AutoSimSport, FF, & Hyperstimulator

Current FF does a really good job of conveying what the tires and chassis are doing. rFactor is just brilliant! When entering a corner you can feel the front tires passing the limit if you brake too hard. If you've carried too much speed into the apex you feel the car drift. When accelerating off the corner you can feel the back end lose grip as the tires start to spin. I'm amazed that Mr. Crooke still derides FF technology! While I haven't driven any 600+ HP cars, I have done enough race driving to know that using a racing simulation with a FF wheel is much closer to reality than using a sim without FF. I don't think it's even debatable anymore. There is nothing standing in the way of FF that exactly portrays reality. Forces generated by lateral force applied to mechanical and pneumatic trail are surely being calculated in current sims. Add in forces caused by hitting bumps that are applied to the scrub radius, and that's about all the feedback you'll get from the steering wheel of a real car. I also found the Andrew Winchester interview a little odd. Me makes clear that he isn't using a FF wheel, but then makes a big point of how he can't feel how the car is handling as in real life. For a few dollars he could feel the car, instead of just watching it on the screen. Pat Dotson

cant honestly blame those who think FF is Shite... As I see it, if you didnt get lucky with your 1st FF wheel like some momo's that would lose settings and work like hell on defaults (especially if it was NOT Microsoft FF IMHO) then you HATED FF as I have read many people post their opinions here and other places... tis a shame too. I cant hardly stand to drive without it. [email hidden] enlightened us with:

Quoted text (28 lines)

> Current FF does a really good job of conveying what the tires and > chassis are doing. rFactor is just brilliant! When entering a corner > you can feel the front tires passing the limit if you brake too hard. > If you've carried too much speed into the apex you feel the car drift. > When accelerating off the corner you can feel the back end lose grip > as the tires start to spin. > > I'm amazed that Mr. Crooke still derides FF technology! While I > haven't driven any 600+ HP cars, I have done enough race driving to > know that using a racing simulation with a FF wheel is much closer to > reality than using a sim without FF. I don't think it's even > debatable anymore. > > There is nothing standing in the way of FF that exactly portrays > reality. Forces generated by lateral force applied to mechanical and > pneumatic trail are surely being calculated in current sims. Add in > forces caused by hitting bumps that are applied to the scrub radius, > and that's about all the feedback you'll get from the steering wheel > of a real car. > > I also found the Andrew Winchester interview a little odd. Me makes > clear that he isn't using a FF wheel, but then makes a big point of > how he can't feel how the car is handling as in real life. For a few > dollars he could feel the car, instead of just watching it on the > screen. > > > Pat Dotson

This is exactly my current quandry... I am all set to break out the plastic and order a TSW2 Cup. Problem is, I just don't know if I can live without FF now. When GPL first came out, I simply could not drive it. I was off the track in every corner no matter how hard I tried. Then the FF patch came out, and, well, wow! I could actually feel the ass-end getting twitchy and compensate long before I was off the track. Not that I didn't still suck at GPL. I did. At least I could make turns now :) Bear in mind, NR2003 FF effects do not thrill me that much. There really ain't much there to be honest. The feel of the ass-end leaving is the best I get out of it. The rest really doesn't add up to much. Viper Racing. Now THERE was Force Feedback. In a way I really wish Logitech had not pre-exposed their Vaporware (the G25). That's got my head all screwed up now. -Larry "PlowBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n1dqg.11928$f76.6669@dukeread06...

Quoted text (41 lines)

> cant honestly blame those who think FF is Shite... As I see it, if you > didnt get lucky with your 1st FF wheel like some momo's that would lose > settings and work like hell on defaults (especially if it was NOT > Microsoft FF IMHO) then you HATED FF as I have read many people post > their opinions here and other places... > > tis a shame too. I cant hardly stand to drive without it. > > > > [email hidden] enlightened us with: >> Current FF does a really good job of conveying what the tires and >> chassis are doing. rFactor is just brilliant! When entering a corner >> you can feel the front tires passing the limit if you brake too hard. >> If you've carried too much speed into the apex you feel the car drift. >> When accelerating off the corner you can feel the back end lose grip >> as the tires start to spin. >> >> I'm amazed that Mr. Crooke still derides FF technology! While I >> haven't driven any 600+ HP cars, I have done enough race driving to >> know that using a racing simulation with a FF wheel is much closer to >> reality than using a sim without FF. I don't think it's even >> debatable anymore. >> >> There is nothing standing in the way of FF that exactly portrays >> reality. Forces generated by lateral force applied to mechanical and >> pneumatic trail are surely being calculated in current sims. Add in >> forces caused by hitting bumps that are applied to the scrub radius, >> and that's about all the feedback you'll get from the steering wheel >> of a real car. >> >> I also found the Andrew Winchester interview a little odd. Me makes >> clear that he isn't using a FF wheel, but then makes a big point of >> how he can't feel how the car is handling as in real life. For a few >> dollars he could feel the car, instead of just watching it on the >> screen. >> >> >> Pat Dotson > >

I agree Pat. Once you setup the Wheel correctly it makes a world of difference for racing sims. Personally I wont even bother with non-FF anymore. That said I can only wonder what we *COULD* have if Immersion Tech and its hordes of patent lawyers/lobbyists werent able to effectively strangle any innovation of FF. When was the last time Immersion actually updated the API? 3-4 years ago or about the same time the (obnoxiously) broad patent was granted to them IIRC. Coincidence? Don't we have any Patent Lawyers around here? Mitch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (29 lines)

> Current FF does a really good job of conveying what the tires and > chassis are doing. rFactor is just brilliant! When entering a corner > you can feel the front tires passing the limit if you brake too hard. > If you've carried too much speed into the apex you feel the car drift. > When accelerating off the corner you can feel the back end lose grip as > the tires start to spin. > > I'm amazed that Mr. Crooke still derides FF technology! While I > haven't driven any 600+ HP cars, I have done enough race driving to > know that using a racing simulation with a FF wheel is much closer to > reality than using a sim without FF. I don't think it's even debatable > anymore. > > There is nothing standing in the way of FF that exactly portrays > reality. Forces generated by lateral force applied to mechanical and > pneumatic trail are surely being calculated in current sims. Add in > forces caused by hitting bumps that are applied to the scrub radius, > and that's about all the feedback you'll get from the steering wheel of > a real car. > > I also found the Andrew Winchester interview a little odd. Me makes > clear that he isn't using a FF wheel, but then makes a big point of how > he can't feel how the car is handling as in real life. For a few > dollars he could feel the car, instead of just watching it on the > screen. > > > Pat Dotson >

Larry wrote: > Bear in mind, NR2003 FF effects do not thrill me that much. There really > ain't much there to be honest. The feel of the ass-end leaving is the best > I get out of it. The rest really doesn't add up to much. I felt the same way about NR2003 FF. The thing is, I imagine that NR2003 probably has the most realistic FF seen in any sim to date. It's probably precisely calculating the naturally occuring steering column torque, and conveying that torque accurately to the FF wheel. The problem is, realistic steering column torque doesn't tell you the whole story regarding the car's handling. In comparison, rFactor's FF is not very 'realistic' because it conveys more than just the steering forces. It also conveys other handling forces acting on the car. If I'm perched on top of a motion platform, then all I need on the steering wheel is the realistic steering forces. I can feel the other forces outside of the steering wheel. On the other hand, if all I have between me and the sim is a CRT and a force feedback wheel, I'll take the less realistic, more communicative rFactor style of FF. It does a better job of telling me what the car is doing. As a result, my sim-experience translates more directly to RL when I get behind a real steering wheel. Pat Dotson

PlowBoy wrote: > cant honestly blame those who think FF is Shite... As I see it, if you > didnt get lucky with your 1st FF wheel like some momo's that would lose > settings and work like hell on defaults (especially if it was NOT Microsoft > FF IMHO) then you HATED FF as I have read many people post their opinions > here and other places... My problem is that I bought an ECCI about the same time that FF was first appearing. I got used to the feel of a real wheel. Later I decided I should give FF a try, sampled a couple of wheels and bought an ACT Labs Force RS. After a month of heavy use, I found the FF to be useful, but couldn't get past the fact that it felt like plastic toy crap. Light, flimsy, and delicate, nothing like a car at all. Feels as if the steering shaft goes into a plastic box full of gravel. Don't even mention the pedals, completely unusable. My complaint is not with the FF, it's with the box it comes in. If ECCI came out with an FF option, I'd be first in line. Don McCorkle

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 08:29:35 -0400, Woodie83 wrote: > useful, but couldn't get past the fact that it felt like plastic toy > crap. Light, flimsy, and delicate, nothing like a car at all. Feels as > if the steering shaft goes into a plastic box full of gravel. Don't > even mention the pedals, completely unusable. My complaint is not with > the FF, it's with the box it comes in. If ECCI came out with an FF > option, I'd be first in line. Hm, I think I read of a Momo upgrade kit by Frexx or whatever here recently. You should be able to use your ECCI pedals with a new FF wheel, that's what I did with my TSW2 pedals. Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Mitch A. wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> I agree Pat. Once you setup the Wheel correctly it makes a world of > difference for racing sims. Personally I wont even bother with non-FF > anymore. > > That said I can only wonder what we *COULD* have if Immersion Tech and its > hordes of patent lawyers/lobbyists werent able to effectively strangle any > innovation of FF. When was the last time Immersion actually updated the > API? 3-4 years ago or about the same time the (obnoxiously) broad patent > was granted to them IIRC. Coincidence? > > Don't we have any Patent Lawyers around here? >

Probably. We have a traitor.

"Woodie83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > My problem is that I bought an ECCI about the same time that FF was first > appearing. I got used to the feel of a real wheel. Later I decided I > should give FF a try, sampled a couple of wheels and bought an ACT Labs > Force RS. After a month of heavy use, I found the FF to be useful, but > couldn't get past the fact that it felt like plastic toy crap. Light, > flimsy, and delicate, nothing like a car at all. Feels as if the steering > shaft goes into a plastic box full of gravel. Don't even mention the > pedals, completely unusable. My complaint is not with the FF, it's with > the box it comes in. If ECCI came out with an FF option, I'd be first in > line. > > > Don McCorkle

I keep looking at the drive belt leading to the steering damper on my ECCI plus the remnants of 2 old FF wheels and think ...How difficult could it be? Dave

DavErb wrote: > I keep looking at the drive belt leading to the steering damper on my ECCI > plus the remnants of 2 old FF wheels and think ...How difficult could it be? That's exactly what I was thinking when I bought the ACT Labs wheel, but then when I looked inside I gave up on that idea. It was gear driven, and lots of them. Maybe another wheel which was belt driven would have been easier to jury rig, but I was so put off by the feel of the wheel, even with FF turned off that I decided "why screw up the feel of an already wonderful product?" Don McCorkle

Problem with ECCI is they have the same stance about FF as those who were screwed in the experiences... that & half way because maybe they dont dare say we dont offer FF, but we love it... All I really need right now, is the Ecci 3-pedal pedals they make now, setup for my Sidewinder... but they would not make a set for me, wish I still had the email I got back. And it is to many "hoops" to get 2 seperate controllers to work in my Kid's games to do it differently. when they had the 2000 pedals (tractor pedals) they sold em wired for Sidewinders FWIW, I wanted a clutch so I waited.. Woodie83 enlightened us with:

Quoted text (15 lines)

> DavErb wrote: > >> I keep looking at the drive belt leading to the steering damper on >> my ECCI plus the remnants of 2 old FF wheels and think ...How >> difficult could it be? > > That's exactly what I was thinking when I bought the ACT Labs wheel, > but then when I looked inside I gave up on that idea. It was gear > driven, and lots of them. Maybe another wheel which was belt driven > would have been easier to jury rig, but I was so put off by the feel > of the wheel, even with FF turned off that I decided "why screw up > the feel of an already wonderful product?" > > > Don McCorkle

I agree 100%, I bought my first BRD wheel and pedals about six years ago and I am so used to a wheel and pedal set-up that actually feels like a real car, eg: heavy solid all metal construction, that I just cannot get on with any cheap lightweight plastic set-ups, whether they have FF or not! The other thing to remember is that current FF only gives you steering torque feedback, it "simulates" the feel of what the wheels, tyres, etc are doing, but only through the steering column, which is NOT what you feel in a real car. In a real car you do of course get some feel through the steering colum and wheel, but you also get lots of feedback through the pedals, through the wheels and tyres, through the gear lever even! and also through your whole body (esp your bum) whilst you are sitting in the car. So until you have a FF wheel, FF pedals and FF seat set-up, you aint really got FF at all..... 8-)

Quoted text (14 lines)

> My problem is that I bought an ECCI about the same time that FF > was first appearing. I got used to the feel of a real wheel. > Later I decided I should give FF a try, sampled a couple of > wheels and bought an ACT Labs Force RS. After a month of heavy > use, I found the FF to be useful, but couldn't get past the > fact that it felt like plastic toy crap. Light, flimsy, and > delicate, nothing like a car at all. Feels as if the steering > shaft goes into a plastic box full of gravel. Don't even > mention the pedals, completely unusable. My complaint is not > with the FF, it's with the box it comes in. If ECCI came out > with an FF option, I'd be first in line. > > > Don McCorkle

*Peter* - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/

In which AutoSimSport issue were you reading this? Bob Simpson [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (15 lines)

> I'm amazed that Mr. Crooke still derides FF technology! While I > haven't driven any 600+ HP cars, I have done enough race driving to > know that using a racing simulation with a FF wheel is much closer to > reality than using a sim without FF. I don't think it's even debatable > anymore. > > > I also found the Andrew Winchester interview a little odd. Me makes > clear that he isn't using a FF wheel, but then makes a big point of how > he can't feel how the car is handling as in real life. For a few > dollars he could feel the car, instead of just watching it on the > screen. > > > Pat Dotson

Oops, never mind. I found it in the latest issue, July 2006. Bob Simpson wrote:

Quoted text (21 lines)

> In which AutoSimSport issue were you reading this? > > Bob Simpson > > [email hidden] wrote: > > > I'm amazed that Mr. Crooke still derides FF technology! While I > > haven't driven any 600+ HP cars, I have done enough race driving to > > know that using a racing simulation with a FF wheel is much closer to > > reality than using a sim without FF. I don't think it's even debatable > > anymore. > > > > > > I also found the Andrew Winchester interview a little odd. Me makes > > clear that he isn't using a FF wheel, but then makes a big point of how > > he can't feel how the car is handling as in real life. For a few > > dollars he could feel the car, instead of just watching it on the > > screen. > > > > > > Pat Dotson