The new Hockenheim has lost its soul

Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript layout that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some pencil pusher somewhere fucked this up royally by trying to be all things to everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and memories well alone and this was one of them..... Here's to you Jim. Ian.

idav <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ai4ah0$55k$[email hidden]... > Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript layout > that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some > pencil pusher somewhere fucked this up royally by trying to be all things to > everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and > memories well alone and this was one of them..... Ooh, I dunno - there were some great braking scraps into what should have been called the Adelaide hairpin. Braking is about the only place you can overtake in F1 these days, so well done whoever decided to include that! Jonny

I never thought of Hockenheim as a track with soul. It used to be just straights and chicanes with a little twisty part at the end. What's so great about that? Not much elevation change, boring design, some good drafting and overtaking oppurtunities though. Thanks, Alex "idav" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ai4ah0$55k$[email hidden]... > Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descriptlayout > that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some > pencil pusher somewhere fucked this up royally by trying to be all thingsto

Quoted text (11 lines)

> everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and > memories well alone and this was one of them..... > > Here's to you Jim. > > Ian. > > > > >

Actually, in the 70's it was a track with 2 long straights connected by a moderate speed curve and a little twisty part at the end. =) IIRC, it actually only had 1 chicane (between the straights? I forget...) until the 90's. It obviously didn't have the Senna chicane until 94 or 95. Jason On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:38:19 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (27 lines)

>I never thought of Hockenheim as a track with soul. It used to be just >straights and chicanes with a little twisty part at the end. What's so great >about that? Not much elevation change, boring design, some good drafting and >overtaking oppurtunities though. > >Thanks, >Alex >"idav" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:ai4ah0$55k$[email hidden]... >> Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript >layout >> that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some >> pencil pusher somewhere fucked this up royally by trying to be all things >to >> everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and >> memories well alone and this was one of them..... >> >> Here's to you Jim. >> >> Ian. >> >> >> >> >> > >

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Actually, in the 70's it was a track with 2 long straights connected > by a moderate speed curve and a little twisty part at the end. =) > > IIRC, it actually only had 1 chicane (between the straights? I > forget...) until the 90's. It obviously didn't have the Senna chicane > until 94 or 95. > > Jason >

I agree with Alex, Hock was, after all, a test track, that somehow got bumped up to world class status. From a sim driver's viewpoint, tracks like Hungary and A1 ring have far more appeal and from a Fan viewpoint.......sorry I'm having trouble here thinking of a modern F1 track that has appeal, where passing is possible in more than just one special location..... Ask me again next month...maybe I'll have thought of one by then...... dave henrie My first thought when I heard/saw the incar footage was they cut the first straight too soon. I know they couldn't cut any trees, but if they would have made the first straight long enough for full power, and then added a very sharp turn(al la the Adelaide hairpin at Magny Cour...) they might have added an additional passing zone to the other hairpin they built near the back. dh

>"idav" <[email hidden]> wrote > Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descriptlayout > that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Sorry I don't consider a long loop that was cut by three chicanes to be "what F1 used to be all about". -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Quoted text (7 lines)

>"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote > Actually, in the 70's it was a track with 2 long straights connected > by a moderate speed curve and a little twisty part at the end. =) > > IIRC, it actually only had 1 chicane (between the straights? I > forget...) until the 90's. It obviously didn't have the Senna chicane > until 94 or 95.

Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-) http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0 -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I was a little surprised to see how hard it is to pass on the new layout. I suspect the teams were a little surprised as well. It seemed that if your car had enough mechanical and aero grip for the twisty bits you could hold off those with straight-line speed. None of the straights were quite long enough to overcome the advantage another car might have coming off the corners. It may also have been difficult to get close to the car ahead coming off a corner. Jim idav wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descript layout > that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some > pencil pusher somewhere fucked this up royally by trying to be all things to > everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its history and > memories well alone and this was one of them..... > > Here's to you Jim. > > Ian.

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:58:19 GMT, [email hidden] (jason moyer) wrote: >Actually, in the 70's it was a track with 2 long straights connected >by a moderate speed curve and a little twisty part at the end. =) > >IIRC, it actually only had 1 chicane (between the straights? I >forget...) until the 90's. It obviously didn't have the Senna chicane >until 94 or 95. Obviously you recall wrong. The two chicanes on either side of the loop(Clark and Senna) were added in 1970. And I wouldn't really call Ostkurve 'moderate speed', it was flat-out with F2's in the late 70's... The bremskurve, the chicane before Ostkurve were added a couple of years after Patrick Depailler's fatal accident there in 1980. I think it at first was a makeshift tyrebarrier-chicane(and incidentally the place where Salazar and Piquet had their little infamous "argument", where they let the fists do the talking).

Agreed, and the drivers used to rate the old Hock as one of the most boring tracks to drive and race on I seem to remember from some mag. The new one certainly seemed to produce some exciting moments last weekend. Iain

Quoted text (15 lines)

> Sorry I don't consider a long loop that was cut by three chicanes to be > "what F1 used to be all about". > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

> None of the straights were quite long enough to > overcome the advantage another car might have coming off the corners. It may > also have been difficult to get close to the car ahead coming off a corner. But isn't that the whole problem with F1 cars - not the tracks? If you sat down with a blank piece of paper it would be difficult to devise a racing formula in which staying close to another car and passing would be more difficult. - Michael

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:28:58 -0400, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-) > >http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0 Great site. Didn't realize people were mutilating tracks before the 80's. =) Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:28:58 -0400, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-) > > > >http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0 > > Great site. > > Didn't realize people were mutilating tracks before the 80's. =) > > Jason

I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but the only reason tracks have benn changed is to keep drivers from being killed due to the cars being so damn quick and fast. It's not like they are out to ruin anyone's fun. Dead drivers would do that. David G Fisher

It's F1, there's not supposed to be any passing :) John "The Carvalho Family" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was a little surprised to see how hard it is to pass on the new layout.I > suspect the teams were a little surprised as well. It seemed that if yourcar > had enough mechanical and aero grip for the twisty bits you could hold offthose > with straight-line speed. None of the straights were quite long enough to > overcome the advantage another car might have coming off the corners. Itmay > also have been difficult to get close to the car ahead coming off acorner. > Jim > > idav wrote: > > > Another classic racetrack disappears to be replaced by a non descriptlayout > > that lacks any sort of spirit akin to what F1 used to be all about. Some > > pencil pusher somewhere fucked this up royally by trying to be allthings to > > everyone. There are times when its best to leave a track, its historyand > > memories well alone and this was one of them..... > > > > Here's to you Jim. > > > > Ian. >

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:25:06 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but the only reason tracks have benn changed is >to keep drivers from being killed due to the cars being so damn quick and >fast. It's not like they are out to ruin anyone's fun. Dead drivers would do >that. I dunno, I've always been a fan of "fix the cars not the tracks". Just MHO. I'm not opposed to increasing runoff areas, using tire barriers, increasing the number and training of marshals, etc, but chicanes are absolutely useless. Monza and Hockenheim were never particularly interesting circuits, but both had personalities that are now buried deep in the history books. The changes made at both circuits are the F1 equivalent of adding chicanes to Daytona. If there wre a chicane before turn 1 at Pocono the argument over armco vs concrete would be moot and driver safety would be increased exponentially. I think if Ayrton Senna or Gilles Villeneuve were alive, they'd scoff at the chicanes that were added to the corners they were killed at. Until the 80's most F1 deaths were the result of badly designed cars, fires, poor marshalling, a lack of runoff/barriers, and poorly installed barriers. Since then most fatal/near-fatal accidents could have been prevented via the HANS device (Senna, Hakkinen, etc). Some, like Villeneuve's, are unpreventable as best I can tell, since the main culprit there was reckless driving. Jason

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:27:48 -0400, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Sorry I don't consider a long loop that was cut by three chicanes to be >"what F1 used to be all about". Variety in track configurations, strategy, and "character" are what F1 used to be about tho. Hockenheim wasn't the most interesting place to drive, but even in interviews after practice last weekend all but 2 drivers said they preferred the old layout (the 2 not complaining being members of a team that has figured out that traction in low gears is more important than aero/horsepower and paints their cars Marlboro red). The German GP could now be held at nearly any track in the world, and no one watching on TV could really tell the difference if you filled the stadium with a bunch of German Ferrari fans. I will give the track designers credit for the hairpin coming out of the long left-hand sweeper, but other than that the new track is essentially Le Mans Bugatti with more trees. Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Until the 80's most F1 deaths were the result of badly designed cars, > fires, poor marshalling, a lack of runoff/barriers, and poorly > installed barriers. Since then most fatal/near-fatal accidents could > have been prevented via the HANS device (Senna, Hakkinen, etc). Some, Senna's would not have been prevented with the HANS device. A piece of suspension broke and went through his helmut into his brain... -- [email hidden] > like Villeneuve's, are unpreventable as best I can tell, since the > main culprit there was reckless driving. > > Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Until the 80's most F1 deaths were the result of badly designed cars, > fires, poor marshalling, a lack of runoff/barriers, and poorly > installed barriers. Since then most fatal/near-fatal accidents could > have been prevented via the HANS device (Senna, Hakkinen, etc). Some, Senna's would not have been prevented with the HANS device. A piece of suspension broke and went through his helmut into his brain... -- [email hidden] > like Villeneuve's, are unpreventable as best I can tell, since the > main culprit there was reckless driving. > > Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Until the 80's most F1 deaths were the result of badly designed cars, > fires, poor marshalling, a lack of runoff/barriers, and poorly > installed barriers. Since then most fatal/near-fatal accidents could > have been prevented via the HANS device (Senna, Hakkinen, etc). Some, Senna's would not have been prevented with the HANS device. A piece of suspension broke and went through his helmut into his brain... -- [email hidden] > like Villeneuve's, are unpreventable as best I can tell, since the > main culprit there was reckless driving. > > Jason

Bottom line was that hockenhiem had a uniqueness. That is now gone. I guess I don't care what the reason was for the change. Racing is dangerous & everyone knows it... -- [email hidden] "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mMI19.20369$[email hidden]... > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:28:58 -0400, "ymenard" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-) > > > > > >http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0 > > > > Great site. > > > > Didn't realize people were mutilating tracks before the 80's. =) > > > > Jason > > I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but the only reason tracks have benn changed is > to keep drivers from being killed due to the cars being so damn quick and > fast. It's not like they are out to ruin anyone's fun. Dead drivers would do > that. > > David G Fisher > >

Bottom line was that hockenhiem had a uniqueness. That is now gone. I guess I don't care what the reason was for the change. Racing is dangerous & everyone knows it... -- [email hidden] "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mMI19.20369$[email hidden]... > > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:28:58 -0400, "ymenard" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-) > > > > > >http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0 > > > > Great site. > > > > Didn't realize people were mutilating tracks before the 80's. =) > > > > Jason > > I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but the only reason tracks have benn changed is > to keep drivers from being killed due to the cars being so damn quick and > fast. It's not like they are out to ruin anyone's fun. Dead drivers would do > that. > > David G Fisher > >

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > >Again, Forix is here to tell the truth ;-) > > > > > >http://www.forix.com/asp/nc.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=7008&c=0 > > > > Great site. > > > > Didn't realize people were mutilating tracks before the 80's. =) > > > > Jason > > I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but the only reason tracks have benn changed is > to keep drivers from being killed due to the cars being so damn quick and > fast. It's not like they are out to ruin anyone's fun. Dead drivers would do > that. > > David G Fisher

Yeah, I think the 'Bremskurve 1' chicane was added because of Jim Clarks death, thats round about where he went off and hit a tree. I expect the 'Bremskurve 2' was also added after a death.

>"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote > Bottom line was that hockenhiem had a uniqueness. That is now > gone. I guess I don't care what the reason was for the change. Point taken. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d47e39b$[email hidden]... > Bottom line was that hockenhiem had a uniqueness. That is now > gone. I guess I don't care what the reason was for the change. > > Racing is dangerous & everyone knows it... > Grego! The most recent change was NOT made for safety's sake. Rather Uncle Bernie thought the laps took tooooo long to complete for proper viewing via TV. So he authorized the Butchering of the track...THEN they found out they couldn't chop down any trees since the track is situated in a Park...(or something to that effect)...So that is why the Shorted Hock is now too short by one long straight ... dave henrie

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:58:19 GMT, [email hidden] (jason moyer) wrote: >Actually, in the 70's it was a track with 2 long straights connected >by a moderate speed curve and a little twisty part at the end. =) The "moderate speed curve" was called Ostkurve was one of the longest and most challenging high speed turns in non-oval racing. Patrick Depailler died there in 1980, and one reason might have been a blackout caused by the G-forces of the new wingcar concept. Afterwards, a chicane got installed there. >IIRC, it actually only had 1 chicane (between the straights? I >forget...) until the 90's. It obviously didn't have the Senna chicane >until 94 or 95.The chicanes have been added in the middle of the straights after Jim Clark died in 1968. The first, where he crashed, was named after him, the second after Senna in 1994. The U-turn of the new layout is at the former Senna chicane. >>I never thought of Hockenheim as a track with soul. It used to be just >>straights and chicanes with a little twisty part at the end. What's so great >>about that? Not much elevation change, boring design, some good drafting and >>overtaking oppurtunities though. -- Matthias Flatt