RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It took me quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look thru it.... you might learn something! :-) Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put the facts straight before I go away.... First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want anyone to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very thankful that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take part in them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with the likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts to lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be the fastest driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-) I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans on putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this. Like Eldred stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new.... Infact I wrote those [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time - I've not been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion... I told Eldred I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all surfaced now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story. Okey... let's move on... I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes I can use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new or to understand why it went wrong..... Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe 4 hours ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the highlights from the race.... so that those with lesser connections might be able to see some of the serverside too.. I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from watching these.... but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet... Okey so I've only posted two races (I got Pocono here too - but never posted it) - but nonetheless - there's atleast a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that deserve a remark or two.. Anyway, back to this rulebook business..... [here he go again!] :-) It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set rules and how simply we could enforce them.... There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays - (although I always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we can make this work without much work at all. What is needed though is that we go away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch shouldnt be a problem for drivers anyway... If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely... Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to do is ask... The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can join the races or more importantly - who can't! What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled - by everyone! So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to tell him or tell *on* him... Meaning that if some jump the start or pass "under yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First time will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could then either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow.... should he still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If we to make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so easily... Penalties might sound harsh..... but IMO they are needed to get the message thru to people.. The whole point here is to make people aware or the rules and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who has "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another.... if he does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face the penalty for it... The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I am sure we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that 'driver X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge what kind of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats needed. The bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick by the rules... He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he can just as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any penalties or warnings - problem solved! It really should not be necessary to kick or ban any drivers at all..... The sole point here is to make drivers aware of the rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it.... Why is that?, you say - ? Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more then 1 driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell.... Should he decide not to tell - then it's his loss.... So what types of rules do we need then?????? Well... I've made my suggestions heard..... although not all of 'em are equally important to me.... Some of you seem to think of every reason there possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing - instead of at least be willing to give it a try.... It can't hurt to try - can it??? Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought I've never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the exception of at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not.... Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do.... But atleast turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is along side you.... What rules we should have is up to us all... all I'm interrested in is better - cleaner and more "safe" racing... I want to have fun and enjoy the racing - just like everyone else... I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight on starts and I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow.... - those are my views... what get's decided is up to you guys now... I'm leaving for Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch probably means that by the time I get back - something has been decided... either by you or by Eldred. Before I go though.... I would like offer some insight to our "problem-areas"... Over the last few days - I've spendt 10+ hours or so reviewing the server replays from the last 12 RASCAR races..... and seeing that the Americans are so fond of statistics - I thought I might share this with you guys... I've gathered this information from raced we run on Eldred server... Only oval races with yellows on has been reviewed so this exclude Sears, The Glen and the last race at Pocono... I hope this information will be an eyeopener for some of you guys and that it will be of help when deciding upon whats needed to be done... As you see - things are not as good as some might think.. IMO. As with all things there's probably a sampling error of a few precent here... but I think and hope it's not more than 3-5% RASCAR - STATISTICS: - During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps - Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of all the laps. - We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged 10 green laps between each yellow. - Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 - Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a incident as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin control - that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point before the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X' spun and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit one car - regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the track - that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2 others - that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident.. But if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single incidents.... get it? Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... - Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) - Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37 (6) - Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17 (6) - Accidents caused by warping: 2 (9) - Accidents involving a single car: 42 - Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 - Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) Explaination: Number in brackets ( ) is additional incidents that I've classified as 'possible incidents' meaning they are a bit in the twiglight zone... Racing back to the yellow was defined as being from the point when the yellows were lit thru to Turn 1 after crossing the S/F line / taking the flag. I've also tried to use some sense while judging who actually had a chance of avoiding being collected or involved in the accident causing the yellow too.. Incidents occuring on pacelaps include the distance from the pacecar collect the field thru to the green flag being dropped.. Everything from an small 'bump' to cars being wrecked badly is counted for here... Deliberate bumps have been dropped. *Accidents* on starts/restarts is judge differently - these are just single occuraces of an accident on the start - i.e we had an accident on 17 starts/restarts! Start/restart is defined as from the Green drops thru to the B.S... Numbers in brackets include accidents occuring on the first green lap too.... (i.e accidents occuring beyond the B.S) Singlecar accidents = a single car spinning out without "help" - read - driver error. "Other causes" = stuff like Dave's freeze problems and more... Cars being collected = cars being collected by *spinning* cars/ cars out of control.... Warp... I could only find 2 incidents that I can clearly identify as a warp... althought in many cases things might have looked differnt on the client side... I saw a bunch of "50cm. warps" - meaning cars being less than 50cm from eachother and then spinning out without any true contact.... I've not looked at these as warps because I've deemed contact to be unavoidable anyway... Thats about all i have to say I guess.. in little over 24 hrs I'll be on my way to Brazil and I can only hope you guys can make some good use of this... Thank you for listening :-) Psst: if you got any questions - now's a good time to ask. -- ed_

Ed... We don't often agree....but on this matter I would be 100% in agreement with you. I don't even run in the RASCAR events, but I would thank you for the obvious extensive work you have taken to review race replays....heck, even to write the long and well thought out post you made tonight. I'm also sure it was not totally an easy post for you to write....and you probably have better things to do just before leaving for a long trip. Racing of any kind, without even a simple set of rules....is not racing, IMHO. Its just screwing around. Even..."Friday Night Destruction Derby" races.....mayhem as they are.....have rules. The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of your bunch. You can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if you let anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing in N2K2. Heck....some kid who wonders into RAS, just bought the "game" yesterday....could enter (and ruin) a race. It is also a polite way to "kick somebody out"....and keep them out.....of future events. The proponents say, "We just want fun races....without all the hassles of league racing rules." Well, nothing in my mind is fun about what you guys have been doing on Saturdays. I can race in pickup racing on the Sierra servers if that's what I look for in "fun" racing. I don't. And, I don't think most of the better/experienced drivers in this community enjoy that kind of racing either. But, you want to have events where experienced and inexperienced sim racers can mingle on the track in competition.....learn some stuff....without the pressure of season points championships and so forth.....why does having a simple set of rules preclude that? It doesn't....obviously. Have a good trip. Hope this works out for you guys. Regards, Tom "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message news:txI%8.2481$[email hidden]... > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It tookme

Quoted text (10 lines)

> quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look thru > it.... you might learn something! :-) > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with > regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put the facts > straight before I go away.... > > First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want anyone > to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very thankful > that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take part

in

Quoted text (10 lines)

> them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with the > likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts to > lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be the fastest > driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-) > > I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans on > putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this. Like Eldred > stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new.... Infact I wrote those > [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time - I've not > been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion... I told

Eldred > I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it allsurfaced

Quoted text (7 lines)

> now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that > 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story. > > Okey... let's move on... > > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes I

can > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new or to > understand why it went wrong..... Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe 4hours > ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing thehighlights > from the race.... so that those with lesser connections might be able to > see some of the serverside too.. > I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from watching > these.... but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet... Okey so I've > only posted two races (I got Pocono here too - but never posted it) - but > nonetheless - there's atleast a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that deservea > remark or two.. > > Anyway, back to this rulebook business..... [here he go again!] :-) > It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set rulesand > how simply we could enforce them.... > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays - (although I > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we canmake > this work without much work at all. What is needed though is that we go > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch shouldnt > be a problem for drivers anyway... > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely... > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to dois > ask... > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can jointhe > races or more importantly - who can't! > > What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled - by > everyone! > So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to tellhim > or tell *on* him... Meaning that if some jump the start or pass "under > yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First time > will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could then > either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow.... shouldhe > still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If we to > make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so easily... > > Penalties might sound harsh..... but IMO they are needed to get themessage > thru to people.. The whole point here is to make people aware or therules > and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who has > "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another.... if he > does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face the > penalty for it... > The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I amsure > we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that'driver > X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge whatkind > of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats needed. The > bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick by the > rules... He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he canjust > as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any penaltiesor > warnings - problem solved! It really should not be necessary to kick orban > any drivers at all..... The sole point here is to make drivers aware ofthe > rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it.... Whyis > that?, you say - ? > > Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more then 1 > driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell.... Shouldhe > decide not to tell - then it's his loss.... > > So what types of rules do we need then?????? > Well... I've made my suggestions heard..... although not all of 'em are > equally important to me.... Some of you seem to think of every reasonthere > possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing -instead

Quoted text (12 lines)

> of at least be willing to give it a try.... It can't hurt to try - can > it??? > > Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought I've > never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the exception of > at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not.... > Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do.... But atleast > turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is along side > you.... > > What rules we should have is up to us all... all I'm interrested in is > better - cleaner and more "safe" racing... I want to have fun and enjoy

the > racing - just like everyone else... > > I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight on startsand > I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow.... - those are my > views... what get's decided is up to you guys now... I'm leaving for > Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch probably > means that by the time I get back - something has been decided... eitherby

Quoted text (9 lines)

> you or by Eldred. > > Before I go though.... I would like offer some insight to our > "problem-areas"... > Over the last few days - I've spendt 10+ hours or so reviewing the server > replays from the last 12 RASCAR races..... and seeing that the Americans > are so fond of statistics - I thought I might share this with you guys... > I've gathered this information from raced we run on Eldred server... Only > oval races with yellows on has been reviewed so this exclude Sears, The

Glen > and the last race at Pocono... I hope this information will be aneyeopener

Quoted text (11 lines)

> for some of you guys and that it will be of help when deciding upon whats > needed to be done... As you see - things are not as good as some might > think.. IMO. > > As with all things there's probably a sampling error of a few precent > here... but I think and hope it's not more than 3-5% > > RASCAR - STATISTICS: > > - During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps > - Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of

all

Quoted text (8 lines)

> the laps. > - We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged 10 > green laps between each yellow. > - Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 > - Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > > I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a incident > as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin

control - > that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point before > the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X' spun > and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit onecar - > regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down thetrack - > that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2others - > that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident..But > if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 singleincidents....

Quoted text (25 lines)

> get it? > Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then > collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > > Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > > - Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) > - Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37 (6) > - Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17 (6) > - Accidents caused by warping: 2 (9) > - Accidents involving a single car: 42 > - Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 > - Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) > > Explaination: > Number in brackets ( ) is additional incidents that I've classified as > 'possible incidents' meaning they are a bit in the twiglight zone... > > Racing back to the yellow was defined as being from the point when the > yellows were lit thru to Turn 1 after crossing the S/F line / taking the > flag. I've also tried to use some sense while judging who actually had a > chance of avoiding being collected or involved in the accident causing the > yellow too.. > > Incidents occuring on pacelaps include the distance from the pacecar

collect > the field thru to the green flag being dropped.. Everything from an small > 'bump' to cars being wrecked badly is counted for here... Deliberate bumps > have been dropped. > > *Accidents* on starts/restarts is judge differently - these are justsingle

Quoted text (11 lines)

> occuraces of an accident on the start - i.e we had an accident on 17 > starts/restarts! Start/restart is defined as from the Green drops thru to > the B.S... Numbers in brackets include accidents occuring on the first > green lap too.... (i.e accidents occuring beyond the B.S) > > Singlecar accidents = a single car spinning out without "help" - read - > driver error. > > "Other causes" = stuff like Dave's freeze problems and more... > > Cars being collected = cars being collected by *spinning* cars/ cars out

of > control.... > > Warp... I could only find 2 incidents that I can clearly identify as a > warp... althought in many cases things might have looked differnt on the > client side... I saw a bunch of "50cm. warps" - meaning cars being less > than 50cm from eachother and then spinning out without any truecontact.... > I've not looked at these as warps because I've deemed contact to be > unavoidable anyway... > > Thats about all i have to say I guess.. in little over 24 hrs I'll be onmy > way to Brazil and I can only hope you guys can make some good use ofthis...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Thank you for listening :-) > > Psst: if you got any questions - now's a good time to ask. > -- > ed_ > > >

> I am very thankful >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take part in >them. I agree and continue to thank him, John, Phil for all their work and you as well for your suggestions Ed. I have kept quiet on the rules package mainly because I can honestly say I have never been wrecked on purpose in RASCAR. Stupid moves :) sure but you see those on Sundays too with the big boys. My main hope is that we don't screw up a good thing and throw away the hard work of the aforementioned people. We should ALL be able to adapt to any rules that are applied (provided we are invited) or, race the same way we have with a little more respect for fellow drivers. Hope to see y'all every Saturday. Dan O'Brien

"Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message news:txI%8.2481$[email hidden]... > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It tookme > quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look thru > it.... you might learn something! :-) > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with > regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put the facts > straight before I go away.... I don't remember anyone blaming you for ruining RASCAR just because of your rule suggestions. That other thread did get ridiculously negative though, and it was a small group effort. It came at an especially odd time considering we just had two races with only 12 yellows, a number of which were caused by warp. Your stats only show 2 (possibly 9 more) yellows caused by warp in the last 12 races??? That's bizarre. Three of the seven at Coke were due to warp alone (one with Larry and I). Texas had warp problems too. I got warped into at Daytona the week before. No racing back to the line under yellow and forced chat are fine with me for now. David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" said: > I don't remember anyone blaming you for ruining RASCAR just because ofyour > rule suggestions. That other thread did get ridiculously negative though, > and it was a small group effort. It came at an especially odd time > considering we just had two races with only 12 yellows, a number of which > were caused by warp. I was hoping my 'wink' would let you know - that I was sort joking Dave... :-) But seeing some I've even surfaced in the subject line of some of these posts - one can begin to wonder tho.. <g!> > Your stats only show 2 (possibly 9 more) yellows caused by warp in thelast > 12 races??? That's bizarre. Three of the seven at Coke were due to warp > alone (one with Larry and I). Texas had warp problems too. I got warpedinto > at Daytona the week before. Like I said: "I could only find 2 incidents that I can clearly identify as a warp... althought in many cases things might have looked [*very*] different on the client side... I saw a bunch of "50cm. warps" - meaning cars being less than 50cm from eachother and then spinning out without any true contact.... I've not looked at these as warps because I've deemed contact to be unavoidable anyway..." It might also be quite possible that I might have overlooked an incident or two too... Registering warps were actually not my highest priority with this survey - as this is not something rules can fix (short of "banning" drivers - that is) -- ed_

Ed, your caution flag statistical analysis has proved the following things to me: 1) We shouldn't allow racing back to the yellow. 2) We shouldn't allow passing until after the start/finish line (I really find it difficult to deny passing until the backstretch). 3) People need to learn how to drive behind the pace car (and should not be chatting). 4) People simply need to practice more before a race. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Tom, Have you actually RUN in our Races? What are all these 'problems' you are talking about that don't make them fun? I've been in half a dozen races or so, and I have NO complaints about ANY of them. -Larry "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PnJ%8.633265$352.134798@sccrnsc02... > Ed... > > We don't often agree....but on this matter I would be 100% in agreementwith > you. > > I don't even run in the RASCAR events, but I would thank you for theobvious > extensive work you have taken to review race replays....heck, even towrite > the long and well thought out post you made tonight. I'm also sure itwas

Quoted text (8 lines)

> not totally an easy post for you to write....and you probably have better > things to do just before leaving for a long trip. > > Racing of any kind, without even a simple set of rules....is not racing, > IMHO. Its just screwing around. Even..."Friday Night Destruction Derby" > races.....mayhem as they are.....have rules. > > The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of your bunch.

You

Quoted text (29 lines)

> can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if you let > anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing in N2K2. > Heck....some kid who wonders into RAS, just bought the "game" > yesterday....could enter (and ruin) a race. It is also a polite way to > "kick somebody out"....and keep them out.....of future events. > > The proponents say, "We just want fun races....without all the hassles of > league racing rules." Well, nothing in my mind is fun about what you guys > have been doing on Saturdays. I can race in pickup racing on the Sierra > servers if that's what I look for in "fun" racing. I don't. And, I don't > think most of the better/experienced drivers in this community enjoy that > kind of racing either. But, you want to have events where experienced and > inexperienced sim racers can mingle on the track in competition.....learn > some stuff....without the pressure of season points championships and so > forth.....why does having a simple set of rules preclude that? It > doesn't....obviously. > > Have a good trip. Hope this works out for you guys. > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > > "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message > news:txI%8.2481$[email hidden]... > > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It

took

Quoted text (9 lines)

> me > > quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look thru > > it.... you might learn something! :-) > > > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with > > regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put the facts > > straight before I go away.... > > > > First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want

anyone > > to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am verythankful > > that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to takepart > in > > them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par withthe > > likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great lenghtsto

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be the fastest > > driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-) > > > > I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans on > > putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this. Like Eldred > > stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new.... Infact I wrote those > > [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time - I've

not

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion... I told > Eldred > > I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all > surfaced > > now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that > > 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story. > > > > Okey... let's move on... > > > > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the > > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes I > can > > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new or

to > > understand why it went wrong..... Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe 4 > hours > > ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the > highlights > > from the race.... so that those with lesser connections might be ableto > > see some of the serverside too.. > > I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from watching > > these.... but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet... Okey so I've > > only posted two races (I got Pocono here too - but never posted it) -but > > nonetheless - there's atleast a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. thatdeserve

Quoted text (8 lines)

> a > > remark or two.. > > > > Anyway, back to this rulebook business..... [here he go again!] :-) > > It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set rules > and > > how simply we could enforce them.... > > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays - (although

I > > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we can > make > > this work without much work at all. What is needed though is that we go > > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilchshouldnt

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > be a problem for drivers anyway... > > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that > > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely... > > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to do > is > > ask... > > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can join > the > > races or more importantly - who can't! > > > > What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled - by > > everyone! > > So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to tell > him > > or tell *on* him... Meaning that if some jump the start or pass "under > > yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First tim

e > > will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could then > > either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow....should > he > > still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If weto > > make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved soeasily...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > > Penalties might sound harsh..... but IMO they are needed to get the > message > > thru to people.. The whole point here is to make people aware or the > rules > > and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who has > > "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another.... if

he

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face the > > penalty for it... > > The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I am > sure > > we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that > 'driver > > X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge what > kind > > of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats needed.

The > > bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick bythe > > rules... He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he can > just > > as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without anypenalties

Quoted text (10 lines)

> or > > warnings - problem solved! It really should not be necessary to kick or > ban > > any drivers at all..... The sole point here is to make drivers aware of > the > > rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it.... Why > is > > that?, you say - ? > > > > Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more then

1 > > driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell.... Should > he > > decide not to tell - then it's his loss.... > > > > So what types of rules do we need then?????? > > Well... I've made my suggestions heard..... although not all of 'emare

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > equally important to me.... Some of you seem to think of every reason > there > > possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing - > instead > > of at least be willing to give it a try.... It can't hurt to try - can > > it??? > > > > Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought

I've > > never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the exceptionof > > at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not.... > > Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do.... But atleast > > turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is alongside

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > you.... > > > > What rules we should have is up to us all... all I'm interrested in is > > better - cleaner and more "safe" racing... I want to have fun and enjoy > the > > racing - just like everyone else... > > > > I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight on starts > and > > I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow.... - those are my > > views... what get's decided is up to you guys now... I'm leaving for > > Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch

probably > > means that by the time I get back - something has been decided...either > by > > you or by Eldred. > > > > Before I go though.... I would like offer some insight to our > > "problem-areas"... > > Over the last few days - I've spendt 10+ hours or so reviewing theserver > > replays from the last 12 RASCAR races..... and seeing that theAmericans > > are so fond of statistics - I thought I might share this with youguys... > > I've gathered this information from raced we run on Eldred server...Only > > oval races with yellows on has been reviewed so this exclude Sears, The > Glen > > and the last race at Pocono... I hope this information will be an > eyeopener > > for some of you guys and that it will be of help when deciding uponwhats

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > needed to be done... As you see - things are not as good as some might > > think.. IMO. > > > > As with all things there's probably a sampling error of a few precent > > here... but I think and hope it's not more than 3-5% > > > > RASCAR - STATISTICS: > > > > - During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps > > - Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of > all > > the laps. > > - We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged

10 > > green laps between each yellow. > > - Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 > > - Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > > > > I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define aincident > > as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin > control - > > that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident pointbefore > > the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X'spun

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit one > car - > > regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the > track - > > that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2 > others - > > that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident.. > But > > if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single > incidents.... > > get it? > > Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then > > collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > > > > Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > > > > - Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) > > - Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37 (6) > > - Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17

(6) > > - Accidents caused by warping: 2(9)

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > - Accidents involving a single car: 42 > > - Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 > > - Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) > > > > Explaination: > > Number in brackets ( ) is additional incidents that I've classified as > > 'possible incidents' meaning they are a bit in the twiglight zone... > > > > Racing back to the yellow was defined as being from the point when the > > yellows were lit thru to Turn 1 after crossing the S/F line / taking the > > flag. I've also tried to use some sense while judging who actually had a > > chance of avoiding being collected or involved in the accident causing

the > > yellow too.. > > > > Incidents occuring on pacelaps include the distance from the pacecar > collect > > the field thru to the green flag being dropped.. Everything from ansmall > > 'bump' to cars being wrecked badly is counted for here... Deliberatebumps > > have been dropped. > > > > *Accidents* on starts/restarts is judge differently - these are just > single > > occuraces of an accident on the start - i.e we had an accident on 17 > > starts/restarts! Start/restart is defined as from the Green drops thruto

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > the B.S... Numbers in brackets include accidents occuring on the first > > green lap too.... (i.e accidents occuring beyond the B.S) > > > > Singlecar accidents = a single car spinning out without "help" - read - > > driver error. > > > > "Other causes" = stuff like Dave's freeze problems and more... > > > > Cars being collected = cars being collected by *spinning* cars/ cars out > of > > control.... > > > > Warp... I could only find 2 incidents that I can clearly identify as a > > warp... althought in many cases things might have looked differnt on the > > client side... I saw a bunch of "50cm. warps" - meaning cars being

less

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > than 50cm from eachother and then spinning out without any true > contact.... > > I've not looked at these as warps because I've deemed contact to be > > unavoidable anyway... > > > > Thats about all i have to say I guess.. in little over 24 hrs I'll be on > my > > way to Brazil and I can only hope you guys can make some good use of > this... > > Thank you for listening :-) > > > > Psst: if you got any questions - now's a good time to ask. > > -- > > ed_ > > > > > > > >

"John Simmons" said: > Ed, your caution flag statistical analysis has proved the following > things to me: > 1) We shouldn't allow racing back to the yellow. Agreed. > 2) We shouldn't allow passing until after the start/finish line (I > really find it difficult to deny passing until the backstretch). Do you mean the s/f line as in passing the s/f-line a lap after the green flag? Or do you mean as in passing the s/f-line on the start - as pr. N2002 rules? If you mean the former - I actually disagree... Because I think that willl just give us another 'turn 1 sceneario' - only this time at greater speed and possibly with worse concequenses.. The reason I would like passing to be allowed as we enter the B.S - that is *after* we've *exited* turn 2 - is becuse this give us all a much greater distance to race on - nefore we have to brake/enter another turn.. With racing/passing starting at the S/F line we have almost half the distance to complete the pass on. > 3) People need to learn how to drive behind the pace car (and should not > be chatting). From what I could understand/remember - few of these incidents were actually related to chatting... Most were caused by people who "rammed" the end of the paceline after taking the yellow flag (after T2 that is) > 4) People simply need to practice more before a race. Yes. But more importantly - people need to practice running [safely] in traffic - simple hotlaps will not do. We need to learn how to race within our limits and not as fast as possible. -- ed_

In article <PnJ%8.633265$352.134798@sccrnsc02>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of your bunch. You >can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if you let >anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing in N2K2. Most leagues are the open membership type - anyone can get into the league to start. They may get kicked out later, but I only know a few who 'screen' drivers before they're accepted. Fortunately, I've always passed that screening when necessary.<g> Hell, I was even invited into MoG, and I was flattered as HELL... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <txI%8.2481$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> writes:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want anyone >to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very thankful >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take part in >them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with the >likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts to >lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be the fastest >driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-)

Thanks for the kind words.

Quoted text (28 lines)

>RASCAR - STATISTICS: > >- During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps >- Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of all >the laps. >- We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged 10 >green laps between each yellow. >- Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 >- Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > >I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a incident >as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin control - >that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point before >the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X' spun >and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit one car - >regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the track - >that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2 others - >that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident.. But >if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single incidents.... >get it? >Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then >collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > >Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > >- Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13)

Way too many. As John(and others) said, maybe we SHOULD eliminate racing back to yellow. >- Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37 (6) Now this is ridiculous. Even though I've done it once, I *still* say it's stupid to have an incident under caution. The 2 main causes of this are probably (1)someone futzing around through the function screen keys(figuring pit strategy, etc. and (2)the accordion effect as people can't maintain even seperation. I don't know how to solve #1. Some people don't have enough buttons on their wheel, and the keyboard is awkward to reach. That's what caused *my* fuckup... :-( If people would STFU during cautions, #2 shouldn't happen as often. Quit chatting, and you won't be varying your speed all over the place. >- Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17 (6) >- Accidents caused by warping: 2 (9) >- Accidents involving a single car: 42 Practice. But, I've heard that the car gets VERY loose after you tear up the rear of it. Some of those single incidents may be cause by existing damage. >- Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 >- Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) Not much you can do about these that I can easily think of... I wonder if other leagues keep stats on their incidents? Good grief, Man - don't you have a life?!? :-) I certainly wouldn't have had the patience to go through all this. Thanks! Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Ah, good point, Larry. I am referring to "reading about them"....in this newsgroup.....problems that is. Sorry for not making that clearer. TP "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:12S%8.132812$%%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Tom, > > Have you actually RUN in our Races? > > What are all these 'problems' you are talking about that don't make them > fun? > > I've been in half a dozen races or so, and I have NO complaints about ANY

of

Quoted text (19 lines)

> them. > > -Larry > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:PnJ%8.633265$352.134798@sccrnsc02... > > Ed... > > > > We don't often agree....but on this matter I would be 100% in agreement > with > > you. > > > > I don't even run in the RASCAR events, but I would thank you for the > obvious > > extensive work you have taken to review race replays....heck, even to > write > > the long and well thought out post you made tonight. I'm also sure it > was > > not totally an easy post for you to write....and you probably have

better > > things to do just before leaving for a long trip. > > > > Racing of any kind, without even a simple set of rules....is not racing, > > IMHO. Its just screwing around. Even..."Friday Night DestructionDerby"

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > races.....mayhem as they are.....have rules. > > > > The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of your bunch. > You > > can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if you let > > anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing in N2K2. > > Heck....some kid who wonders into RAS, just bought the "game" > > yesterday....could enter (and ruin) a race. It is also a polite way to > > "kick somebody out"....and keep them out.....of future events. > > > > The proponents say, "We just want fun races....without all the hassles

of > > league racing rules." Well, nothing in my mind is fun about what youguys > > have been doing on Saturdays. I can race in pickup racing on the Sierra > > servers if that's what I look for in "fun" racing. I don't. And, Idon't > > think most of the better/experienced drivers in this community enjoythat > > kind of racing either. But, you want to have events where experiencedand > > inexperienced sim racers can mingle on the track incompetition.....learn

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > some stuff....without the pressure of season points championships and so > > forth.....why does having a simple set of rules preclude that? It > > doesn't....obviously. > > > > Have a good trip. Hope this works out for you guys. > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message > > news:txI%8.2481$[email hidden]... > > > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It > took > > me > > > quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look

thru > > > it.... you might learn something! :-) > > > > > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything"with > > > regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put thefacts

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > straight before I go away.... > > > > > > First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want > anyone > > > to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very > thankful > > > that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take > part > > in > > > them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with > the > > > likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great

lenghts > to > > > lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be thefastest > > > driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope:-) > > > > > > I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans on > > > putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this. LikeEldred

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > > stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new.... Infact I wrote those > > > [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time - I've > not > > > been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion... I told > > Eldred > > > I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all > > surfaced > > > now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that > > > 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story. > > > > > > Okey... let's move on... > > > > > > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the > > > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes

I > > can > > > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something newor > to > > > understand why it went wrong..... Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe 4 > > hours > > > ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the > > highlights > > > from the race.... so that those with lesser connections might beable > to > > > see some of the serverside too.. > > > I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something fromwatching > > > these.... but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet... Okey soI've

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > only posted two races (I got Pocono here too - but never posted it) - > but > > > nonetheless - there's atleast a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that > deserve > > a > > > remark or two.. > > > > > > Anyway, back to this rulebook business..... [here he go again!] :-) > > > It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set

rules > > and > > > how simply we could enforce them.... > > > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays -(although > I > > > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... wecan > > make > > > this work without much work at all. What is needed though is that wego > > > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch > shouldnt > > > be a problem for drivers anyway... > > > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that > > > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or lessregularely... > > > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has todo > > is > > > ask... > > > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who canjoin > > the > > > races or more importantly - who can't! > > > > > > What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled -by > > > everyone! > > > So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers totell > > him > > > or tell *on* him... Meaning that if some jump the start or pass"under > > > yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. Firsttim > e > > > will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we couldthen

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > > either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow.... > should > > he > > > still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If we > to > > > make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so > easily... > > > > > > Penalties might sound harsh..... but IMO they are needed to get the > > message > > > thru to people.. The whole point here is to make people aware or the > > rules > > > and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who has > > > "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another.... if > he > > > does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face

the > > > penalty for it... > > > The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I am > > sure > > > we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that > > 'driver > > > X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judgewhat

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > kind > > > of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats needed. > The > > > bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick by > the > > > rules... He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he can > > just > > > as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any > penalties > > or > > > warnings - problem solved! It really should not be necessary to kick

or > > ban > > > any drivers at all..... The sole point here is to make drivers awareof > > the > > > rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it....Why > > is > > > that?, you say - ? > > > > > > Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with morethen > 1 > > > driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell....Should

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > he > > > decide not to tell - then it's his loss.... > > > > > > So what types of rules do we need then?????? > > > Well... I've made my suggestions heard..... although not all of 'em > are > > > equally important to me.... Some of you seem to think of every reason > > there > > > possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing - > > instead > > > of at least be willing to give it a try.... It can't hurt to try -

can > > > it??? > > > > > > Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought > I've > > > never used anything else myself - and I have never - with theexception > of > > > at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not.... > > > Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do.... Butatleast > > > turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is along > side > > > you.... > > > > > > What rules we should have is up to us all... all I'm interrested inis > > > better - cleaner and more "safe" racing... I want to have fun andenjoy > > the > > > racing - just like everyone else... > > > > > > I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight onstarts > > and > > > I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow.... - those aremy

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > > views... what get's decided is up to you guys now... I'm leaving for > > > Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch > probably > > > means that by the time I get back - something has been decided... > either > > by > > > you or by Eldred. > > > > > > Before I go though.... I would like offer some insight to our > > > "problem-areas"... > > > Over the last few days - I've spendt 10+ hours or so reviewing the > server > > > replays from the last 12 RASCAR races..... and seeing that the > Americans > > > are so fond of statistics - I thought I might share this with you > guys... > > > I've gathered this information from raced we run on Eldred server... > Only > > > oval races with yellows on has been reviewed so this exclude Sears,

The > > Glen > > > and the last race at Pocono... I hope this information will be an > > eyeopener > > > for some of you guys and that it will be of help when deciding upon > whats > > > needed to be done... As you see - things are not as good as somemight

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > think.. IMO. > > > > > > As with all things there's probably a sampling error of a few precent > > > here... but I think and hope it's not more than 3-5% > > > > > > RASCAR - STATISTICS: > > > > > > - During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps > > > - Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7%

of

Quoted text (23 lines)

> > all > > > the laps. > > > - We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged > 10 > > > green laps between each yellow. > > > - Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 > > > - Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > > > > > > I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a > incident > > > as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin > > control - > > > that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point > before > > > the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X' > spun > > > and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit one > > car - > > > regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the > > track - > > > that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2 > > others - > > > that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single

incident.. > > But > > > if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single > > incidents.... > > > get it? > > > Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft andthen > > > collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > > > > > > Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > > > > > > - Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) > > > - Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37(6) > > > - Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17 > (6) > > > - Accidents caused by warping: 2 > (9) > > > - Accidents involving a single car:42

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > - Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 > > > - Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) > > > > > > Explaination: > > > Number in brackets ( ) is additional incidents that I've classified as > > > 'possible incidents' meaning they are a bit in the twiglight zone... > > > > > > Racing back to the yellow was defined as being from the point when the > > > yellows were lit thru to Turn 1 after crossing the S/F line / taking

the > > > flag. I've also tried to use some sense while judging who actually hada

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > > chance of avoiding being collected or involved in the accident causing > the > > > yellow too.. > > > > > > Incidents occuring on pacelaps include the distance from the pacecar > > collect > > > the field thru to the green flag being dropped.. Everything from an > small > > > 'bump' to cars being wrecked badly is counted for here... Deliberate > bumps > > > have been dropped. > > > > > > *Accidents* on starts/restarts is judge differently - these are just > > single > > > occuraces of an accident on the start - i.e we had an accident on 17 > > > starts/restarts! Start/restart is defined as from the Green drops thru > to > > > the B.S... Numbers in brackets include accidents occuring on the

first > > > green lap too.... (i.e accidents occuring beyond the B.S) > > > > > > Singlecar accidents = a single car spinning out without "help" -read - > > > driver error. > > > > > > "Other causes" = stuff like Dave's freeze problems and more... > > > > > > Cars being collected = cars being collected by *spinning* cars/ carsout > > of > > > control.... > > > > > > Warp... I could only find 2 incidents that I can clearly identify asa > > > warp... althought in many cases things might have looked differnt onthe

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > client side... I saw a bunch of "50cm. warps" - meaning cars being > less > > > than 50cm from eachother and then spinning out without any true > > contact.... > > > I've not looked at these as warps because I've deemed contact to be > > > unavoidable anyway... > > > > > > Thats about all i have to say I guess.. in little over 24 hrs I'll be

on

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > my > > > way to Brazil and I can only hope you guys can make some good use of > > this... > > > Thank you for listening :-) > > > > > > Psst: if you got any questions - now's a good time to ask. > > > -- > > > ed_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Gentlemen, I had submitted my car file some time ago intending to participate in the RASCAR races, but just never got the chance to do it due to moving into a new home and being swamped with "honey do" lists :-) Therefore, you can certainly take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, or ignore it all together, but I'm going to say it anyway. First of all I definitely think you need some rules, and IMHO, in addition to the standard ones, No racing back to the yellow is one that should be included. - This just seems so elementary to me. If there's a yellow flag, that means there is trouble on the track somewhere. If you're racing back to the yellow, you stand a good chance of plowing into that trouble. If, on the other hand, everyone just tries to hold their current position, and begins to gradually slow down, your chances of seeing and avoiding a problem are increased. Points - I would recommend running for points, and with a predetermined schedule, preferably based on the real WC schedule so that everyone has done at least some practicing. The big plus on running for points is that most drivers are less likely to take borderline foolish chances if they are running for overall season points. Strikes - If a driver screws up, then he should be issued a strike. After a certain number of strikes, then points should be deducted, followed by possible race suspensions, and then expulsion from the league. Not to toot my own horn, because it has little to do with me, and everything to do with the members, but I have been directing a league on Saturday mornings going on 3 years now. In that time I've only had to remove two drivers, one because his skill just wasn't up to par with the majority of the other drivers, and the other one was due to a verbal abuse situation. We have a wide range of driver skills, all the way from some very fast drivers that are competing in Nim's VRW series, all the way down to slowpokes like me. I am also a long time member of Tim Wortman's NASS online league, and have learned from he and Scott Troxler just what it means to be a part of a well managed league, and still have a lot of fun racing and making good friends. I personally really think you gentlemen have a good group of drivers here in RASCAR, and think things would only improve with a little more structure and discipline. Okay, I've said my piece. Excuse me while I put on my flame retardant suit :-) Bob "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <txI%8.2481$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim"<edwins[ > REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> writes: > > >First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I wantanyone > >to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very thankful > >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take partin > >them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par withthe > >likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great lenghtsto

Quoted text (10 lines)

> >lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be the fastest > >driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-) > > Thanks for the kind words. > > > >RASCAR - STATISTICS: > > > >- During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps > >- Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of

all

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >the laps. > >- We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged 10 > >green laps between each yellow. > >- Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 > >- Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > > > > > >I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a

incident > >as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingincontrol - > >that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident pointbefore > >the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X' spun > >and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit onecar - > >regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down thetrack - > >that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2others - > >that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident..But > >if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 singleincidents....

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >get it? > >Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then > >collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > > > >Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > > > >- Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) > > Way too many. As John(and others) said, maybe we SHOULD eliminate racing

back

Quoted text (7 lines)

> to yellow. > > >- Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37 (6) > > Now this is ridiculous. Even though I've done it once, I *still* say it's > stupid to have an incident under caution. The 2 main causes of this are > probably (1)someone futzing around through the function screen

keys(figuring > pit strategy, etc. and (2)the accordion effect as people can't maintaineven

Quoted text (8 lines)

> seperation. I don't know how to solve #1. Some people don't have enough > buttons on their wheel, and the keyboard is awkward to reach. That's what > caused *my* fuckup... :-( > If people would STFU during cautions, #2 shouldn't happen as often. Quit > chatting, and you won't be varying your speed all over the place. > > >- Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17 (6) > >- Accidents caused by warping: 2

(9) > >- Accidents involving a single car: 42 > > Practice. But, I've heard that the car gets VERY loose after you tear upthe > rear of it. Some of those single incidents may be cause by existingdamage.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > >- Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 > >- Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) > > Not much you can do about these that I can easily think of... I wonder if > other leagues keep stats on their incidents? > Good grief, Man - don't you have a life?!? :-) > I certainly wouldn't have had the patience to go through all this.

Thanks!

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Sorry this is so late, I have been having problems... "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message news:txI%8.2481$[email hidden]... > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with > regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put the facts > straight before I go away.... I don't think you've ruined anything. On the contrary, you've got folks talking about what they want out of the races, which is good. Talk is always good, even if folks wind up getting their panties in a wad over stuff. Heck, I see John Simmons has even volunteered another race recap... proves time heals all wounds. > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes Ican > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new or to > understand why it went wrong..... I'd like to say I do this, but I can't. I do almost always watch the replays of incidents I was involved in, unless it was something obvious. Sometimes I stick around and watch the faster drivers if I go out for some reason. You can usually learn something about how different lines can affect exit speeds, lap times, etc. > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays - (although I > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we canmake

Quoted text (7 lines)

> this work without much work at all. What is needed though is that we go > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch shouldnt > be a problem for drivers anyway... > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely... > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to do

is > ask... I don't see how this is really any different from what you have now, other than it is additional work somebody would have to do. > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can jointhe > races or more importantly - who can't! Again, it's just more work, and you might as well form a league - however informal. One thing that you mentioned that probably would help would be for somebody (preferably more than one somebody) to be the boss. I have a slightly different take on it, though. This person should "just" be a boss, and not actively race. This person would act as "the RASCAR officials". Assuming the group can agree on a basic set of rules (or Eldred mandates them, I suppose), this person(s) would be charged with making sure nobody breaks the rules, issues warnings, corrective action, etc. At various points during practice and warmup, the short list of rules would be read. Drivers would then ignore them at their own peril. Now this person has a lot of responsibility, and let's face it, doing something like this is not fun, is a whole lot like work, and leaves you open for all kinds of BS criticism and even retribution. I suggest the core group of racers take on this responsibility and then rotate the job. If some in the RAS crowd are really serious about wanting/needing reform, they should be willing to make this occasional sacrifice to see that things improve. You could dispense with all the trouble of a list by having some active policing going on. Somebody who repeatedly "just doesn't get it" should be called on the carpet for it and subjected to some good ol' negative reinforcement by the group. I dont really think there will be very much of that. I dont get to race with you guys as often as I would like, but I think everyone here is basically after the same things: friendly atmosphere, good competition, and a low-key approach. The problem areas you point out are not suprising. I am amazed that you had the time and willingness to collect all this objective data. Maybe in NR2003, it will all be generated for us automatically. Yeah, right! I am a big fan of not racing back to caution. If there is trouble ANYWHERE on the track, every drivers first and only priority should be not making it worse. It is as simple as just stop racing for position. You don't have to (and probably shouldn't) slow up very much until the s/f line. Any place else is just potential confusion. Just stop trying to pass the car in front, stop trying to block the car behind and watch out for trouble. Give and take. Then, when you get to the s/f line, just lift and let the car slow naturally. And watch out for trouble. Towards the end of the race, this gets harder and harder to do willingly! It really is a personal thing, how much risk for how much reward. Personally, I would probably stop trying to pass (unless it is for a win) and concentrate on making my car VERY WIDE to any who might be trying to get by. To each his own, though. In terms of restarts, I am not sure how moving the s/f line to the back stretch is going to solve much of anything. You have to start racing somewhere, and the s/f line is as good a place as any. I think the real challenge is to make people practice pacing and restarts and running in traffic with as much effort as they put into hotlapping and building setups. The relative low number of these in coparison to total laps run suggest it really isn't as big an issue as the racing back. But, I suppose the potential repurcussions might be higher, though you don't give any data to support this either way. The number of incidents while pacing is just rediculous. I mean, shit, guys, is it really that hard? One is too many. Warp: what can you say? Just remember to give some room. If you don't and it bites you it is your own fault. Most of us are adult enough to bail if people complain that we are warping too much. Self spins: we all do it. Is to be expected. Move on. Learn. One thing that I encourage everyone to do is learn how to wreck. If you spin out, lock up the brakes. Your car will at least then go in a predictable direction for the folks behind you. Then, when you come to a halt, do everyone a favor and either sit stationary until the entire field has been collected under caution, or else call a tow truck if it looks like the yellow won't come out. If you blow any tires, call a tow truck. If you're in the groove, you might consider driving to the apron if you can do so very easily and without spinning back onto the track. If you can then drive on safely, make a courtesy call to the pits to get repaired and replace your flat-spotted tires. Maybe I am opening another can of worms here, but I think it is something to think (and hopefully talk) about. More give and take. Shit, I can be long winded, too. I hope you have fun in Brazil. Thanks for all your input so far. Gerald

We aren't a League :) -Larry "Bob G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gb509.5245$[email hidden]... > Gentlemen, > > I had submitted my car file some time ago intending to participate in the > RASCAR races, but just never got the chance to do it due to moving into a > new home and being swamped with "honey do" lists :-) Therefore, you can > certainly take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, or ignore itall > together, but I'm going to say it anyway. > > First of all I definitely think you need some rules, and IMHO, in addition > to the standard ones, No racing back to the yellow is one that should be > included. - This just seems so elementary to me. If there's a yellowflag, > that means there is trouble on the track somewhere. If you're racing back > to the yellow, you stand a good chance of plowing into that trouble. If,on > the other hand, everyone just tries to hold their current position, and > begins to gradually slow down, your chances of seeing and avoiding aproblem > are increased. > > Points - I would recommend running for points, and with a predetermined > schedule, preferably based on the real WC schedule so that everyone hasdone > at least some practicing. The big plus on running for points is that most > drivers are less likely to take borderline foolish chances if they are > running for overall season points. > > Strikes - If a driver screws up, then he should be issued a strike. Aftera > certain number of strikes, then points should be deducted, followed by > possible race suspensions, and then expulsion from the league. > > Not to toot my own horn, because it has little to do with me, andeverything

Quoted text (9 lines)

> to do with the members, but I have been directing a league on Saturday > mornings going on 3 years now. In that time I've only had to remove two > drivers, one because his skill just wasn't up to par with the majority of > the other drivers, and the other one was due to a verbal abuse situation. > We have a wide range of driver skills, all the way from some very fast > drivers that are competing in Nim's VRW series, all the way down to > slowpokes like me. > > I am also a long time member of Tim Wortman's NASS online league, and

have > learned from he and Scott Troxler just what it means to be a part of awell > managed league, and still have a lot of fun racing and making goodfriends. > > I personally really think you gentlemen have a good group of drivers herein > RASCAR, and think things would only improve with a little more structureand > discipline. > > Okay, I've said my piece. Excuse me while I put on my flame retardantsuit

Quoted text (14 lines)

> :-) > > Bob > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <txI%8.2481$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" > <edwins[ > > REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> writes: > > > > >First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want > anyone > > >to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very

thankful > > >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to takepart

Quoted text (18 lines)

> in > > >them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with > the > > >likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts > to > > >lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be the fastest > > >driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-) > > > > Thanks for the kind words. > > > > > > >RASCAR - STATISTICS: > > > > > >- During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps > > >- Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of > all > > >the laps. > > >- We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged

10

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > >green laps between each yellow. > > >- Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 > > >- Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > > > > > > > > > >I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a > incident > > >as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin > control - > > >that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point > before > > >the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X'

spun

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > >and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit one > car - > > >regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the > track - > > >that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2 > others - > > >that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident.. > But > > >if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single > incidents.... > > >get it? > > >Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then > > >collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > > > > > >Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > > > > > >- Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) > > > > Way too many. As John(and others) said, maybe we SHOULD eliminate

racing > back > > to yellow. > > > > >- Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37(6) > > > > Now this is ridiculous. Even though I've done it once, I *still* sayit's > > stupid to have an incident under caution. The 2 main causes of this are > > probably (1)someone futzing around through the function screen > keys(figuring > > pit strategy, etc. and (2)the accordion effect as people can't maintain > even > > seperation. I don't know how to solve #1. Some people don't haveenough > > buttons on their wheel, and the keyboard is awkward to reach. That'swhat > > caused *my* fuckup... :-( > > If people would STFU during cautions, #2 shouldn't happen as often.Quit > > chatting, and you won't be varying your speed all over the place. > > > > >- Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17(6) > > >- Accidents caused by warping: 2 > (9) > > >- Accidents involving a single car: 42 > > > > Practice. But, I've heard that the car gets VERY loose after you tearup

Quoted text (8 lines)

> the > > rear of it. Some of those single incidents may be cause by existing > damage. > > > > >- Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 > > >- Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) > > > > Not much you can do about these that I can easily think of... I wonder

if

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > other leagues keep stats on their incidents? > > Good grief, Man - don't you have a life?!? :-) > > I certainly wouldn't have had the patience to go through all this. > Thanks! > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

No Problem :) -Larry "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EF109.37864$uh7.5528@sccrnsc03...

Quoted text (18 lines)

> Ah, good point, Larry. I am referring to "reading about them"....in this > newsgroup.....problems that is. > > Sorry for not making that clearer. > > TP > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:12S%8.132812$%%[email hidden]... > > Tom, > > > > Have you actually RUN in our Races? > > > > What are all these 'problems' you are talking about that don't make them > > fun? > > > > I've been in half a dozen races or so, and I have NO complaints about

ANY

Quoted text (10 lines)

> of > > them. > > > > -Larry > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:PnJ%8.633265$352.134798@sccrnsc02... > > > Ed... > > > > > > We don't often agree....but on this matter I would be 100% in

agreement

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > with > > > you. > > > > > > I don't even run in the RASCAR events, but I would thank you for the > > obvious > > > extensive work you have taken to review race replays....heck, even to > > write > > > the long and well thought out post you made tonight. I'm also sure

it > > was > > > not totally an easy post for you to write....and you probably have > better > > > things to do just before leaving for a long trip. > > > > > > Racing of any kind, without even a simple set of rules....is notracing, > > > IMHO. Its just screwing around. Even..."Friday Night Destruction > Derby" > > > races.....mayhem as they are.....have rules. > > > > > > The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of yourbunch. > > You > > > can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if youlet > > > anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing inN2K2. > > > Heck....some kid who wonders into RAS, just bought the "game" > > > yesterday....could enter (and ruin) a race. It is also a polite wayto

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > "kick somebody out"....and keep them out.....of future events. > > > > > > The proponents say, "We just want fun races....without all the hassles > of > > > league racing rules." Well, nothing in my mind is fun about what you > guys > > > have been doing on Saturdays. I can race in pickup racing on the

Sierra

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > servers if that's what I look for in "fun" racing. I don't. And, I > don't > > > think most of the better/experienced drivers in this community enjoy > that > > > kind of racing either. But, you want to have events where experienced > and > > > inexperienced sim racers can mingle on the track in > competition.....learn > > > some stuff....without the pressure of season points championships and

so

Quoted text (35 lines)

> > > forth.....why does having a simple set of rules preclude that? It > > > doesn't....obviously. > > > > > > Have a good trip. Hope this works out for you guys. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message > > > news:txI%8.2481$[email hidden]... > > > > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It > > took > > > me > > > > quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look > thru > > > > it.... you might learn something! :-) > > > > > > > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" > with > > > > regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put the > facts > > > > straight before I go away.... > > > > > > > > First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want > > anyone > > > > to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very > > thankful > > > > that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take > > part > > > in > > > > them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par

with

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > the > > > > likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to great > lenghts > > to > > > > lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be the > fastest > > > > driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope > :-) > > > > > > > > I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans

on > > > > putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this. Like > Eldred > > > > stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new.... Infact I wrote those > > > > [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time -I've > > not > > > > been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion... Itold

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > Eldred > > > > I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all > > > surfaced > > > > now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that > > > > 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story. > > > > > > > > Okey... let's move on... > > > > > > > > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download

the > > > > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in...sometimes > I > > > can > > > > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new > or > > to > > > > understand why it went wrong..... Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe4

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > hours > > > > ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the > > > highlights > > > > from the race.... so that those with lesser connections might be > able > > to > > > > see some of the serverside too.. > > > > I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from > watching > > > > these.... but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet... Okey so > I've > > > > only posted two races (I got Pocono here too - but never posted

it) -

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > but > > > > nonetheless - there's atleast a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that > > deserve > > > a > > > > remark or two.. > > > > > > > > Anyway, back to this rulebook business..... [here he go again!] :-) > > > > It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set > rules > > > and > > > > how simply we could enforce them.... > > > > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays - > (although > > I > > > > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we > can > > > make > > > > this work without much work at all. What is needed though is that

we > go > > > > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch > > shouldnt > > > > be a problem for drivers anyway... > > > > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll findthat > > > > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less > regularely... > > > > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he hasto

Quoted text (25 lines)

> do > > > is > > > > ask... > > > > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can > join > > > the > > > > races or more importantly - who can't! > > > > > > > > What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled - > by > > > > everyone! > > > > So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to > tell > > > him > > > > or tell *on* him... Meaning that if some jump the start or pass > "under > > > > yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First > tim > > e > > > > will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could > then > > > > either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow.... > > should > > > he > > > > still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If

we

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > to > > > > make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so > > easily... > > > > > > > > Penalties might sound harsh..... but IMO they are needed to get the > > > message > > > > thru to people.. The whole point here is to make people aware or

the > > > rules > > > > and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver whohas > > > > "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another....if > > he > > > > does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face > the > > > > penalty for it... > > > > The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and Iam

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > sure > > > > we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that > > > 'driver > > > > X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge > what > > > kind > > > > of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats

needed. > > The > > > > bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stickby > > the > > > > rules... He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but hecan > > > just > > > > as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any > > penalties > > > or > > > > warnings - problem solved! It really should not be necessary tokick > or > > > ban > > > > any drivers at all..... The sole point here is to make driversaware

Quoted text (17 lines)

> of > > > the > > > > rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it.... > Why > > > is > > > > that?, you say - ? > > > > > > > > Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more > then > > 1 > > > > driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell.... > Should > > > he > > > > decide not to tell - then it's his loss.... > > > > > > > > So what types of rules do we need then?????? > > > > Well... I've made my suggestions heard..... although not all of

'em > > are > > > > equally important to me.... Some of you seem to think of everyreason

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > > there > > > > possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing - > > > instead > > > > of at least be willing to give it a try.... It can't hurt to try - > can > > > > it??? > > > > > > > > Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought > > I've > > > > never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the > exception > > of > > > > at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not.... > > > > Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do.... But > atleast > > > > turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is

along

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > side > > > > you.... > > > > > > > > What rules we should have is up to us all... all I'm interrested in > is > > > > better - cleaner and more "safe" racing... I want to have fun and > enjoy > > > the > > > > racing - just like everyone else... > > > > > > > > I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight on > starts > > > and > > > > I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow.... - those are > my > > > > views... what get's decided is up to you guys now... I'm leaving

for

Quoted text (29 lines)

> > > > Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch > > probably > > > > means that by the time I get back - something has been decided... > > either > > > by > > > > you or by Eldred. > > > > > > > > Before I go though.... I would like offer some insight to our > > > > "problem-areas"... > > > > Over the last few days - I've spendt 10+ hours or so reviewing the > > server > > > > replays from the last 12 RASCAR races..... and seeing that the > > Americans > > > > are so fond of statistics - I thought I might share this with you > > guys... > > > > I've gathered this information from raced we run on Eldred server... > > Only > > > > oval races with yellows on has been reviewed so this exclude Sears, > The > > > Glen > > > > and the last race at Pocono... I hope this information will be an > > > eyeopener > > > > for some of you guys and that it will be of help when deciding upon > > whats > > > > needed to be done... As you see - things are not as good as some > might > > > > think.. IMO. > > > > > > > > As with all things there's probably a sampling error of a few

precent

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > > here... but I think and hope it's not more than 3-5% > > > > > > > > RASCAR - STATISTICS: > > > > > > > > - During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps > > > > - Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% > of > > > all > > > > the laps. > > > > - We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only

averaged

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > 10 > > > > green laps between each yellow. > > > > - Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 > > > > - Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > > > > > > > > I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a > > incident > > > > as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin > > > control - > > > > that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point > > before > > > > the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X' > > spun > > > > and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit

one

Quoted text (23 lines)

> > > car - > > > > regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the > > > track - > > > > that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2 > > > others - > > > > that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single > incident.. > > > But > > > > if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single > > > incidents.... > > > > get it? > > > > Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft and > then > > > > collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > > > > > > > > Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > > > > > > > > - Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) > > > > - Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37 > (6) > > > > - Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17 > > (6) > > > > - Accidents caused by warping:

2

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > (9) > > > > - Accidents involving a single car: > 42 > > > > - Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 > > > > - Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) > > > > > > > > Explaination: > > > > Number in brackets ( ) is additional incidents that I've classified

as > > > > 'possible incidents' meaning they are a bit in the twiglightzone... > > > > > > > > Racing back to the yellow was defined as being from the point whenthe > > > > yellows were lit thru to Turn 1 after crossing the S/F line / taking > the > > > > flag. I've also tried to use some sense while judging who actuallyhad > a > > > > chance of avoiding being collected or involved in the accidentcausing

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > the > > > > yellow too.. > > > > > > > > Incidents occuring on pacelaps include the distance from the pacecar > > > collect > > > > the field thru to the green flag being dropped.. Everything from an > > small > > > > 'bump' to cars being wrecked badly is counted for here... Deliberate > > bumps > > > > have been dropped. > > > > > > > > *Accidents* on starts/restarts is judge differently - these are just > > > single > > > > occuraces of an accident on the start - i.e we had an accident on 17 > > > > starts/restarts! Start/restart is defined as from the Green drops

thru

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > to > > > > the B.S... Numbers in brackets include accidents occuring on the > first > > > > green lap too.... (i.e accidents occuring beyond the B.S) > > > > > > > > Singlecar accidents = a single car spinning out without "help" - > read - > > > > driver error. > > > > > > > > "Other causes" = stuff like Dave's freeze problems and more... > > > > > > > > Cars being collected = cars being collected by *spinning* cars/ cars > out > > > of > > > > control.... > > > > > > > > Warp... I could only find 2 incidents that I can clearly identify

as

Quoted text (11 lines)

> a > > > > warp... althought in many cases things might have looked differnt on > the > > > > client side... I saw a bunch of "50cm. warps" - meaning cars being > > less > > > > than 50cm from eachother and then spinning out without any true > > > contact.... > > > > I've not looked at these as warps because I've deemed contact to be > > > > unavoidable anyway... > > > > > > > > Thats about all i have to say I guess.. in little over 24 hrs I'll

be

Quoted text (18 lines)

> on > > > my > > > > way to Brazil and I can only hope you guys can make some good use of > > > this... > > > > Thank you for listening :-) > > > > > > > > Psst: if you got any questions - now's a good time to ask. > > > > -- > > > > ed_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess... We are NOT racing tomorrow. That is the only thing that has come out of this. I could care less about rules. I will follow whatever is posted. It doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on Saturdays, and that is not going to happen tomorrow. That's what it all boils down to. Now, before all this started if Eldred would have posted on Sunday that he needs to take a break, and there won't be any races for a few weeks, I'd say Good for you Eldred! Thanks for your efforts, and you deserve the time off! But that's not the way this came about. But he still deserves thanks and a break :) -Larry "Gerald Moore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Y7d09.25251$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> Sorry this is so late, I have been having problems... > > > "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message > news:txI%8.2481$[email hidden]... > > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with > > regards RASCAR here lately.... ;-) I think it's time to put the facts > > straight before I go away.... > > I don't think you've ruined anything. On the contrary, you've got folks > talking about what they want out of the races, which is good. Talk is > always good, even if folks wind up getting their panties in a wad over > stuff. Heck, I see John Simmons has even volunteered another race

recap... > proves time heals all wounds. > > > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the > > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes I > can > > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new orto

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > understand why it went wrong..... > > I'd like to say I do this, but I can't. I do almost always watch the > replays of incidents I was involved in, unless it was something obvious. > Sometimes I stick around and watch the faster drivers if I go out for some > reason. You can usually learn something about how different lines can > affect exit speeds, lap times, etc. > > > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays - (although

I > > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we can > make > > this work without much work at all. What is needed though is that we go > > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilchshouldnt

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > be a problem for drivers anyway... > > > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that > > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely... > > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to do > is > > ask... > > I don't see how this is really any different from what you have now, other > than it is additional work somebody would have to do. > > > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can join > the > > races or more importantly - who can't! > > Again, it's just more work, and you might as well form a league - however > informal. > > One thing that you mentioned that probably would help would be for

somebody > (preferably more than one somebody) to be the boss. I have a slightly > different take on it, though. This person should "just" be a boss, andnot > actively race. This person would act as "the RASCAR officials". Assuming > the group can agree on a basic set of rules (or Eldred mandates them, I > suppose), this person(s) would be charged with making sure nobody breaksthe

Quoted text (10 lines)

> rules, issues warnings, corrective action, etc. At various points during > practice and warmup, the short list of rules would be read. Drivers would > then ignore them at their own peril. > > Now this person has a lot of responsibility, and let's face it, doing > something like this is not fun, is a whole lot like work, and leaves you > open for all kinds of BS criticism and even retribution. I suggest the > core group of racers take on this responsibility and then rotate the job. > If some in the RAS crowd are really serious about wanting/needing reform, > they should be willing to make this occasional sacrifice to see that

things > improve. > > You could dispense with all the trouble of a list by having some active > policing going on. Somebody who repeatedly "just doesn't get it" shouldbe > called on the carpet for it and subjected to some good ol' negative > reinforcement by the group. I dont really think there will be very muchof > that. > > I dont get to race with you guys as often as I would like, but I think > everyone here is basically after the same things: friendly atmosphere,good > competition, and a low-key approach. > > The problem areas you point out are not suprising. I am amazed that youhad > the time and willingness to collect all this objective data. Maybe in > NR2003, it will all be generated for us automatically. Yeah, right! > > I am a big fan of not racing back to caution. If there is troubleANYWHERE > on the track, every drivers first and only priority should be not makingit > worse. It is as simple as just stop racing for position. You don't haveto > (and probably shouldn't) slow up very much until the s/f line. Any place > else is just potential confusion. Just stop trying to pass the car in > front, stop trying to block the car behind and watch out for trouble.Give

Quoted text (7 lines)

> and take. Then, when you get to the s/f line, just lift and let the car > slow naturally. And watch out for trouble. > > Towards the end of the race, this gets harder and harder to do willingly! > It really is a personal thing, how much risk for how much reward. > Personally, I would probably stop trying to pass (unless it is for a win) > and concentrate on making my car VERY WIDE to any who might be trying to

get

Quoted text (7 lines)

> by. To each his own, though. > > In terms of restarts, I am not sure how moving the s/f line to the back > stretch is going to solve much of anything. You have to start racing > somewhere, and the s/f line is as good a place as any. I think the real > challenge is to make people practice pacing and restarts and running in > traffic with as much effort as they put into hotlapping and building

setups.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> The relative low number of these in coparison to total laps run suggest it > really isn't as big an issue as the racing back. But, I suppose the > potential repurcussions might be higher, though you don't give any data to > support this either way. > > The number of incidents while pacing is just rediculous. I mean, shit, > guys, is it really that hard? One is too many. > > Warp: what can you say? Just remember to give some room. If you don't

and

Quoted text (10 lines)

> it bites you it is your own fault. Most of us are adult enough to bail if > people complain that we are warping too much. > > Self spins: we all do it. Is to be expected. Move on. Learn. > > One thing that I encourage everyone to do is learn how to wreck. If you > spin out, lock up the brakes. Your car will at least then go in a > predictable direction for the folks behind you. Then, when you come to a > halt, do everyone a favor and either sit stationary until the entire field > has been collected under caution, or else call a tow truck if it looks

like > the yellow won't come out. If you blow any tires, call a tow truck. If > you're in the groove, you might consider driving to the apron if you cando > so very easily and without spinning back onto the track. If you can then > drive on safely, make a courtesy call to the pits to get repaired and > replace your flat-spotted tires. Maybe I am opening another can of worms > here, but I think it is something to think (and hopefully talk) about.More > give and take. > > Shit, I can be long winded, too. I hope you have fun in Brazil. Thanksfor > all your input so far. > > Gerald > > >

"Larry" wrote...

Quoted text (22 lines)

> I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess... > > We are NOT racing tomorrow. > > That is the only thing that has come out of this. > I could care less about rules. I will follow > whatever is posted. It doesn't matter to me. > > What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on > Saturdays, and that is not going to happen tomorrow. > > That's what it all boils down to. > > Now, before all this started if Eldred would have > posted on Sunday that he needs to take a break, and > there won't be any races for a few weeks, I'd say > Good for you Eldred! Thanks for your efforts, and > you deserve the time off! > > But that's not the way this came about. > > But he still deserves thanks and a break :)

Let's not jump to conclusions here... there's always more than one way to skin a cat. RASCAR is a diverse group, which might be privy to more resources than we realise at the moment. Perhaps someone has access to a league server, perhaps we can take control of the open RAS server (or a Papy one) or, if push comes to shove, someone on cable or ASDL can host a couple drivers. I say let's meet regardless and meanwhile have a look around at our options. I agree we run the risk of not having a server or having party poopers joining in, but if you're passionate enough about racing I'm sure that's a risk worth taking. Jan. =---

Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nWe09.138654$%%[email hidden]... > I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess... > > We are NOT racing tomorrow. > > That is the only thing that has come out of this. I couldcare less about > rules. I will follow whatever is posted. It doesn't matterto me. > > What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on Saturdays,and that is not > going to happen tomorrow. > > That's what it all boils down to. > > Now, before all this started if Eldred would have posted onSunday that he > needs to take a break, and there won't be any races for a fewweeks, I'd say > Good for you Eldred! Thanks for your efforts, and you deservethe time off! > > But that's not the way this came about. > > But he still deserves thanks and a break :) > > -Larry Larry, I have to agree, whatever the decision is about rules, or lack of them, is OK by me. Problem seems to be that an agreement cannot be reached by a majority, & Eldred really doesn't want to be the "cop" (I don't blame him, I wouldn't want it either), so I nominate John for the job. ;o) He has done as much, if not more, as Eldred, Phil, & Ed have done, & if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place. John & Dave seem to be the ones who show up most often, so maybe they should get together w/ Eldred & just throw together some rules, allow John to be the "cop" (he seems to be the only person who will do it), & get back to racing. Just my 2c worth. Oh, I will be try to be at the reg chat room around 4 est, so if anyone shows up, maybe we can use the ras server & race a little. With my luck, we'll choose a track I haven't practiced for a while... oh well. ;o) Brian

"B.Farmer" wrote... > <snip> if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place. ahem... <cough> Jan. =---

My point exactly. Maybe it's time. <VBG> "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4Me09.138562$%%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> We aren't a League :) > > -Larry > > "Bob G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:gb509.5245$[email hidden]... > > Gentlemen, > > > > I had submitted my car file some time ago intending to participate in

the > > RASCAR races, but just never got the chance to do it due to moving intoa > > new home and being swamped with "honey do" lists :-) Therefore, you can > > certainly take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, or ignore it > all > > together, but I'm going to say it anyway. > > > > First of all I definitely think you need some rules, and IMHO, inaddition > > to the standard ones, No racing back to the yellow is one that should be > > included. - This just seems so elementary to me. If there's a yellow > flag, > > that means there is trouble on the track somewhere. If you're racingback > > to the yellow, you stand a good chance of plowing into that trouble.If,

Quoted text (10 lines)

> on > > the other hand, everyone just tries to hold their current position, and > > begins to gradually slow down, your chances of seeing and avoiding a > problem > > are increased. > > > > Points - I would recommend running for points, and with a predetermined > > schedule, preferably based on the real WC schedule so that everyone has > done > > at least some practicing. The big plus on running for points is that

most > > drivers are less likely to take borderline foolish chances if they are > > running for overall season points. > > > > Strikes - If a driver screws up, then he should be issued a strike.After

Quoted text (9 lines)

> a > > certain number of strikes, then points should be deducted, followed by > > possible race suspensions, and then expulsion from the league. > > > > Not to toot my own horn, because it has little to do with me, and > everything > > to do with the members, but I have been directing a league on Saturday > > mornings going on 3 years now. In that time I've only had to remove two > > drivers, one because his skill just wasn't up to par with the majority

of > > the other drivers, and the other one was due to a verbal abusesituation.

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > We have a wide range of driver skills, all the way from some very fast > > drivers that are competing in Nim's VRW series, all the way down to > > slowpokes like me. > > > > I am also a long time member of Tim Wortman's NASS online league, and > have > > learned from he and Scott Troxler just what it means to be a part of a > well > > managed league, and still have a lot of fun racing and making good > friends. > > > > I personally really think you gentlemen have a good group of drivers

here

Quoted text (26 lines)

> in > > RASCAR, and think things would only improve with a little more structure > and > > discipline. > > > > Okay, I've said my piece. Excuse me while I put on my flame retardant > suit > > :-) > > > > Bob > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <txI%8.2481$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" > > <edwins[ > > > REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> writes: > > > > > > >First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want > > anyone > > > >to "work" any harder / more than they allready are... I am very > thankful > > > >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take > part > > in > > > >them. Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par

with > > the > > > >likes of Rob Walker. A very friendly person that goes to greatlenghts > > to > > > >lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it. He might not be thefastest > > > >driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope:-)

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > > > > Thanks for the kind words. > > > > > > > > > >RASCAR - STATISTICS: > > > > > > > >- During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps > > > >- Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7%

of > > all > > > >the laps. > > > >- We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we onlyaveraged

Quoted text (16 lines)

> 10 > > > >green laps between each yellow. > > > >- Average no. of yellows pr. race : 8.83 > > > >- Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race: 32.83 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a > > incident > > > >as follows: when a car hit another car of object before regaingin > > control - > > > >that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point > > before > > > >the driver regained control os the car.. Meaning that if 'driver X' > spun > > > >and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit

one > > car - > > > >regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the > > track - > > > >that would count as two seperate incident. Also - if 1 car hit 2 > > others - > > > >that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 singleincident.. > > But > > > >if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single > > incidents.... > > > >get it? > > > >Multiple "scores" is also possible - a car spining by itselft andthen

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > > >collection another driver, got "scored" for both.. > > > > > > > >Looking thru all the incidents I found the following... > > > > > > > >- Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80 (13) > > > > > > Way too many. As John(and others) said, maybe we SHOULD eliminate > racing > > back > > > to yellow. > > > > > > >- Incidents occuring during pace-laps : 37 > (6) > > > > > > Now this is ridiculous. Even though I've done it once, I *still* say > it's > > > stupid to have an incident under caution. The 2 main causes of this

are > > > probably (1)someone futzing around through the function screen > > keys(figuring > > > pit strategy, etc. and (2)the accordion effect as people can'tmaintain

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > even > > > seperation. I don't know how to solve #1. Some people don't have > enough > > > buttons on their wheel, and the keyboard is awkward to reach. That's > what > > > caused *my* fuckup... :-( > > > If people would STFU during cautions, #2 shouldn't happen as often. > Quit > > > chatting, and you won't be varying your speed all over the place. > > > > > > >- Accidents occuring on starts/restarts: 17 > (6) > > > >- Accidents caused by warping: 2 > > (9) > > > >- Accidents involving a single car:

42

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > > > > Practice. But, I've heard that the car gets VERY loose after you tear > up > > the > > > rear of it. Some of those single incidents may be cause by existing > > damage. > > > > > > >- Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze: 6 > > > >- Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] : 33 (3) > > > > > > Not much you can do about these that I can easily think of... I

wonder

Quoted text (16 lines)

> if > > > other leagues keep stats on their incidents? > > > Good grief, Man - don't you have a life?!? :-) > > > I certainly wouldn't have had the patience to go through all this. > > Thanks! > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

RAS server sounds good to me. -Larry "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:L5g09.5032$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (52 lines)

> Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nWe09.138654$%%[email hidden]... > > I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess... > > > > We are NOT racing tomorrow. > > > > That is the only thing that has come out of this. I could > care less about > > rules. I will follow whatever is posted. It doesn't matter > to me. > > > > What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on Saturdays, > and that is not > > going to happen tomorrow. > > > > That's what it all boils down to. > > > > Now, before all this started if Eldred would have posted on > Sunday that he > > needs to take a break, and there won't be any races for a few > weeks, I'd say > > Good for you Eldred! Thanks for your efforts, and you deserve > the time off! > > > > But that's not the way this came about. > > > > But he still deserves thanks and a break :) > > > > -Larry > > Larry, I have to agree, whatever the decision is about rules, or > lack of them, is OK by me. Problem seems to be that an > agreement cannot be reached by a majority, & Eldred really > doesn't want to be the "cop" (I don't blame him, I wouldn't want > it either), so I nominate John for the job. ;o) > He has done as much, if not more, as Eldred, Phil, & Ed have > done, & if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place. > John & Dave seem to be the ones who show up most often, so maybe > they should get together w/ Eldred & just throw together some > rules, allow John to be the "cop" (he seems to be the only > person who will do it), & get back to racing. > > Just my 2c worth. > > Oh, I will be try to be at the reg chat room around 4 est, so if > anyone shows up, maybe we can use the ras server & race a > little. With my luck, we'll choose a track I haven't practiced > for a while... oh well. ;o) > > Brian > >

Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2ag09.30337$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> "B.Farmer" wrote... > > <snip> if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place. > > ahem... <cough> > > Jan. > =---

Then again... maybe it was Jan's . ;o) Brian

I haven't seen that server up on Sierra now for the last couple of days. :-) Time to put a call out to jason. David G Fisher "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BUi09.140772$%%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (60 lines)

> RAS server sounds good to me. > > -Larry > > "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:L5g09.5032$[email hidden]... > > Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:nWe09.138654$%%[email hidden]... > > > I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess... > > > > > > We are NOT racing tomorrow. > > > > > > That is the only thing that has come out of this. I could > > care less about > > > rules. I will follow whatever is posted. It doesn't matter > > to me. > > > > > > What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on Saturdays, > > and that is not > > > going to happen tomorrow. > > > > > > That's what it all boils down to. > > > > > > Now, before all this started if Eldred would have posted on > > Sunday that he > > > needs to take a break, and there won't be any races for a few > > weeks, I'd say > > > Good for you Eldred! Thanks for your efforts, and you deserve > > the time off! > > > > > > But that's not the way this came about. > > > > > > But he still deserves thanks and a break :) > > > > > > -Larry > > > > Larry, I have to agree, whatever the decision is about rules, or > > lack of them, is OK by me. Problem seems to be that an > > agreement cannot be reached by a majority, & Eldred really > > doesn't want to be the "cop" (I don't blame him, I wouldn't want > > it either), so I nominate John for the job. ;o) > > He has done as much, if not more, as Eldred, Phil, & Ed have > > done, & if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place. > > John & Dave seem to be the ones who show up most often, so maybe > > they should get together w/ Eldred & just throw together some > > rules, allow John to be the "cop" (he seems to be the only > > person who will do it), & get back to racing. > > > > Just my 2c worth. > > > > Oh, I will be try to be at the reg chat room around 4 est, so if > > anyone shows up, maybe we can use the ras server & race a > > little. With my luck, we'll choose a track I haven't practiced > > for a while... oh well. ;o) > > > > Brian > > > > > >

Actually, I think I do get the credit/blame for planting the seed that started this mess. :-o I put the idea out and rented a server with a date/time set up for an r.a.s. race, but then Eldred offered to host if he could get a copy of the game. David G Fisher "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2ag09.30337$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> "B.Farmer" wrote... > > <snip> if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place. > > ahem... <cough> > > Jan. > =--- > >

In article <4Me09.138562$%%[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes: >We aren't a League :) Yes, we ARE. We just haven't RUN it like one. Blame me for the current disorganized nature of the competition. That *will* change in the future... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"David G Fisher" wrote...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Actually, I think I do get the credit/blame for > planting the seed that started this mess. :-o > > I put the idea out and rented a server with a > date/time set up for an r.a.s. race, but then > Eldred offered to host if he could get a copy > of the game.

True... share? ;-) Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yil09.30676$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> "David G Fisher" wrote... > > Actually, I think I do get the credit/blame for > > planting the seed that started this mess. :-o > > > > I put the idea out and rented a server with a > > date/time set up for an r.a.s. race, but then > > Eldred offered to host if he could get a copy > > of the game. > > True... share? ;-) > > Jan.

You, Eldred, John, and Phil have done a hell of a lot more than me. .01% of the blame is more than enough for me. :-) David G Fisher

In article <CDk09.302616$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >Actually, I think I do get the credit/blame for planting the seed that >started this mess. :-o > >I put the idea out and rented a server with a date/time set up for an r.a.s. >race, but then Eldred offered to host if he could get a copy of the game. Jan asked me when I was going to run full-length races for N2002 like I did for GPL. You offered to host because I declined - I didn't have the program at the time...:-) Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldred, since you run the thing you probably take a lot of the posts more personally than you should. I can't speak for everyone else, but I quite frankly did not find any problems with the current format. I honestly did not think there was a problem to be fixed. We show up, we race, sometimes we wreck and then we discuss the next week. Last time I checked they were still wrecking in the REAL NASCAR races. I don't really think it is all that disorganized. I always know what track is going to be run, I know when it is going to be run, and basically the same people show up every week. Results and replays are posted on the web, car numbers and files are assigned and distributed... hell it seems pretty damned organized to me. But I'm flexible, I'll go along with what everyone else wants to do. BTW, if Eldred's server is not going to be up this weekend (although I did not see the actual announcement I take from the discussion it is taking a vacation) all we have to do is get one of us to become boss of one of the Papy Open servers, set yellows on, 40% race, select a track that ISN'T Daytona or Dega and it will pretty much guarantee that no one but us will race (this is a joke, but not to far form the truth). Brian Oster On 26 Jul 2002 23:34:24 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

>In article <4Me09.138562$%%[email hidden]>, "Larry" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>We aren't a League :) > >Yes, we ARE. We just haven't RUN it like one. Blame me for the current >disorganized nature of the competition. That *will* change in the future... > >Eldred

"Brian Oster" <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Eldred, since you run the thing you probably take a lot of the posts > more personally than you should. I can't speak for everyone else, but > I quite frankly did not find any problems with the current format. I > honestly did not think there was a problem to be fixed. We show up, > we race, sometimes we wreck and then we discuss the next week. Last > time I checked they were still wrecking in the REAL NASCAR races. > > I don't really think it is all that disorganized. I always know what > track is going to be run, I know when it is going to be run, and > basically the same people show up every week. Results and replays are > posted on the web, car numbers and files are assigned and > distributed... hell it seems pretty damned organized to me.

That pretty much sums up how I've felt all along too.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> But I'm flexible, I'll go along with what everyone else wants to do. > > BTW, if Eldred's server is not going to be up this weekend (although I > did not see the actual announcement I take from the discussion it is > taking a vacation) all we have to do is get one of us to become boss > of one of the Papy Open servers, set yellows on, 40% race, select a > track that ISN'T Daytona or Dega and it will pretty much guarantee > that no one but us will race (this is a joke, but not to far form the > truth).

There seems to be a lot of servers that aren't being used at the time we race. Hopefully we can find one. We'll have to try and set the limit to equal whatever we have in the lobby before we join up. David G Fisher

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <CDk09.302616$[email hidden]>, "DavidG > Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Actually, I think I do get the credit/blame for planting the seed that > >started this mess. :-o > > > >I put the idea out and rented a server with a date/time set up for anr.a.s. > >race, but then Eldred offered to host if he could get a copy of the game. > > Jan asked me when I was going to run full-length races for N2002 like Idid for > GPL. You offered to host because I declined - I didn't have the program atthe > time...:-) It's come back to me now. The games been out a lot longer than I realized. I was very frustrated with pick up races in the first couple of weeks after getting the game and wanted to race familiar names here at r.a.s. People suggested different leagues. Jan suggested you might host some races. You said you didn't have the game yet and it still wasn't evev released in much of Europe. I got sick of the pick up races in the meantime and ended up renting a server and setting a date. You got the game that week and said, "save your money" and then came to the rescue for the next five months. :-) David G Fisher

How do one become a boss on the server? "Brian Oster" <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > BTW, if Eldred's server is not going to be up this weekend (although I > did not see the actual announcement I take from the discussion it is > taking a vacation) all we have to do is get one of us to become boss > of one of the Papy Open servers, set yellows on, 40% race, select a > track that ISN'T Daytona or Dega and it will pretty much guarantee > that no one but us will race (this is a joke, but not to far form the > truth). > > Brian Oster > >

I believe it is simply being the first one in, or the last one out, or in line when the other boss leaves. I have become boss several times, but I don't know any of the chat line commands that bosses can use so I usually leave and give the boss priveleges to someone else. BTW, does anyone know if there are any restrictions on the papy servers on the various race parameters such as length of race, length of practice, etc.. Brian Oster On Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:29:37 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (19 lines)

>How do one become a boss on the server? > >"Brian Oster" <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... > >> >> BTW, if Eldred's server is not going to be up this weekend (although I >> did not see the actual announcement I take from the discussion it is >> taking a vacation) all we have to do is get one of us to become boss >> of one of the Papy Open servers, set yellows on, 40% race, select a >> track that ISN'T Daytona or Dega and it will pretty much guarantee >> that no one but us will race (this is a joke, but not to far form the >> truth). >> >> Brian Oster >> >> > >

Carl Ribbegaardh <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ahtp60$vqgio$[email hidden]... > How do one become a boss on the server? > Be the 1st one on an *Open* server, & you're the boss. HTH, Brian

Brian Oster <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I believe it is simply being the first one in, or the last oneout, or > in line when the other boss leaves. I have become bossseveral times, > but I don't know any of the chat line commands that bosses canuse so > I usually leave and give the boss priveleges to someone else. > > BTW, does anyone know if there are any restrictions on thepapy > servers on the various race parameters such as length of race,length > of practice, etc.. > > Brian Oster > Oops, must be an echo in here... ;) Dunno 'bout restrictions on Papy's open servers, haven't tried, but the commands are in the "server.txt" file, & you can list them all with: !list_commands Brian (the other Brian, maybe just call me "Red"?) > On Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:29:37 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >How do one become a boss on the server? >

Brian Oster <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I believe it is simply being the first one in, or the last one out, or > in line when the other boss leaves. I have become boss several times, > but I don't know any of the chat line commands that bosses can use so > I usually leave and give the boss priveleges to someone else. > > BTW, does anyone know if there are any restrictions on the papy > servers on the various race parameters such as length of race, length > of practice, etc.. >

Seems Papy's open servers are rated 6-10, so that's gonna leave some of us (me) out 'cause I'm pretty sure Papy won't be allowing any1 to change that. :( Brian

In article <dJx09.6738$[email hidden]>, "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> writes: >Brian (the other Brian, maybe just call me "Red"?) Hey Red - you any relation to Dale or Nolan? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Tqy09.6874$[email hidden]>, "B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> writes: >Seems Papy's open servers are rated 6-10, so that's gonna leave some of >us (me) out 'cause I'm pretty sure Papy won't be allowing any1 to change >that. :( 6?!? Man, I can't even join a *4* rated race. Even though my LPI is over 110, I rarely BEAT anyone, so my rating stays low. I think it's 3 on SW, and 1 on SS. I think they need to take LPI into consideration, too. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> In article <Tqy09.6874$[email hidden]>, "B.Farmer" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Seems Papy's open servers are rated 6-10, so that's gonna leave some of > >us (me) out 'cause I'm pretty sure Papy won't be allowing any1 to change > >that. :( > > 6?!? Man, I can't even join a *4* rated race. Even though my LPI is over 110, > I rarely BEAT anyone, so my rating stays low. I think it's 3 on SW, and 1 on > SS. I think they need to take LPI into consideration, too. > > Eldred >

They currently allow LPI restrict races, but you also have to have the required ratings. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Well, that's a definite shift in the wind :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> In article <4Me09.138562$%%[email hidden]>, "Larry" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >We aren't a League :) > > Yes, we ARE. We just haven't RUN it like one. Blame me for the current > disorganized nature of the competition. That *will* change in the

future...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>> 6?!? Man, I can't even join a *4* rated race. Even though my LPI is over >110, >> I rarely BEAT anyone, so my rating stays low. I think it's 3 on SW, and 1 >on >> SS. I think they need to take LPI into consideration, too. >> >> Eldred >> > >They currently allow LPI restrict races, but you also have to have the >required ratings.

I'm just saying, my LPI should give me SOME consideration. Even if I never crash, but I finish last in every race I ever run, I *still* can't get into those races. That's f'ked up... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett My .sig file is in the shop for repairs... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.