variables" which you have while driving Don't tinker about with it, make a HUGE change and try to sense if this is what you're looking for, just remember that when you change one setting, it also affect other things, making the car more responsive by stiffening the springs for instance, will also make it seem like it's oversteeing more, but it's not really, it's just responding faster to your inputs so it "feels" like it's oversteering But if you can't drive a certain track/setup consistently, it's almost hopeless to evaluate if the changes you do have made a difference, not only in lap times, but more importantly in the "feel" of the car as Steve pointed out I did a fair amount of setup chasing myself until my teammate in Team Mirage handed me a couple of his setups, his baseline setup and his "endurance" setup for Watkins Glen, this was back in N2 of course, and running nothing but his baseline setup I did several hundred laps at WG without changing anything but the gearing, ran enough laps so that I could run several laps in succession within a couple of tenths of each other, at which point I knew that whatever change I made to the setup it would be the change that made it feel different and not some erratic driving on my part At which point I loaded up his other setup and I was slower with this than with the baseline setup at first as it had a different feel to it, but unlike the baseline setup it had dead even tire wear front to rear and really came in after about 10 laps or so, I used a variation of that setup right up until the end of the N3 era in the TPTCC last spring and I also used the same baseline setup when first going out on a new track, and at most tracks this setup would get me within 1 or 2 seconds of a good lap with my eventual setup And it was no trick setup either, now, I know things have moved on a bit since the N2/3 days with 3D physics and all, but in my opinion, the basic rules still apply, until you you've "mastered" the car itself, you can't do any useful work on the setups as the feedback you get are diluted by your own irregular driving Setups is not a black art, but it takes a lot of time and patience, and with these more sophisticated physics engines, it also takes some basic "real world" knowledge, my fav book is "Performance handling" (how to make your car handle, techniques for the 1990's) by Don Alexander, I believe it's a pt of the HP Books series, it's the one I keep going back to whenever I'm stuck in a rut, such as sorting out my turn in oversteer problem in N2002, "increase the rebound of the rear shocks", you can't guess your way to something like that, you either know it or need to look it up All IMHO of course :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Steve Smith wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Yes...although I do find my setups "evolve" as my driving style evolves. As > my car control improves, my setups change, mostly from neutral to loose. > But the core values of most of my setups (even for new tracks, which are > almost always like some previous tracks; Shutoko is an exception) have > remained fairly stable for the last couple of years. (What other sim could > make that statement?)

Yep, my setups are very much alike too, unless the tracks themselves *demand* something special, I tend to run fairly soft setups that allows me to take the car closer to the edge without being "edgy" :-), it gives up something in responsiveness, but allows for a more relaxed driving style Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

> Yes...although I do find my setups "evolve" as my driving style evolves. As > my car control improves, my setups change, mostly from neutral to loose. > But the core values of most of my setups (even for new tracks, which are > almost always like some previous tracks; Shutoko is an exception) have > remained fairly stable for the last couple of years. (What other sim could > make that statement?) Yep, my setups are very much alike too, unless the tracks themselves *demand* something special, I tend to run fairly soft setups that allows me to take the car closer to the edge without being "edgy" :-), it gives up something in responsiveness, but allows for a more relaxed driving style Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Steve Smith wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver, Road > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I also > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the banking @ > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials" in > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on "The > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again), although > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the Cannonball Run > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).

Ah, I used to read R&T a bit, until I lost interest in American cars, that was in the early 80's just before I got my license :-) So where would one find some of your articles these day then, online or otherwise ? Don't think they carry PC Computing here, at least I can't remember seeing it Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver, Road > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I also > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials" in > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on "The > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again), although > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the Cannonball Run > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).

Ah, I used to read R&T a bit, until I lost interest in American cars, that was in the early 80's just before I got my license :-) So where would one find some of your articles these day then, online or otherwise ? Don't think they carry PC Computing here, at least I can't remember seeing it Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" > What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one > of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found > *your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the > setup keeping you from going faster The last part is easy...I suck.... But here's the rub.. For a relatively easy track like the modern Monza...I'm quite far off the pace. I sent an email to a couple of guys who are faster on the FIA GT rank to beg for a setup. I got one which I haven't tested yet...but the other guy...bascially said he used the default setup. I started with those, and after gettting some hints here and elsewhere was able to IMPROVE most of my times by making some changes. I gained maybe two seconds per track....but this sucker, (sorry) using the base setup that I had already run into the ground, had beaten my improved times by another 4 or 5 seconds...sheeesh! I worked for the last several weeks and got less than a third of what he pulled out WITHOUT changing a dang thing. There oughta be a law... dave henrie

Quoted text (75 lines)

> > Is it too unstable under braking, does it have to much > understeer/oversteer, is it too responsive/not responsive enough ? > > And then you can start making some changes, if you feel the setup isn't > responsive enough, try stiffening all the springs an equal amount (%), > that way the overall balance of the car hasn't changed, but increase the > value a lot, say 100% all around to make you feel what this particular > change does and how it translates in "feel" > > Then try some laps, at least 5-10, and make sure you do this at a track > you can drive without thinking much about it, but still has variety, > Monza isn't a good place to start, but Sears or Silverstone would be > good I guess, and try to sense if this was the kind of change you were > looking for, even if this was probably going too far, but you need to > make big changes to to let the setup change filter through all the > "variables" which you have while driving > > Don't tinker about with it, make a HUGE change and try to sense if this > is what you're looking for, just remember that when you change one > setting, it also affect other things, making the car more responsive by > stiffening the springs for instance, will also make it seem like it's > oversteeing more, but it's not really, it's just responding faster to > your inputs so it "feels" like it's oversteering > > But if you can't drive a certain track/setup consistently, it's almost > hopeless to evaluate if the changes you do have made a difference, not > only in lap times, but more importantly in the "feel" of the car as > Steve pointed out > > I did a fair amount of setup chasing myself until my teammate in Team > Mirage handed me a couple of his setups, his baseline setup and his > "endurance" setup for Watkins Glen, this was back in N2 of course, and > running nothing but his baseline setup I did several hundred laps at WG > without changing anything but the gearing, ran enough laps so that I > could run several laps in succession within a couple of tenths of each > other, at which point I knew that whatever change I made to the setup it > would be the change that made it feel different and not some erratic > driving on my part > > At which point I loaded up his other setup and I was slower with this > than with the baseline setup at first as it had a different feel to it, > but unlike the baseline setup it had dead even tire wear front to rear > and really came in after about 10 laps or so, I used a variation of that > setup right up until the end of the N3 era in the TPTCC last spring and > I also used the same baseline setup when first going out on a new track, > and at most tracks this setup would get me within 1 or 2 seconds of a > good lap with my eventual setup > > And it was no trick setup either, now, I know things have moved on a bit > since the N2/3 days with 3D physics and all, but in my opinion, the > basic rules still apply, until you you've "mastered" the car itself, you > can't do any useful work on the setups as the feedback you get are > diluted by your own irregular driving > > Setups is not a black art, but it takes a lot of time and patience, and > with these more sophisticated physics engines, it also takes some basic > "real world" knowledge, my fav book is "Performance handling" (how to > make your car handle, techniques for the > 1990's) by Don Alexander, I believe it's a pt of the HP Books series, > it's the one I keep going back to whenever I'm stuck in a rut, such as > sorting out my turn in oversteer problem in N2002, "increase the rebound > of the rear shocks", you can't guess your way to something like that, > you either know it or need to look it up > > All IMHO of course :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Steve, being a master of suspension... Is it possible to create Porpoising situation GPL? I would think it would occur readily when experimenting with really stiff suspensions but I haven't experienced it that I'm aware of (and I think I'd be aware of it). Jason On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:59:30 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (108 lines)

>Haqsau, > >The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same thing >as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or >virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, which >are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, >turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at >least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect >with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops back >down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, rear-end >lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the pavement. >The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can >determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. >Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as hell >under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire >temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined with >stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on the GPL >suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > >Private lessons available for a fee. > >--Steve > > >"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:ahn3ru$u5132$[email hidden]... >> One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower >> the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C, >> and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average >> 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by >> raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is the >> preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump >> damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are >> too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance - >> how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps >> across the tire. >> >> Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the >> tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how >> the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the >> brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension >> travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the >> old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it >> causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and especially >> ARB stiffness can help this. >> >> AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that >> use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto >> the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more >> downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than >> you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really >> useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your >> ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the >> track. >> >> Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is >> moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady >> braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application >> and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner >> entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations, >> a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound >> damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on >> the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient >> handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any >> change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart >> in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change >> dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, which >> really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly >> higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping >> rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly >> higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly >> underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control >> and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. >> >> >> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... >> > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow >> this >> > method. >> > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. >> > 2. adjust gearing >> > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a >> nice >> > inside to outside progression. >> > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little >> > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. >> > 5. check air pressures again... >> > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... >> > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... >> > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how >> those help >> > me at each individual track. >> > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in >> GENERAL >> > this should apply to most road course sims right?) >> > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE the >> fast >> > rebound or lower it? >> > And ditto for the slow rebound........ >> > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> >> > dave henrie >> > >> > >> > >> > >

Dave Henrie wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > The last part is easy...I suck.... > But here's the rub.. For a relatively easy track like the modern > Monza...I'm quite far off the pace. I sent an email to a couple of guys who > are faster on the FIA GT rank to beg for a setup. I got one which I haven't > tested yet...but the other guy...bascially said he used the default setup. > I started with those, and after gettting some hints here and elsewhere > was able to IMPROVE most of my times by making some changes. I gained maybe > two seconds per track....but this sucker, (sorry) using the base setup that > I had already run into the ground, had beaten my improved times by another 4 > or 5 seconds...sheeesh! I worked for the last several weeks and got less > than a third of what he pulled out WITHOUT changing a dang thing. There > oughta be a law... > dave henrie

So maybe the default setup really suits his preferred way of driving, it happens you know :-), and some people will run faster than you no matter what you do, it's the unwritten law of racing The last couple of seasons in the TPTCC I had really gotten the hang of things, and then Stu muttered something about making a comeback and decided to do some testing, and whipped my ass at Sears by half a second, and he hadn't done any N2/3 racing for a year or something and I had been working my ass off to get where I was And it gets worse, we both got N2002 at about the same time, after a couple of days he was 3 seconds faster around WG than I was and I couldn't for the life of me figure out where to find 1 second, let alone 2, and 3....? Now I'm faster than he was back then, of course he has probably moved the goal posts quite a bit since then, but some guys are naturally quick right off the mark and some of us takes longer to find our limits, I find mine much faster than some of friends over here that only does casual simracing, and I use a ot longer time than guys like Achim or Stu or Greger or whoever, but I've come close or even overtaken some of the fast guys at the odd track at some point, speaking of lap times not actual racing, so I know it can be done, it just takes a lot of time and effort on my part, time which I mo longer have and effort which I no longer have the desire to put into it And, some people have better eye/hand combination and faster reflexes than others, we're getting old Dave :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Quoted text (13 lines)

> The last part is easy...I suck.... > But here's the rub.. For a relatively easy track like the modern > Monza...I'm quite far off the pace. I sent an email to a couple of guys who > are faster on the FIA GT rank to beg for a setup. I got one which I haven't > tested yet...but the other guy...bascially said he used the default setup. > I started with those, and after gettting some hints here and elsewhere > was able to IMPROVE most of my times by making some changes. I gained maybe > two seconds per track....but this sucker, (sorry) using the base setup that > I had already run into the ground, had beaten my improved times by another 4 > or 5 seconds...sheeesh! I worked for the last several weeks and got less > than a third of what he pulled out WITHOUT changing a dang thing. There > oughta be a law... > dave henrie

So maybe the default setup really suits his preferred way of driving, it happens you know :-), and some people will run faster than you no matter what you do, it's the unwritten law of racing The last couple of seasons in the TPTCC I had really gotten the hang of things, and then Stu muttered something about making a comeback and decided to do some testing, and whipped my ass at Sears by half a second, and he hadn't done any N2/3 racing for a year or something and I had been working my ass off to get where I was And it gets worse, we both got N2002 at about the same time, after a couple of days he was 3 seconds faster around WG than I was and I couldn't for the life of me figure out where to find 1 second, let alone 2, and 3....? Now I'm faster than he was back then, of course he has probably moved the goal posts quite a bit since then, but some guys are naturally quick right off the mark and some of us takes longer to find our limits, I find mine much faster than some of friends over here that only does casual simracing, and I use a ot longer time than guys like Achim or Stu or Greger or whoever, but I've come close or even overtaken some of the fast guys at the odd track at some point, speaking of lap times not actual racing, so I know it can be done, it just takes a lot of time and effort on my part, time which I mo longer have and effort which I no longer have the desire to put into it And, some people have better eye/hand combination and faster reflexes than others, we're getting old Dave :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Eldred, Goy, As I said in the book, I think Monza is a terrific place to try different setups. "Our own private test track," Alison called it during the beta phase. We're all intimately familiar with it from zillions of online bashes, so consistency shouldn't be an issue. It's dead simple (one fast turn and three slow ones). And it responds well to tweaks. The Glen is also familiar and simple, but the extreme camber throws a figurative wrench into feeling exactly what's going on. Silverstone is too simple and unchallenging, IMO, altho a great place to learn the ropes of online racing (or even AI racing, if you're as yet unfamiliar). Sears (I have 3 different versions) may *seem* simple, but I find it almost as tricky in GPL as I do in NASCAR (which is to say virtually undriveable).. If you just don't "get it" (that is, feel the difference in setups), don't expect to be magically faster with *any* setup. You'll probably have to do a bunch of laps until you're fairly consistent (say within a couple of tenths per minute) before you can evaluate whether or not you feel comfortable driving it, and whether or not it produces any improvement in lap times. Radical changes (low-50s brake bias, 60/x diffs, really soft shox, really stiff springs, etc.) will also throw you off, since they may require you to adopt an entirely new driving style. If you don't like to fiddle with setups, just find some good basic setups like Alison's, and concentrate on your performance on the track instead of in the garage. It ain't rocket science. Check that: it IS rocket science! --Steve "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message news:Jbj19.4037$[email hidden]... > EldredP wrote: > > > > ...As my eyes start to glaze over... > > > > How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to docalculus > > for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it'sonly > > gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives thesame

Quoted text (86 lines)

> > result - worse. I don't get it. :-( > > Well, that's on of the things I was talking about when I said people > were chasing setups too much, if you don't have a decent handle on the > setup you're using *and* are unfamiliar with setup work, how the hell > can you expect to improve upon it ? > > What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one > of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found > *your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the > setup keeping you from going faster > > Is it too unstable under braking, does it have to much > understeer/oversteer, is it too responsive/not responsive enough ? > > And then you can start making some changes, if you feel the setup isn't > responsive enough, try stiffening all the springs an equal amount (%), > that way the overall balance of the car hasn't changed, but increase the > value a lot, say 100% all around to make you feel what this particular > change does and how it translates in "feel" > > Then try some laps, at least 5-10, and make sure you do this at a track > you can drive without thinking much about it, but still has variety, > Monza isn't a good place to start, but Sears or Silverstone would be > good I guess, and try to sense if this was the kind of change you were > looking for, even if this was probably going too far, but you need to > make big changes to to let the setup change filter through all the > "variables" which you have while driving > > Don't tinker about with it, make a HUGE change and try to sense if this > is what you're looking for, just remember that when you change one > setting, it also affect other things, making the car more responsive by > stiffening the springs for instance, will also make it seem like it's > oversteeing more, but it's not really, it's just responding faster to > your inputs so it "feels" like it's oversteering > > But if you can't drive a certain track/setup consistently, it's almost > hopeless to evaluate if the changes you do have made a difference, not > only in lap times, but more importantly in the "feel" of the car as > Steve pointed out > > I did a fair amount of setup chasing myself until my teammate in Team > Mirage handed me a couple of his setups, his baseline setup and his > "endurance" setup for Watkins Glen, this was back in N2 of course, and > running nothing but his baseline setup I did several hundred laps at WG > without changing anything but the gearing, ran enough laps so that I > could run several laps in succession within a couple of tenths of each > other, at which point I knew that whatever change I made to the setup it > would be the change that made it feel different and not some erratic > driving on my part > > At which point I loaded up his other setup and I was slower with this > than with the baseline setup at first as it had a different feel to it, > but unlike the baseline setup it had dead even tire wear front to rear > and really came in after about 10 laps or so, I used a variation of that > setup right up until the end of the N3 era in the TPTCC last spring and > I also used the same baseline setup when first going out on a new track, > and at most tracks this setup would get me within 1 or 2 seconds of a > good lap with my eventual setup > > And it was no trick setup either, now, I know things have moved on a bit > since the N2/3 days with 3D physics and all, but in my opinion, the > basic rules still apply, until you you've "mastered" the car itself, you > can't do any useful work on the setups as the feedback you get are > diluted by your own irregular driving > > Setups is not a black art, but it takes a lot of time and patience, and > with these more sophisticated physics engines, it also takes some basic > "real world" knowledge, my fav book is "Performance handling" (how to > make your car handle, techniques for the > 1990's) by Don Alexander, I believe it's a pt of the HP Books series, > it's the one I keep going back to whenever I'm stuck in a rut, such as > sorting out my turn in oversteer problem in N2002, "increase the rebound > of the rear shocks", you can't guess your way to something like that, > you either know it or need to look it up > > All IMHO of course :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Goy, PC Computing went to the big recycling bin in the sky, along with a bunch of other Ziff-Davis magazines like Yahoo Internet Life. Sic transit, RIP, and all that rot. I'm currently working on an article for Motor Trend about auto-racing games for video consoles. I promulgated this theory about ten years ago that consoles were going to become so technically sophisticated and creatively engaging that they were going to suck all the wind out of PC sims. This prediction is close to coming true with Gran Turismo 3 (sports cars on the PS2); and Rallisport Challenge (Xbox) is actually better than many PC rally titles. Now that Dave Kaemmer has left Papyrus, I wouldn't be surprised if some NASCAR games for consoles don't soon rival Sierra's franchise, and there's no reason why F1 200x couldn't be so "scaleable" (a pushover for tyros; a challenge for the hardcore) that it could eclipse single-seater PC titles. --Steve "Goy Larsen" <"adsales"@get topica.com> wrote in message news:qjj19.4040$[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > > > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver,Road > > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but Ialso > > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the banking @ > > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials"in > > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on"The > > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again),although > > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the CannonballRun

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder). > > Ah, I used to read R&T a bit, until I lost interest in American cars, > that was in the early 80's just before I got my license :-) > > So where would one find some of your articles these day then, online or > otherwise ? > > Don't think they carry PC Computing here, at least I can't remember > seeing it > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Interesting. You could try 1/1 shox in front and 5/5 in the rear, along with mismatched spring rates, and really tall ride heights. Then you'd have to find a swell to initiate the oscillation, then use the brake & throttle to sustain it. I guess. When Brock Yates was at Hobart College in Geneva, NY, he and his beer-guzzling fraternity brothers discovered that you could create a PIO (pilot-induced oscillation) in a 1961 Corvair by spinning the wheel all the way in one direction (the Corvair had really slow steering, even for a rear-engines car), then take your hands off the wheel, and with judicious applications of the throttle, get the steering to see-saw sickeningly from lock to lock like something from a Joie Chitwood or a Hellzapoppin show. They swore they only did this in empty parking lots. Sure. Thutty days or thutty dollahs. Pay the bailiff. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (15 lines)

> Steve, being a master of suspension... > > Is it possible to create Porpoising situation GPL? I would think it > would occur readily when experimenting with really stiff suspensions > but I haven't experienced it that I'm aware of (and I think I'd be > aware of it). > > Jason > > On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:59:30 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Haqsau, > > > >The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same

thing > >as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or > >virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, which > >are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps, > >turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at > >least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect > >with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire dropsback > >down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,rear-end > >lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with thepavement. > >The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can > >determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer. > >Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly ashell > >under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire > >temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined with > >stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on theGPL

Quoted text (14 lines)

> >suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood. > > > >Private lessons available for a fee. > > > >--Steve > > > > > >"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:ahn3ru$u5132$[email hidden]... > >> One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower > >> the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C, > >> and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average > >> 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by > >> raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is

the

Quoted text (13 lines)

> >> preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump > >> damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are > >> too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance - > >> how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps > >> across the tire. > >> > >> Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the > >> tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how > >> the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the > >> brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension > >> travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the > >> old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it > >> causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and

especially

Quoted text (18 lines)

> >> ARB stiffness can help this. > >> > >> AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that > >> use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto > >> the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more > >> downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than > >> you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really > >> useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your > >> ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the > >> track. > >> > >> Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is > >> moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady > >> braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application > >> and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner > >> entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations, > >> a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound > >> damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force

on > >> the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient > >> handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any > >> change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart > >> in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change > >> dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference,which > >> really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly > >> higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping > >> rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly > >> higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly > >> underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steeringcontrol

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >> and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down. > >> > >> > >> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:Icq%8.144669$[email hidden]... > >> > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow > >> this > >> > method. > >> > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing. > >> > 2. adjust gearing > >> > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get

a > >> nice > >> > inside to outside progression. > >> > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking alittle

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >> > negative camber out of one side will help it turn. > >> > 5. check air pressures again... > >> > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings..... > >> > 7...NOW I'M LOST>.... > >> > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how > >> those help > >> > me at each individual track. > >> > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in > >> GENERAL > >> > this should apply to most road course sims right?) > >> > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE

the

Quoted text (12 lines)

> >> fast > >> > rebound or lower it? > >> > And ditto for the slow rebound........ > >> > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge> > >> > dave henrie > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > >

In article <Jbj19.4037$[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <"adsales"@get topica.com> writes:

Quoted text (19 lines)

>EldredP wrote: >> >> ...As my eyes start to glaze over... >> >> How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to do >calculus >> for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it's only >> gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same >> result - worse. I don't get it. :-( > >Well, that's on of the things I was talking about when I said people >were chasing setups too much, if you don't have a decent handle on the >setup you're using *and* are unfamiliar with setup work, how the hell >can you expect to improve upon it ? > >What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one >of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found >*your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the >setup keeping you from going faster

That's another problem. I can be 2 or 3 seconds slower than someone else using the SAME setup. So I wouldn't KNOW why the setup would keep me from going faster. My limits and the limits of the setup are often two vastly different things. What I'm saying is that I'd be stuck at that point, and don't know how to progress. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I think Steve makes a good point. I find on GPL that I get good results by doing just what he says. I started with a base setup. Emtied the tank to about 9 laps worth, Adjusted tire temps (quickly) and my times are now close to the best. I agree with what others in this thread have said, that it is better spending a lot of time getting the most out of a track with a basic setup, than spending heaps of time in the garage. I concerntrate on knowing the track inside out and back the front. Some of my mates get blistering times as a hot lap, but can't keep up consistantly reasonable times during a race, without ending up hanging out of a tree, 40 feet in the air. In the competition I am up against, running 20 laps of consistant 1.07's will win me quite a few races at the Glen.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> If you don't like to fiddle with setups, just find some good basic setups > like Alison's, and concentrate on your performance on the track instead of > in the garage. > > It ain't rocket science. Check that: it IS rocket science! > > --Steve

On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:31:39 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>Interesting. You could try 1/1 shox in front and 5/5 in the rear, along >with mismatched spring rates, and really tall ride heights. Then you'd have >to find a swell to initiate the oscillation, then use the brake & throttle >to sustain it. I guess. > >When Brock Yates was at Hobart College in Geneva, NY, he and his >beer-guzzling fraternity brothers discovered that you could create a PIO >(pilot-induced oscillation) in a 1961 Corvair by spinning the wheel all the >way in one direction (the Corvair had really slow steering, even for a >rear-engines car), then take your hands off the wheel, and with judicious >applications of the throttle, get the steering to see-saw sickeningly from >lock to lock like something from a Joie Chitwood or a Hellzapoppin show. >They swore they only did this in empty parking lots. Sure. Thutty days or >thutty dollahs. Pay the bailiff.

Haha nice. I suppose if we had a physics engine cable of modelling higher frequency bumps and some ground effects cars to play with we could have some fun struggles with suspensions. I really hope that it isn't long before Racing Legends has a good engineering/wind tunnel addon so we can experiment with more daring formulas. I'd love to start a league with all home built-cars following the late 70's formula, except without limitations on on wings or ground effect. Imagine the long nights spent staring at your monitor trying to build a ground effects car with ridiculous grip-to-power and having it all go for naught because the car starts oscillating badly due to the stiff suspensions required to keep the car perfectly situated on the track. Mmmmm. Oh, yeah, what got me thinking about this was some research I was doing last night into the banned Lotus 88. Apparently one of the nice side effects of using a ground effects canopy with stiff suspension was that the car would oscillate madly and the driver would have to slam the brakes to regain control. Wish I had some URL's handy as there was a great mini-interview with Mario Andretti where he was describing this effect in some of the pre-88 Lotus test cars. Jason

On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:19:13 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Now that Dave Kaemmer has left Papyrus Wha? Guess I picked a good time to lose interest in their damn NASCAR sims. =) Jason

"Steve Smith" (snip) Now that Dave Kaemmer has left Papyrus, Is this official? Or the echo of the rumour from last fall??? dave henrie

On 30 Jul 2002 01:04:07 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >That's another problem. I can be 2 or 3 seconds slower than someone else using >the SAME setup. This is why I generally follow a few rules that most others on here will scoff at but my times improve at a rapid pace when I actually put the time in: 1. Don't race mixed-skill pickup races online. 2. Don't race mixed-skill races online period. 3. Don't worry about how fast anyone else is going, set your own pace and slowly build from there. Racing is 99.9% mental, and if you get rattled by how fast other people are going, you're never going to get anywhere. The reason for #2 above is that imho if you keep getting blown away by the fast guys you're going to start pushing yourself past your current limits, which teaches you nothing. Learning how to be fast is about extending your limits by practicing at your current limit until you feel comfortable moving ahead. Driving harder than you're capable of teaches you nothing. 4. Join a rookie league. RASCAR firebrand is fantastic. I joined Firebrand last winter, got absolutely blown away during the practice season, lucky to finish on the lead lap half the time, until the last race when all my practice finally started to click and I won Darlington by 4 laps in a 35% race. Then I dominated the first half of the season by winning 4 of the first 5 races and building a gaudy 300 point lead in the Championship. 5. Don't get rattled. In reference to 4, the last 6 races of the season were the worst 6 I've driven in my life. I won the championship anyway, but barely because I got rattled and ended up crashing out in the last 2 races. 6. A fast driver will go fast in a slow setup. A slow driver will go slow in a fast setup. Don't worry about setups until you and the sim have literally bonded into one coexisting entity. As I said before, I have a fairly decent N2002 rank imho and it was done completely by luck using the fast setups that ship with the game, as I can't turn a wrench to save my life. 7. When you're getting frustrated and nothing you do seems to help, or you're suddenly slower than you were the day before, go outside or read a book. No one is at the top of their game everyday. 8. This is probably a reiteration, but practice your line before worrying about going fast. The fast guys are fast not because they're on the ragged edge (or if they are, they're bound to be ragged and in the wall), they're fast because the know the best way around the track and they can put the car exactly where they want it lap after lap. 9. Develop a technique. Aggressive or smooth. Find a style that suits you and stick to it until you've mastered it. Ultimately you want to be able to be aggressive or smooth depending on the situations in a race, but it's better being good at one than bad at both. Me, I win a decent share of races simply by being slightly off pace but as smooth as is possible. Personally, I think this is the style people should learn first, because it breeds consistency. Anyway, before doing anything else, practice until you can put the car where you want it when you want it. Get a feel for the grip you have to play with. Until you know your driving style, know what the car is going to do, and can literally drive lap after lap exactly the same, don't waste your time with setups or stressing over Gregor Huttu being 0.5 faster than you at Pocono. Jason

I agree w. Jason. In a word--seat time. Okay, I lied: that's 2 words. But yes, racing is 99% mental. Never mind what anybody is doing with that setup; if you can be consistent with it (under pressure), you can win races. And yes, racing online, even against pickup 'artistes', will sharpen your skills. (Racing the AI isn't my idea of pressure.) Racing against people you know will do even more (the peer-pressure factor). If you have to change your shorts after an online race that you won, you're doing everything right. --Steve "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 30 Jul 2002 01:04:07 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > >That's another problem. I can be 2 or 3 seconds slower than someone elseusing

Quoted text (59 lines)

> >the SAME setup. > > This is why I generally follow a few rules that most others on here > will scoff at but my times improve at a rapid pace when I actually put > the time in: > > 1. Don't race mixed-skill pickup races online. > 2. Don't race mixed-skill races online period. > 3. Don't worry about how fast anyone else is going, set your own pace > and slowly build from there. Racing is 99.9% mental, and if you get > rattled by how fast other people are going, you're never going to get > anywhere. The reason for #2 above is that imho if you keep getting > blown away by the fast guys you're going to start pushing yourself > past your current limits, which teaches you nothing. Learning how to > be fast is about extending your limits by practicing at your current > limit until you feel comfortable moving ahead. Driving harder than > you're capable of teaches you nothing. > 4. Join a rookie league. RASCAR firebrand is fantastic. I joined > Firebrand last winter, got absolutely blown away during the practice > season, lucky to finish on the lead lap half the time, until the last > race when all my practice finally started to click and I won > Darlington by 4 laps in a 35% race. Then I dominated the first half > of the season by winning 4 of the first 5 races and building a gaudy > 300 point lead in the Championship. > 5. Don't get rattled. In reference to 4, the last 6 races of the > season were the worst 6 I've driven in my life. I won the > championship anyway, but barely because I got rattled and ended up > crashing out in the last 2 races. > 6. A fast driver will go fast in a slow setup. A slow driver will go > slow in a fast setup. Don't worry about setups until you and the sim > have literally bonded into one coexisting entity. As I said before, I > have a fairly decent N2002 rank imho and it was done completely by > luck using the fast setups that ship with the game, as I can't turn a > wrench to save my life. > 7. When you're getting frustrated and nothing you do seems to help, or > you're suddenly slower than you were the day before, go outside or > read a book. No one is at the top of their game everyday. > 8. This is probably a reiteration, but practice your line before > worrying about going fast. The fast guys are fast not because they're > on the ragged edge (or if they are, they're bound to be ragged and in > the wall), they're fast because the know the best way around the track > and they can put the car exactly where they want it lap after lap. > 9. Develop a technique. Aggressive or smooth. Find a style that > suits you and stick to it until you've mastered it. Ultimately you > want to be able to be aggressive or smooth depending on the situations > in a race, but it's better being good at one than bad at both. > > Me, I win a decent share of races simply by being slightly off pace > but as smooth as is possible. Personally, I think this is the style > people should learn first, because it breeds consistency. > > Anyway, before doing anything else, practice until you can put the car > where you want it when you want it. Get a feel for the grip you have > to play with. Until you know your driving style, know what the car is > going to do, and can literally drive lap after lap exactly the same, > don't waste your time with setups or stressing over Gregor Huttu being > 0.5 faster than you at Pocono. > > Jason

In article <3d45e6a0$0$11269$[email hidden]>, "Darf" <[email hidden]> writes: >In the competition I am up against, running 20 laps of consistant 1.07's >will win me quite a few races at the Glen. Really?!? I need to get into your leagues...<g> I can run 1:07's, but end up getting lapped inside of 30 laps. I've *never* won at WG. :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes: >1. Don't race mixed-skill pickup races online. >2. Don't race mixed-skill races online period. If I don't run in mixed-skill races, then what's LEFT? :-) I realize you're talking mostly about N2002, but the same thing happens in GPL. I hardly consider myself a 'rookie' in GPL, but I've had SEVERAL races where I'm 3-4 seconds off the pace. This occurs even on tracks that I've run a lot of laps on(WG, Silverstone, SPA). I have a certain speed that I can go on a certain track. Whether I'm running solo practice laps or in an online race, that speed is the same. So I don't really *worry* about how fast everyone is, but I'm getting tired of always(or 90% of the time) being the last car running. Granted, I could use some more laps in N2002, but I typically hit a wall quicker than everyone else. Meaning, I'll run a bunch of laps at a track(maybe 20-30). During that time, I'll lower my times to a certain number(say 1:30). That's my limit - no amount of laps will gain me any more time. My gas, shift, and brake points are set by that time. Any attempts to change result in crashes. I may gain a tenth here and there, but that's it. That's what causes the frustration - when that set point is SO far off the pace. I don't really know how better to explain it, so I'll stop whining now...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I hardly consider myself a 'rookie' in GPL, but I've had SEVERAL races where > I'm 3-4 seconds off the pace. This occurs even on tracks that I've run a lot > of laps on(WG, Silverstone, SPA).[snip] > That's my limit - no amount of laps will gain me any more time. My gas, shift, > and brake points are set by that time. Any attempts to change result in > crashes. I may gain a tenth here and there, but that's it. That's what causes > the frustration - when that set point is SO far off the pace. > I don't really know how better to explain it, so I'll stop whining now...<g> Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition). I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it really twelve years? For about the last six of those I've been at the top level of club racing, and somewhere below the 50% mark at Regional meetings. I'm still working on my setups (often exchanging ideas between the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw more money at it), but I'm not finishing noticeably higher and I don't really expect to. Instead, I've just accepted that this is how good I am, and I enjoy the racing while I'm there. For me, the key to this is finding a couple of people who are *really* close to my pace, so I can just have a good battle with them. The top guys will be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've enjoyed my day's racing. This probably ties in with avoiding mixed-skill races - in R/C, the heats are seeded roughly by ability, and the finals are sorted based on qualifying so you're always running with people of a similar pace. I've shared track space with beginners, and it's an exercise in patience and knowing how to use the horse- -power advantage - which you don't have in GPL. HTH, Jonny

Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:L7l19.45807$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> When Brock Yates was at Hobart College in Geneva, NY, he and his > beer-guzzling fraternity brothers discovered that you could create a PIO > (pilot-induced oscillation) in a 1961 Corvair by spinning the wheel all the > way in one direction (the Corvair had really slow steering, even for a > rear-engines car), then take your hands off the wheel, and with judicious > applications of the throttle, get the steering to see-saw sickeningly from > lock to lock like something from a Joie Chitwood or a Hellzapoppin show.

I swear the Y-reg Mondeo estate I drove a while back did something like this on bumpy corners, except without letting go of the steering wheel... it really made me appreciate my 405! There really was something very odd about the front end - it felt very soggy in a straight line, then when you asked it to turn it rolled a bit before going "Ah - you wanted me to turn in?" and doing so very abruptly. Yuk. Jonny

Jonny Hodgson wrote: > Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing > at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition). Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually have a ghost of a chance sometimes. > I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it Hey, me too. > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw > more money at it), Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself. I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part in some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and ended up taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991. During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read: exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our former national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor (that's what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now. Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real one. A tuned one. A professional one. This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards. I jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having access to just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chance racing in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away. Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and that suited me a lot better. > so I can just have a good battle with them. The top guys will > be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I > have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've > enjoyed my day's racing. Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster, does help put things into perspective. Regards, Rudy

Steve Smith wrote:

Quoted text (31 lines)

> > Eldred, Goy, > > As I said in the book, I think Monza is a terrific place to try different > setups. "Our own private test track," Alison called it during the beta > phase. We're all intimately familiar with it from zillions of online > bashes, so consistency shouldn't be an issue. It's dead simple (one fast > turn and three slow ones). And it responds well to tweaks. The Glen is > also familiar and simple, but the extreme camber throws a figurative wrench > into feeling exactly what's going on. Silverstone is too simple and > unchallenging, IMO, altho a great place to learn the ropes of online racing > (or even AI racing, if you're as yet unfamiliar). Sears (I have 3 different > versions) may *seem* simple, but I find it almost as tricky in GPL as I do > in NASCAR (which is to say virtually undriveable).. > > If you just don't "get it" (that is, feel the difference in setups), don't > expect to be magically faster with *any* setup. You'll probably have to do > a bunch of laps until you're fairly consistent (say within a couple of > tenths per minute) before you can evaluate whether or not you feel > comfortable driving it, and whether or not it produces any improvement in > lap times. > > Radical changes (low-50s brake bias, 60/x diffs, really soft shox, really > stiff springs, etc.) will also throw you off, since they may require you to > adopt an entirely new driving style. > > If you don't like to fiddle with setups, just find some good basic setups > like Alison's, and concentrate on your performance on the track instead of > in the garage. > > It ain't rocket science. Check that: it IS rocket science!

I sort of agree with you, the reason I discarded Monza as a testing track is because it doesn't have any real braking zones for a slow corner, and also because people use asymmetric setups to go really fast there I forgot about the camber changes at WG though, good point, get them right and you're good to go, miss them and you're way off on the times As for radical setup changes, when you start out, trying to figure out what a setup change will do to a car, I've always found it better to make a radical change just to provoke a reaction, see if the car is reacting the way I believe it should or if it's just my driving, yes, it may force you to change your driving style to get the best out of it, but that wasn't my (less than clear) point, if you move the brake balance back by 20% it's going to be undriveable, pretty much, but you get a feel for what moving the brake balance back will do to the balance of the car under braking, same with any other setup change you do, make it radical and the car will let you know what you just did I think we agree on the main point though, if you can't drive consistently, you're wasting time changing the setup, any setup, bar the most extreme ones, can be driven consistently by most people, you may be fast or you may be slow, but you will be consistent if you give it enough laps As you say, pick one track, possibly two to break the monotony, and just keep driving until you are consistent, *then* you can start working on the setup Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Quoted text (30 lines)

> Eldred, Goy, > As I said in the book, I think Monza is a terrific place to try different > setups. "Our own private test track," Alison called it during the beta > phase. We're all intimately familiar with it from zillions of online > bashes, so consistency shouldn't be an issue. It's dead simple (one fast > turn and three slow ones). And it responds well to tweaks. The Glen is > also familiar and simple, but the extreme camber throws a figurative wrench > into feeling exactly what's going on. Silverstone is too simple and > unchallenging, IMO, altho a great place to learn the ropes of online racing > (or even AI racing, if you're as yet unfamiliar). Sears (I have 3 different > versions) may *seem* simple, but I find it almost as tricky in GPL as I do > in NASCAR (which is to say virtually undriveable).. > If you just don't "get it" (that is, feel the difference in setups), don't > expect to be magically faster with *any* setup. You'll probably have to do > a bunch of laps until you're fairly consistent (say within a couple of > tenths per minute) before you can evaluate whether or not you feel > comfortable driving it, and whether or not it produces any improvement in > lap times. > Radical changes (low-50s brake bias, 60/x diffs, really soft shox, really > stiff springs, etc.) will also throw you off, since they may require you to > adopt an entirely new driving style. > If you don't like to fiddle with setups, just find some good basic setups > like Alison's, and concentrate on your performance on the track instead of > in the garage. > It ain't rocket science. Check that: it IS rocket science!

I sort of agree with you, the reason I discarded Monza as a testing track is because it doesn't have any real braking zones for a slow corner, and also because people use asymmetric setups to go really fast there I forgot about the camber changes at WG though, good point, get them right and you're good to go, miss them and you're way off on the times As for radical setup changes, when you start out, trying to figure out what a setup change will do to a car, I've always found it better to make a radical change just to provoke a reaction, see if the car is reacting the way I believe it should or if it's just my driving, yes, it may force you to change your driving style to get the best out of it, but that wasn't my (less than clear) point, if you move the brake balance back by 20% it's going to be undriveable, pretty much, but you get a feel for what moving the brake balance back will do to the balance of the car under braking, same with any other setup change you do, make it radical and the car will let you know what you just did I think we agree on the main point though, if you can't drive consistently, you're wasting time changing the setup, any setup, bar the most extreme ones, can be driven consistently by most people, you may be fast or you may be slow, but you will be consistent if you give it enough laps As you say, pick one track, possibly two to break the monotony, and just keep driving until you are consistent, *then* you can start working on the setup Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Eldred, What you describe is exactly what's supposed to be happening. You've found your "sweet spot" on the track. Trying to go faster will only frustrate you. Now the only trick is to find a league where your "sweet spot" is the same as yours. There's no point in lumbering around behind a pack of aliens. Nor in shooting off into the distance ahead of a bunch of amateurs. Find a simpatico group and enjoy! --Steve "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden](jason

Quoted text (7 lines)

> moyer) writes: > > >1. Don't race mixed-skill pickup races online. > >2. Don't race mixed-skill races online period. > > If I don't run in mixed-skill races, then what's LEFT? :-) > I realize you're talking mostly about N2002, but the same thing happens in

GPL. > I hardly consider myself a 'rookie' in GPL, but I've had SEVERAL raceswhere > I'm 3-4 seconds off the pace. This occurs even on tracks that I've run alot > of laps on(WG, Silverstone, SPA). > > I have a certain speed that I can go on a certain track. Whether I'mrunning > solo practice laps or in an online race, that speed is the same. So Idon't > really *worry* about how fast everyone is, but I'm getting tired ofalways(or > 90% of the time) being the last car running. > Granted, I could use some more laps in N2002, but I typically hit a wall > quicker than everyone else. Meaning, I'll run a bunch of laps at atrack(maybe > 20-30). During that time, I'll lower my times to a certain number(say1:30). > That's my limit - no amount of laps will gain me any more time. My gas,shift, > and brake points are set by that time. Any attempts to change result in > crashes. I may gain a tenth here and there, but that's it. That's whatcauses > the frustration - when that set point is SO far off the pace. > I don't really know how better to explain it, so I'll stop whiningnow...<g>

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for running in GPL. I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me chase the car all over the road with the steering wheel. "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (54 lines)

> Jonny Hodgson wrote: > > > Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing > > at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition). > > Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually have > a ghost of a chance sometimes. > > > I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it > > Hey, me too. > > > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment > > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw > > more money at it), > > > Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself. > > I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part in > some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten > once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and ended up > taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991. > > During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and > being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read: > exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our former > national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor (that's > what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now. > Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real > one. A tuned one. A professional one. > > This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards. I > jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch > teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having access to > just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made > all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chance racing > in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away. > Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and that suited > me a lot better. > > > so I can just have a good battle with them. The top guys will > > be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I > > have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've > > enjoyed my day's racing. > > Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster, > does help put things into perspective. > > Regards, Rudy > > > >

Eldred, If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running with the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you. Then study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey. Kinda like being the hunter instead of the hunted! :) . You will always be trying to find the best line, when they are slowing down, turning, and moving away. Study your competition very closely. This will help you get out of your current pattern at that track and will help you over time. Also, a positive and can-do attitude is a must. Following the best car at a new track helped me in real life. Fastest way to learn. !! Oh, one more thing. In racing, everything is always changing. No constants. Nothing linear. Lots of interaction between and within factors. The only thing that must remain constant is your desire to learn and change faster than the competition.!!! grub "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J1G19.48358$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (62 lines)

> Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for > running in GPL. I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me chase > the car all over the road with the steering wheel. > > "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Jonny Hodgson wrote: > > > > > Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing > > > at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition). > > > > Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually have > > a ghost of a chance sometimes. > > > > > I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it > > > > Hey, me too. > > > > > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment > > > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw > > > more money at it), > > > > > > Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself. > > > > I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part in > > some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten > > once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and ended up > > taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991. > > > > During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and > > being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read: > > exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our former > > national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor (that's > > what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now. > > Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real > > one. A tuned one. A professional one. > > > > This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards. I > > jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch > > teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having access to > > just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made > > all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chance racing > > in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away. > > Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and that suited > > me a lot better. > > > > > so I can just have a good battle with them. The top guys will > > > be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I > > > have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've > > > enjoyed my day's racing. > > > > Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster, > > does help put things into perspective. > > > > Regards, Rudy > > > > > > > > > >

Steve Smith wrote: > Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for > running in GPL. I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me chase > the car all over the road with the steering wheel. Ah - but there is, Steve. It's an extraordinary piece of equipment and you'll know when you've found the way to use it just right. It's located right between your ears. ;) Regards, Rudy

In article <eEE19.4276$[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <"adsales"@get topica.com> writes: >As you say, pick one track, possibly two to break the monotony, and just >keep driving until you are consistent, *then* you can start working on >the setup > I have the consistency part down. In most of my league races(GPL), I'm usually near the top for consistency, highest climber, and on-track laps. In my IICC league, I scored points in 22 of 23 races I entered(top 12 spots score points). I finished 2nd (by 25 points) to a guy who only had 18 starts. He had 5 wins. With scratch results applied, I dropped all the way to 4th. I completed 910 laps, 40 more than anyone else in the division, and finished on the lead lap in the first 12 or 13 races. Consistency I *got*. Now I need some fucking SPEED... :-) If you care<g>, the IICC website is: http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/iicc/index.html Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

One of the most unrealistic factors abt. GPL (or *almost* any sim), IMO, is precisely that there is very little of what I would call 'environmental' changes, the absence of which makes driving a whole bunch easier. To wit: nobody ever blows an engine and spills oil all over the track, 'marbles' never build up off the groove, your tires never 'go away' (as they do in NASCAR Racing) and neither do your engine nor brakes nor tranny, you don't have to deal with changing weather, nobody ever tells you to slow down and let Michael Schumacher pass you on the last corner of the last lap, etc. Following the fastest car out there is a prescription for frustration. Try to find somebody as fast as you are...to follow, not to lead. Improvements in pb's usually don't happen in leaps & bounds (maybe they do in the beginning, but rarely after you've plateaued), but getting the adrenaline pumping in a close race (even in a practice session) will ususally result in an incremental improvement. String a few of these together, and you could take a second or two off your best time. And give you something to make you feel good abt. yourself. "grubbat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Eldred, > If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try runningwith > the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you.Then > study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey. > Kinda like being the hunter instead of the hunted! :) . You will always be > trying to find the best line, when they are slowing down, turning, and > moving away. Study your competition very closely. This will help you getout > of your current pattern at that track and will help you over time. Also, a > positive and can-do attitude is a must. Following the best car at a new > track helped me in real life. Fastest way to learn. !! > Oh, one more thing. In racing, everything is always changing. Noconstants.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Nothing linear. Lots of interaction between and within factors. The only > thing that must remain constant is your desire to learn and change faster > than the competition.!!! > grub > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:J1G19.48358$[email hidden]... > > Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for > > running in GPL. I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me

chase

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > the car all over the road with the steering wheel. > > > > "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Jonny Hodgson wrote: > > > > > > > Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing > > > > at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition). > > > > > > Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually

have

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > > a ghost of a chance sometimes. > > > > > > > I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it > > > > > > Hey, me too. > > > > > > > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment > > > > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw > > > > more money at it), > > > > > > > > > Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself. > > > > > > I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part

in > > > some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten > > > once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and endedup > > > taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991. > > > > > > During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and > > > being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read: > > > exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of ourformer > > > national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor(that's > > > what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now. > > > Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real > > > one. A tuned one. A professional one. > > > > > > This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards.I > > > jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch > > > teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having accessto > > > just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made > > > all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chanceracing > > > in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away. > > > Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and thatsuited

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > > me a lot better. > > > > > > > so I can just have a good battle with them. The top guys will > > > > be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I > > > > have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've > > > > enjoyed my day's racing. > > > > > > Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster, > > > does help put things into perspective. > > > > > > Regards, Rudy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, "grubbat" <[email hidden]> writes: >Eldred, >If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running with >the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you. Then >study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey. First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns. They usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything. Or, I crash trying to keep the same speeds(even with the same setup). That's one of the things that puzzles me. I can be running the same setup, following in the person's tire tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit. Grrrr.... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "grubbat" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Eldred, > >If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try runningwith > >the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you.Then > >study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey. > > First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns. They > usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything. Or, I crashtrying to > keep the same speeds(even with the same setup). That's one of the thingsthat > puzzles me. I can be running the same setup, following in the person'stire > tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit. Grrrr.... I think PC power makes a difference, too. R.

EldredP wrote: > First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns. They > usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything. Or, I crash trying to > keep the same speeds(even with the same setup). That's one of the things that > puzzles me. I can be running the same setup, following in the person's tire > tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit. Grrrr.... IIRC you also use autoshift, which makes the problem considerably worse... -- Fester

One of the best things abt. GPL is that it runs great on what nowadays is just a so-so machine. When it first came out, everybody was falling on their swords abt. needing to upgrade to a 400-MHz PII and a Voodoo 3. By now, even with all the eye-popping tweaks and add-ons, a 1.2-Ghz Athlon and a GF2 will do just fine. "Richard S Beckett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ai8ub8$29u$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, "grubbat" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Eldred, > > >If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running > with > > >the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you. > Then > > >study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey. > > > > First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns.

They > > usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything. Or, I crash > trying to > > keep the same speeds(even with the same setup). That's one of thethings

Quoted text (10 lines)

> that > > puzzles me. I can be running the same setup, following in the person's > tire > > tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit. Grrrr.... > > I think PC power makes a difference, too. > > R. > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>EldredP wrote: > >> First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns. They >> usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything. Or, I crash trying >to >> keep the same speeds(even with the same setup). That's one of the things >that >> puzzles me. I can be running the same setup, following in the person's >tire >> tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit. Grrrr.... > > >IIRC you also use autoshift, which makes the problem considerably worse... >

Only in N2002. I've been using manual shift in GPL since the first month I got it. I've tried manual shift in my last two N2002 races(Watkins and Las Vegas) Didn't help. Even so, it should only help when you have to shift during a lap(road courses, maybe Pocono). On ovals, it shouldn't make a difference. Eldred Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment > > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw > > more money at it), > > Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself.[snip] > exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our former > national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor (that's > what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now. > Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real > one. A tuned one. A professional one. Armature. > This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards. I Cool... But then, on the other hand, one of the guys I was pitting with at my last Regional, who I'd outqualified, was grinning from ear to ear at the prospect of running the final with an 8 turn motor he'd borrowed (for you non-RCers, that's pretty much a drag motor). I still won that C-final - which was also pretty satisfying! > Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster, > does help put things into perspective. Absolutely - now does the same argument work for PC hardware in GPL? Jonny

Jonny Hodgson wrote: > Absolutely - now does the same argument work for PC hardware in GPL? No. Well, 'no' up from a point - the point where your hardware is decent enough to run it at 35+ fps, and you have a usable wheel. From that, it's just up to you I'm afraid... (Ok, you could cheat and dumb down the AI or give your car more power, but that takes the fun away, at least for me.) Regards, R

"Richard S Beckett" > > I think PC power makes a difference, too. > > R. > I think that's a minor Urban Myth. To me, what a more powerful PC brings is consistancy, especially in high traffic situations... I've upgraded twice to systems that overpowered the sim our league was racing, and each time, my lap times stayed about the same...I didn't have as many wrecks due to fps/controller problems, but my laptimes just didn't magically shrink(this was a VERY disappointing discovery.) dave henrie

Eldred! I'm telling you, you're in the wrong league! I checked the IIC site, and if yer racing against Aliens who can turn 1:27s @ Monza in third-rate cars, yer an effing masochist! Or an effing optimist! (Or, to paraphrase Parnelli Jones, "Eff the effing effers!") --Steve "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> In article <eEE19.4276$[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen > <"adsales"@get topica.com> writes: > > >As you say, pick one track, possibly two to break the monotony, and just > >keep driving until you are consistent, *then* you can start working on > >the setup > > > > I have the consistency part down. In most of my league races(GPL), I'm

usually > near the top for consistency, highest climber, and on-track laps. In myIICC > league, I scored points in 22 of 23 races I entered(top 12 spots scorepoints). > I finished 2nd (by 25 points) to a guy who only had 18 starts. He had 5wins. > With scratch results applied, I dropped all the way to 4th. I completed910 > laps, 40 more than anyone else in the division, and finished on the leadlap in > the first 12 or 13 races. > Consistency I *got*. Now I need some fucking SPEED... :-) > If you care<g>, the IICC website is:http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/iicc/index.html

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Yv829.60936$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >Eldred! > >I'm telling you, you're in the wrong league! I checked the IIC site, and if >yer racing against Aliens who can turn 1:27s @ Monza in third-rate cars, yer >an effing masochist! Or an effing optimist! (Or, to paraphrase Parnelli >Jones, "Eff the effing effers!") Yes, they ARE effing fast... :-( I'm glad most of the aliens had to drive the "c" cars. I used the Lotus, and was *almost* able to keep up...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > I have the consistency part down. In most of my league races(GPL), I'm usually > near the top for consistency, highest climber, and on-track laps. In my IICC > league, I scored points in 22 of 23 races I entered(top 12 spots score points). > I finished 2nd (by 25 points) to a guy who only had 18 starts. He had 5 wins. > With scratch results applied, I dropped all the way to 4th. I completed 910 > laps, 40 more than anyone else in the division, and finished on the lead lap in > the first 12 or 13 races. > Consistency I *got*. Now I need some fucking SPEED... :-) > If you care<g>, the IICC website is: http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/iicc/index.html

Well, if you have the consistency down, there's no real reason why you shouldn't improve your lap times as well, over time, maybe you're racing too many tracks ? I know I need a lot of laps to get the most out of a track, which is why I don't have time for league racing anymore Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I have the consistency part down. In most of my league races(GPL), I'm usually > near the top for consistency, highest climber, and on-track laps. In my IICC > league, I scored points in 22 of 23 races I entered(top 12 spots score points). > I finished 2nd (by 25 points) to a guy who only had 18 starts. He had 5 wins. > With scratch results applied, I dropped all the way to 4th. I completed 910 > laps, 40 more than anyone else in the division, and finished on the lead lap in > the first 12 or 13 races. > Consistency I *got*. Now I need some ***ing SPEED... :-) > If you care<g>, the IICC website is: http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/iicc/index.html

Well, if you have the consistency down, there's no real reason why you shouldn't improve your lap times as well, over time, maybe you're racing too many tracks ? I know I need a lot of laps to get the most out of a track, which is why I don't have time for league racing anymore Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--