Archive / 2002 / August

RASCAR: Practice Server

59 posts by 14 people · 20 Aug 2002 11:29 UTC - 02 Sep 2002 17:34 UTC

RASCAR practice servers and how much practice is needed

John Simmons set up RASCAR practice servers on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Tom Pabst's comment that RASCAR drivers could not stay out of each other's doors at Michigan led to a long debate with Eldred and David G Fisher about practice time, realistic side-by-side racing and what makes a competitive driver. Eldred said he was giving up trying to get faster.

online racing/leaguessetup/driving techniqueNASCAR Racing 2002 Season

Automated summary.

John Simmons 20 Aug 2002 11:29 UTC#102344

Okay. I've configured DeMONS to run three practice races per day on Tuesday and on Thursday. The Servers will show up as follows: Time Server ----------- ------------- 2pm eastern RASCAR (43-A) 5pm eastern RASCAR (43-B) 8pm eastern RASCAR (43-C) Each surver is 25% race length, no cautions, double-file restarts. The track for this week is Bristol-Night. (I hope this works - grin). -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

MadDAWG 20 Aug 2002 16:19 UTC↳ reply to John Simmons #102386

Wow double file restarts with no cautions. You are a programing god. Just how long did it take for you to get that to work? :) MadDAWG

Tom Pabst 20 Aug 2002 20:50 UTC↳ reply to MadDAWG #102260

Lol.....MD, you're probably the only guy that picked up on that! I didn't........ I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying to race at Bristol. ROFLMAO! TP "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Wow double file restarts with no cautions. You are a programing god. Just > how long did it take for you to get that to work? :) > > MadDAWG > >

Mark Davison 20 Aug 2002 21:07 UTC↳ reply to John Simmons #102263

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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Christ I am just *not* with it tonight. Must be sleep deprivation. Appologies, John, for replying to sender rather than group - I'm sure you can do without my pointless ramblings in your inbox... What's after Bristol? I avoid that place and leave it to the real men ;-) Mark Reading, UK

John Simmons 20 Aug 2002 21:08 UTC↳ reply to MadDAWG #102264

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Wow double file restarts with no cautions. You are a programing god. Just > how long did it take for you to get that to work? :) > > MadDAWG > > >

I was in a hurry when I set it up and sent that message. So, did anyone see if it even ran at 3pm lke it was supposed to? -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Mark Davison 20 Aug 2002 21:10 UTC↳ reply to Mark Davison #102265

> Christ I am just *not* with it tonight. Must be sleep deprivation. > Appologies, John, for replying to sender rather than group Which was bounced back anyway... "I'll get me coat..." Mark Reading, UK

Tom Pabst 20 Aug 2002 21:19 UTC↳ reply to John Simmons #102273

Yeah...it was running, but there were too many cautions, so I exited. TP :o "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > Wow double file restarts with no cautions. You are a programing god.Just

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> > how long did it take for you to get that to work? :) > > > > MadDAWG > > > > > > > I was in a hurry when I set it up and sent that message. So, did anyone > see if it even ran at 3pm lke it was supposed to? > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Richard "ZZ" Busch 20 Aug 2002 23:48 UTC↳ reply to John Simmons #102238

I never saw it at 2 or 5 -- Richard "ZZ" Busch Member: Screamers Racing League CORS RASCAR GPL Rank + 17.46 MoGPL Rank + 349.43 http://www.ZZBusch.com ---------------- Busch Motorsports: Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward ----------------- Busch Carpentry: A good carpenter can nail anything -----------------

Richard 20 Aug 2002 23:48 UTC#529818

EldredP 21 Aug 2002 01:14 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #102165

In article <lYx89.113365$me6.15625@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying to race at >Bristol. ROFLMAO! Why not? *Other* leagues do it... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP 21 Aug 2002 01:14 UTC#529819

writes: Why not? *Other* leagues do it... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tom Pabst 21 Aug 2002 05:42 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #102132

EldredP.... Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that have some level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into their leagues (unless its a novice league). You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors at Michigan....with four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide! Now....you want to race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race (say, right before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of green flag racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there is so much objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. One for the veteran r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately after for "all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the old timers like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...even Ymenard! There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single day, they just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Bet you could get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a veterans-only RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would get them back involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in the "all levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys! Isn't that what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping the new guys? But what the hell....I give up. TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <lYx89.113365$me6.15625@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]>

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> writes: > > >I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying to race at > >Bristol. ROFLMAO! > > Why not? *Other* leagues do it... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

David G Fisher 21 Aug 2002 06:06 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #102138

We've already raced Bristol twice actually. David G Fisher "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fLF89.181974$UU1.32746@sccrnsc03... > EldredP.... > > Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that havesome > level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into theirleagues > (unless its a novice league). > > You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors at Michigan....with > four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide! Now....you wantto > race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing > machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! > > Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race (say, right > before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of greenflag > racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there is so much > objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. One for the veteran > r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately afterfor

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> "all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the old timers > like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...even Ymenard! > There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single day, they > just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Bet you could > get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a veterans-only > RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be > better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would get them back > involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in the "all > levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys! Isn't that > what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping the new > guys? > > But what the hell....I give up. > > TP > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <lYx89.113365$me6.15625@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" > <[email hidden]> > > writes: > > > > >I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying to race

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> > >Bristol. ROFLMAO! > > > > Why not? *Other* leagues do it... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

John Simmons 21 Aug 2002 10:17 UTC↳ reply to Mark Davison #102071

In article <ajub2e$m0o$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Okay. I've configured DeMONS to run three practice races per day on > > Tuesday and on Thursday. > > > > The Servers will show up as follows: > > > > Time Server > > ----------- ------------- > > 2pm eastern RASCAR (43-A) > > 5pm eastern RASCAR (43-B) > > 8pm eastern RASCAR (43-C) > > > > > > Each surver is 25% race length, no cautions, double-file restarts. The > > track for this week is Bristol-Night. > > > > (I hope this works - grin). > > Christ I am just *not* with it tonight. Must be sleep deprivation. > Appologies, John, for replying to sender rather than group - I'm sure you > can do without my pointless ramblings in your inbox... > > What's after Bristol? I avoid that place and leave it to the real men ;-) >

Huh? I didn't get anything in email (m,y email addy that shows up here is [email hidden] so whoever *really* owns that got your email. :) -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

John Simmons 21 Aug 2002 10:22 UTC↳ reply to Richard "ZZ" Busch #102072

In article <gzA89.94631$[email hidden]>, "Richard \"ZZ\" Busch" <[email hidden]> says... > I never saw it at 2 or 5 > It looks like it ran at 3pm eastern, and at 6pm eastern (after some massaging). I neglected to restart the real 9pm server, so it didn't run. There were three of us in the 5pm race, and NONE of us bumped into each other, so to Tom, a hearty "neener neener neener". :) -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

EldredP 21 Aug 2002 14:12 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #102023

In article <fLF89.181974$UU1.32746@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that have some >level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into their leagues >(unless its a novice league). >I've only had ONE league ask me what qualifications I had(previous leagues, online experience, etc). >You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors at Michigan....with >four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide! Now....you want to >race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing >machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! David called attention to the fact that you can't run the same lines in N2K2 that you can on the real track. So, how the HELL would you expect people to be able to go 4-wide in the game? >Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race (say, right >before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of green flag >racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there is so much >objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. Time constraints. Most people probably don't want to run for 3-4 hours in the middle of a Saturday afternoon/evening. I might, but I don't have a family to worry about. And what would be the cutoff to make the veterans race? Length of online racing experience? Sheer speed? I could make it based on the first criterium, but not the second.

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>One for the veteran >r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately after for >"all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the old timers >like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...even Ymenard! >There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single day, they >just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Bet you could >get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a veterans-only >RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be >better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would get them back >involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in the "all >levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys! Isn't that >what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping the new >guys?

Truthfully, I doubt it. And aren't these guys *already* in several 'elite' leagues? Why would they want to race with the 'common' folks? >But what the hell....I give up. Comments like that make me wonder why you seem to have so much...spite. It comes out as "Well, you don't want to do it the way *I* want, so fuck you". If I've mis-read that, please explain your true intentions. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP 21 Aug 2002 14:12 UTC#529820

writes: I've only had ONE league ask me what qualifications I had(previous leagues, online experience, etc). David called attention to the fact that you can't run the same lines in N2K2 that you can on the real track. So, how the HELL would you expect people to be able to go 4-wide in the game? Time constraints. Most people probably don't want to run for 3-4 hours in the middle of a Saturday afternoon/evening. I might, but I don't have a family to worry about. And what would be the cutoff to make the veterans race? Length of online racing experience? Sheer speed? I could make it based on the first criterium, but not the second. Truthfully, I doubt it. And aren't these guys *already* in several 'elite' leagues? Why would they want to race with the 'common' folks? Comments like that make me wonder why you seem to have so much...spite. It comes out as "Well, you don't want to do it the way *I* want, so *** you". If I've mis-read that, please explain your true intentions. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tom Pabst 21 Aug 2002 16:22 UTC↳ reply to John Simmons #101954

Lol....John.... I was only kidding you anyway. Didn't you get it..... "I exited because there were too many cautions!" ???? You had "cautions" turned off, right? TP "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <gzA89.94631$[email hidden]>, "Richard > \"ZZ\" Busch" <[email hidden]> says... > > I never saw it at 2 or 5 > > > > It looks like it ran at 3pm eastern, and at 6pm eastern (after some > massaging). I neglected to restart the real 9pm server, so it didn't > run. > > There were three of us in the 5pm race, and NONE of us bumped into each > other, so to Tom, a hearty "neener neener neener". :) > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Tom Pabst 21 Aug 2002 18:12 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101986

EldredP.... I usually don't like to do this.....but I answered each of your "answers" below yours.......designated by a <Pabst>....... While my original post was a little bit of "tongue in cheek".....your answers/questions seemed to be serious....so my reply is serious. No kidding around this time, I promise. Regards, Tom ****************** "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <fLF89.181974$UU1.32746@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that havesome > >level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into theirleagues > >(unless its a novice league). > >EldredP> I've only had ONE league ask me what qualifications I had(previous leagues, > online experience, etc). <Pabst> There are probably a thousand online racing leagues around....past and present. Just because you've only had one of them ask about your previous experience in sim racing doesn't mean that any beginner/novice can join a sim racing league....any time he/she wants to....and be accepted. Most of the league admins believe someone wouldn't even consider joining a serious online racing league without having some experience racing against the AI off-line or other league racing experience. Many leagues, you can't even get into them "at will".....and others are so hungry for participants, they probably are a little less stringent about sim racing experience and background for their drivers. I believe the "elite leagues" you refer to are a misnomer. There is nothing "elite" about being a good sim driver, or a good racing driver for that matter. Its not something you inherit, its something you earn by long hours of practice, and in time, gain through experience in running in online league races. I think maybe you have the wrong opinion of the veteran sim drivers. The ones I know.....do not consider themselves in any way as "elite" drivers. They practice a lot.....they work hard at learning a race track.....they are very helpful to other sim drivers who are less experienced.....and for the most part, they give a lot back to this sim community as a way of "paying their dues" to this sport. > >You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors at Michigan....with > >four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide! Now....you wantto > >race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing > >machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! EldredP> David called attention to the fact that you can't run the same lines in N2K2 > that you can on the real track. So, how the HELL would you expect peopleto be > able to go 4-wide in the game? <Pabst> David was not correct. Most of the vet drivers didn't respond to his remarks - IMHO (I know I didn't for this reason) because its such an old topic....its just boring to go through it over and over again. So, don't take what David said as being "correct" because it wasn't rebuked handidly. I'm not going to go through all of the "reasons" he is wrong here. But I'd be glad to do it with you directly. So, call me: 707-763-3150....or send me an email and let's set a time to talk by telephone if you'd like ([email hidden]). I can promise you in 15 minutes I will have you firmly convinced that you can race 4-wide, 3-wide, 2-wide....at any track in N2K2.......95% as well as the real-world drivers can. I can recall many laps at WG during online practice sessions with George Sandman, running entire laps completely door to door with him....yes - side by side for entire laps...multiple laps. We did this so we could practice running side by side....in preparation for a league we were competing in together! Yes, we banged each other from time to time....yes we crashed from time to time. But after practicing this for 20 hours (over four sessions online) or so.....we could run multiple laps, side by side...without touching each other....and these were low 18's high 17's......we were running full speed. At any of the N2K2 oval tracks, it would take us only a couple hours to accomplish the same as on a road course (we can do this at Sears too). You guys think you can go out an run some practice laps for a couple hours....and that's good enough to learn a track? No way! You can't do that......not in sim racing.....and certainly not in real-world racing! And I bet you most of the r.a.s. RASCAR drivers don't even put in two hours of prep and practice for your Saturday race! The problem for most sim drivers....they don't have enough time to do the practice required........in order for the simulation of their racing to approach anything like what real-world racing is like. Then....you blame the sim for it. I've been listening to novice sim drivers do this for 5 + years.....you guys are "old hat" and the few of you that will become vets.....will eventually know what I'm talking about. > > >Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race (say, right > >before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of greenflag > >racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there is so much > >objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. > EldredP> Time constraints. Most people probably don't want to run for 3-4 hours in the > middle of a Saturday afternoon/evening. I might, but I don't have afamily to > worry about. And what would be the cutoff to make the veterans race?Length > of online racing experience? Sheer speed? I could make it based on thefirst > criterium, but not the second. <Pabst> First of all, I think what you and John Simmons are trying to do is very commendable, and I thank you for making the considerable effort that both of you are making. However, I think both of you are doing too much "assuming" what others think....or want. Or, you listen to a few vocal remarks/posts.....and assume that is what everyone thinks or wants. Why not try to do a little less "thinking" for others.......and a little more "asking questions" and getting a concensus? With regards to a "vets only" RASCAR race.....listen to what the vets say to you.....not the novices. Okay? By "cutoff"....I assume you mean, what would the criteria be for racing in the "veterans only" RASCAR race? Right? That's pretty simple: your "reputation" as a sim driver is your ticket into the RASCAR veterans race on Saturday. If you are a "veteran" sim driver you've probaby been racing since the TEN days....participated in online racing leagues for 3 to 4 years (or longer) and are probaby pretty well known within the sim community. I can name 2 or 3 hundred guys with a little thought......that fit this simple criteria. Sure, not all are still sim racing. Not all of them even run N2K2 these days. Not all of them would participate anyway! But enough would - IMHO....to fill a vets race nearly every Saturday....after some time was given for the "word" to get around. Of course...everyone has time constraints to one degree or another. And, what they can do on one Saturday, may not be what they can do *every* Saturday. With two RASCAR races, you'd need the 3 to 4 hours you mention (plus 10 hours practice during the week leading up to the race......minimum - for a vets only race). And, some of us would have that....on SOME Saturdays...but not ALL Saturdays. Sometimes we'd only have time to run in one race......some times we'd not have any time to participate. If you have enough of a "participant base".....and r.a.s. should be able to provide that......you'd have fairly full races each weekend......or should have full races once the RASCAR events were well established. This won't happen over night.....but in two to three months....you'd probably have some weekends were you'd have to turn away drivers. I'm sure of it. I'm really sure of it if enough time was given to allow "the word" to spread around the sim community....and it was properly promoted. I would love to have the time to do this......but I don't. So, I'm stuck trying to get you guys to at least consider adding a "vets only" event to the Saturday RASCAR racing. I tell you what.....if you guys would consider adding a vets only race.....I'll find three hours a week to help you promote and organize it. But, I can't be responsible for actually conducting the races on Saturday since that is not a time slot I can "fix".......because of the work load around here at PR. I know I can find three hours dispersed in the week, to help you, though. Maybe that's not enough....but its a start? > >One for the veteran > >r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately afterfor > >"all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the old timers > >like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...evenYmenard! > >There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single day, they > >just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Bet youcould > >get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a veterans-only > >RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be > >better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would get them back > >involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in the"all > >levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys! Isn't that > >what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping thenew > >guys? Eldred> Truthfully, I doubt it. And aren't these guys *already* in several 'elite' > leagues? Why would they want to race with the 'common' folks? <Pabst> EldredP, this is another example of you "thinking" for others. And, you have the wrong opinions of the "elite" drivers, as you call them. I've already discussed this so I'm not going to repeat it. "Racing in a vets only RASCAR race"....IS NOT....racing with the "common folks." Is it? Sure...some guys won't participate in the "all comers" RASCAR races...only in the vets race. Some won't have time to participate at all (because of other league commitments and so forth).....but I bet you the participation will be eventually much higher than you think! And I bet you .....that you and several others here will find out just what kind of guys these "elite" drivers, as you call them.....really are! You have the wrong opinion of them....completely wrong opinion of them! Wanna bet me? > >But what the hell....I give up. EldredP> Comments like that make me wonder why you seem to have so much...spite. It > comes out as "Well, you don't want to do it the way *I* want, so fuckyou". If > I've mis-read that, please explain your true intentions. <Pabst> "Yes." You've mis-read it. You don't understand....or seem to understand.....that I think what you guys are trying to do ....is way cool! I'm 100% behind your efforts. I don't want you to change a thing. What I am asking you to consider is to "ADD" a second race for veterans-only (r.a.s. visitors who are vet sim drivers) on Saturdays. You keep saying that this is something "I want"......and I'm trying to help you by telling you guys.....based on my knowledge and experience for the last five years - racing primarily with the guys you call the "elite drivers"....which is totall BS.....what it would take to get these guys to participate more in your Saturday RASCAR race(s). This is not about what I want.....this is about what I believe it will take to get more involvement from the vet drivers (which is something you seem to say you want....but don't want to encourage, apparently?). That is only my opinion....but its based on a much better knowledge of these guys than you and John Simmons have. You keep putting this back on me as having some "ego" crap about my wanting to do everything "my way"....and it has nothing to do with that. I'm trying to be helpful and supportive and you guys are just pissing me off with this ego shit. I say, "Add a second race for veterans only." You say, "Why would the elite drives want to race with the common folk." EldredP....that indicates to me that we are somehow not communicating......and leads me to say, "I give up!" Regards, Tom ****end********

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> Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

David G Fisher 21 Aug 2002 19:59 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101867

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5KQ89.105141$983.122335@rwcrnsc53... > David was not correct. Most of the vet drivers didn't respond to his > remarks - IMHO (I know I didn't for this reason) because its such an old > topic....its just boring to go through it over and over again. So, don't > take what David said as being "correct" because it wasn't rebukedhandidly. > I'm not going to go through all of the "reasons" he is wrong here. ButI'd > be glad to do it with you directly. So, call me: 707-763-3150....or send > me an email and let's set a time to talk by telephone if you'd like > ([email hidden]). I can promise you in 15 minutes I will have youfirmly > convinced that you can race 4-wide, 3-wide, 2-wide....at any track in > N2K2.......95% as well as the real-world drivers can. I can recall many > laps at WG during online practice sessions with George Sandman, running > entire laps completely door to door with him....yes - side by side for > entire laps...multiple laps. We did this so we could practice runningside > by side....in preparation for a league we were competing in together!Yes, > we banged each other from time to time....yes we crashed from time totime. > But after practicing this for 20 hours (over four sessions online) or > so.....we could run multiple laps, side by side...without touching each > other....and these were low 18's high 17's......we were running fullspeed. > At any of the N2K2 oval tracks, it would take us only a couple hours to > accomplish the same as on a road course (we can do this at Sears too).You > guys think you can go out an run some practice laps for a couple > hours....and that's good enough to learn a track? No way! You can't do > that......not in sim racing.....and certainly not in real-world racing!And > I bet you most of the r.a.s. RASCAR drivers don't even put in two hours of > prep and practice for your Saturday race! The problem for most sim > drivers....they don't have enough time to do the practicerequired........in > order for the simulation of their racing to approach anything like what > real-world racing is like. Then....you blame the sim for it. I've been > listening to novice sim drivers do this for 5 + years.....you guys are"old > hat" and the few of you that will become vets.....will eventually knowwhat > I'm talking about. As I said in that other post, show me replays of what I saw last Sunday and then I'll believe it. I think we are talking about two different things. I can run side by side with someone. What I saw on Sunday though is not something anyone is going to be able to give me a replay of in N2002. I could describe it in minute detail, but instead all I'll say is grab a video of last weeks race, find the best replay you can of any Michigan race in N2002, and I guarantee you it doesn't look like the real thing. No N2002 Talladega replay will look like the real thing either. Either the tire model, physics, or aero is off. This is starting to remind me of when people insisted people were driving the GPL cars realistically and then I saw the replays and they were criss crossing the driving line like crazy. David G Fisher

John Simmons 21 Aug 2002 21:21 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101897

Yeah, it was a joke back at ya. :) Cautions wer off. :) In article <%6P89.195444$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Lol....John.... > > I was only kidding you anyway. Didn't you get it..... "I exited because > there were too many cautions!" ???? You had "cautions" turned off, right? > > TP > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <gzA89.94631$[email hidden]>, "Richard > > \"ZZ\" Busch" <[email hidden]> says... > > > I never saw it at 2 or 5 > > > > > > > It looks like it ran at 3pm eastern, and at 6pm eastern (after some > > massaging). I neglected to restart the real 9pm server, so it didn't > > run. > > > > There were three of us in the 5pm race, and NONE of us bumped into each > > other, so to Tom, a hearty "neener neener neener". :)

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Tom Pabst 21 Aug 2002 21:37 UTC↳ reply to David G Fisher #101903

David.... I think I know what you are getting at........i.e., will an online races ever mimic a real Winston Cup race.....in terms of bunching of cars, running side by side and nose to tail for hundreds of laps, etc. Probably not. But, if you consider that most online races are done with amateur drivers.....then to blame the sim directly for this isn't totally accurate, either. Would it be possible to have a sim race in N2K2 that would be closer to the real thing. "Yes"...its possible, if you could get 43 of the best N2K2 sim drivers together....let them race each other week after week for several years.....knowing each other's habits and racing style....if all that could be done, my contention is the N2K2 race would be about 95% accurate to the real world Cup race (the sim is 95% accurate to the real world racing). If I was using N2K2 as a "training device/simulator" for a real world Winston Cup race. I would want to run against (well programmed) AI cars rather than human drivers...of the sort we find in online racing today. The AI mimic the top pro drivers much closer than any group of current human sim drivers. Again, this is not the fault of the sim.....you know what I mean? I did think you were talking about a more narrow issue, that of being able (or unable) run side by side for multiple laps....in today's version of N2K2. My contention is that if you get the right group of sim drivers together, equally prepared and practiced....and they can do that all day long......at any track. I thought you were saying that wasn't possible. Guess I wasn't clear about that? Good discussion, though.....don't you think? Tom "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1jS89.106183$[email hidden]... > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:5KQ89.105141$983.122335@rwcrnsc53... > > David was not correct. Most of the vet drivers didn't respond to his > > remarks - IMHO (I know I didn't for this reason) because its such an old > > topic....its just boring to go through it over and over again. So,don't > > take what David said as being "correct" because it wasn't rebuked > handidly. > > I'm not going to go through all of the "reasons" he is wrong here. But > I'd > > be glad to do it with you directly. So, call me: 707-763-3150....orsend

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> > me an email and let's set a time to talk by telephone if you'd like > > ([email hidden]). I can promise you in 15 minutes I will have you > firmly > > convinced that you can race 4-wide, 3-wide, 2-wide....at any track in > > N2K2.......95% as well as the real-world drivers can. I can recall many > > laps at WG during online practice sessions with George Sandman, running > > entire laps completely door to door with him....yes - side by side for > > entire laps...multiple laps. We did this so we could practice running > side > > by side....in preparation for a league we were competing in together! > Yes, > > we banged each other from time to time....yes we crashed from time to > time. > > But after practicing this for 20 hours (over four sessions online) or > > so.....we could run multiple laps, side by side...without touching each > > other....and these were low 18's high 17's......we were running full > speed. > > At any of the N2K2 oval tracks, it would take us only a couple hours to > > accomplish the same as on a road course (we can do this at Sears too). > You > > guys think you can go out an run some practice laps for a couple > > hours....and that's good enough to learn a track? No way! You can't do > > that......not in sim racing.....and certainly not in real-world racing! > And > > I bet you most of the r.a.s. RASCAR drivers don't even put in two hours

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> > prep and practice for your Saturday race! The problem for most sim > > drivers....they don't have enough time to do the practice > required........in > > order for the simulation of their racing to approach anything like what > > real-world racing is like. Then....you blame the sim for it. I've been > > listening to novice sim drivers do this for 5 + years.....you guys are > "old > > hat" and the few of you that will become vets.....will eventually know > what > > I'm talking about. > > As I said in that other post, show me replays of what I saw last Sunday

and > then I'll believe it. I think we are talking about two different things. I > can run side by side with someone. What I saw on Sunday though is not > something anyone is going to be able to give me a replay of in N2002. I > could describe it in minute detail, but instead all I'll say is grab avideo > of last weeks race, find the best replay you can of any Michigan race in > N2002, and I guarantee you it doesn't look like the real thing. No N2002 > Talladega replay will look like the real thing either. Either the tire > model, physics, or aero is off. This is starting to remind me of whenpeople > insisted people were driving the GPL cars realistically and then I saw the > replays and they were criss crossing the driving line like crazy. > > David G Fisher > >

David G Fisher 21 Aug 2002 22:07 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101915

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0KT89.106695$983.123502@rwcrnsc53... > David.... > > I think I know what you are getting at........i.e., will an online races > ever mimic a real Winston Cup race.....in terms of bunching of cars,running > side by side and nose to tail for hundreds of laps, etc. Probably not. > But, if you consider that most online races are done with amateur > drivers.....then to blame the sim directly for this isn't totallyaccurate, > either. Would it be possible to have a sim race in N2K2 that would be > closer to the real thing. "Yes"...its possible, if you could get 43 ofthe > best N2K2 sim drivers together....let them race each other week after week > for several years.....knowing each other's habits and racing style....ifall

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> that could be done, my contention is the N2K2 race would be about 95% > accurate to the real world Cup race (the sim is 95% accurate to the real > world racing). > > If I was using N2K2 as a "training device/simulator" for a real world > Winston Cup race. I would want to run against (well programmed) AI cars > rather than human drivers...of the sort we find in online racing today.

The > AI mimic the top pro drivers much closer than any group of current humansim > drivers. Again, this is not the fault of the sim.....you know what Imean?

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> > I did think you were talking about a more narrow issue, that of being able > (or unable) run side by side for multiple laps....in today's version of > N2K2. My contention is that if you get the right group of sim drivers > together, equally prepared and practiced....and they can do that all day > long......at any track. I thought you were saying that wasn't possible. > Guess I wasn't clear about that? > > Good discussion, though.....don't you think? > > Tom

Actually, I don't think an N2002 replay of even 20 laps of what I saw Sunday in the real Michigan race can be presented to me even though there are guys who have been racing each other in Papy NASCAR sims for years now. At some tracks, sure you can run side by side three wide. Tracks with steep banking or the shorter tracks. It's easy. At tracks like Michigan though, the real drivers were going three and four wide through the turns, one or two feet apart, glued to the track, and were just as fast on the outside line. I am positive that I won't see anyone recreate this in N2002. This will make some people mad, but I don't find N2002 to be the hardest thing I've ever done in sim racing either. It's not as if an oval has 16 completely different turns spread over 3.5 miles like an F1 course. If people with more experience than me with the sim can't do it, then something is wrong with the sim. A replay shouldn't be too hard to find if I'm wrong though, right? David G Fisher

Bamadano 21 Aug 2002 22:21 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101926

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> I can recall many >laps at WG during online practice sessions with George Sandman, running >entire laps completely door to door with him....yes - side by side for >entire laps...multiple laps. We did this so we could practice running side >by side....in preparation for a league we were competing in together! Yes, >we banged each other from time to time....yes we crashed from time to time. >But after practicing this for 20 hours (over four sessions online) or >so.....we could run multiple laps, side by side...without touching each >other....and these were low 18's high 17's......we were running full speed.

You did this with the default <fast> setup Tom? dan

EldredP 22 Aug 2002 01:57 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101836

In article <5KQ89.105141$983.122335@rwcrnsc53>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >At any of the N2K2 oval tracks, it would take us only a couple hours to >accomplish the same as on a road course (we can do this at Sears too). You >guys think you can go out an run some practice laps for a couple >hours....and that's good enough to learn a track? No way! You can't do >that......not in sim racing.....and certainly not in real-world racing! So how much time DOES it take? And as I've asked before(but haven't seen an answer yet) - what can you learn in the 4th hour that you didn't learn in the first THREE? Bristol looks the same after 1000 laps than it did after 50. We're talking about tracks with lap times of less that 40 seconds, for the most part. I've also heard that sim racers often run MORE practice laps than real drivers. We don't have to pay for gas and tires, we don't have to travel to and from the track. We can run laps at Daytona for a couple of hours, then run some at Phoenix in the next. We don't have to repair care that we tear up, and don't have to recuperate from serious accidents. >And >I bet you most of the r.a.s. RASCAR drivers don't even put in two hours of >prep and practice for your Saturday race! This, I'd agree with. I know *I* don't have that kind of time.. :-( >The problem for most sim >drivers....they don't have enough time to do the practice required........in >order for the simulation of their racing to approach anything like what >real-world racing is like. Since you know and watch real-world drivers, what kind of practice schedule DO they have? Certainly they're not at the track driving 4 hours per day, every day... Eldred p.s. Yes, I'll call... -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Darf 22 Aug 2002 03:17 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101743

IMHO the time it takes to learn a track can vary greatly from track to track. On some tracks, I can be within 2 seconds of the best lap times within say 2 hours. Some tracks, with difficult corners, cambers etc, can take me 10 hours to get within the same 2 seconds. It then takes me up to 2 weeks to hone each corner, and also to work out which corners that time is being lost on, before I am up to the top lap times. It also takes a lot of time for me to get confident with a track.Confident to the point that I know how the car will perform during overtaking manoeuvres etc.at most points of the track. I am sure a lot of you guys could get to this point a lot quicker than I do. I am only talking about what I a can achieve. Darf > So how much time DOES it take? And as I've asked before(but haven't seenan > answer yet) - what can you learn in the 4th hour that you didn't learn inthe > first THREE? Bristol looks the same after 1000 laps than it did after 50.

John Pancoast 22 Aug 2002 04:06 UTC↳ reply to David G Fisher #101746

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:waU89.121767$[email hidden]... > > A replay shouldn't be too hard to find if I'm wrong though, right? > > David G Fisher <VBG> It's the sim, has been since N1. John > > > >

John Pancoast 22 Aug 2002 04:06 UTC#529833

<VBG> It's the sim, has been since N1. John

John Pancoast 22 Aug 2002 04:13 UTC↳ reply to David G Fisher #101747

Dave, drop me an email when you can. John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:waU89.121767$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:0KT89.106695$983.123502@rwcrnsc53... > > David.... > > > > I think I know what you are getting at........i.e., will an online races > > ever mimic a real Winston Cup race.....in terms of bunching of cars, > running > > side by side and nose to tail for hundreds of laps, etc. Probably not. > > But, if you consider that most online races are done with amateur > > drivers.....then to blame the sim directly for this isn't totally > accurate, > > either. Would it be possible to have a sim race in N2K2 that would be > > closer to the real thing. "Yes"...its possible, if you could get 43 of > the > > best N2K2 sim drivers together....let them race each other week after

week

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> > for several years.....knowing each other's habits and racing style....if > all > > that could be done, my contention is the N2K2 race would be about 95% > > accurate to the real world Cup race (the sim is 95% accurate to the real > > world racing). > > > > If I was using N2K2 as a "training device/simulator" for a real world > > Winston Cup race. I would want to run against (well programmed) AI cars > > rather than human drivers...of the sort we find in online racing today. > The > > AI mimic the top pro drivers much closer than any group of current human > sim > > drivers. Again, this is not the fault of the sim.....you know what I > mean? > > > > I did think you were talking about a more narrow issue, that of being

able

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> > (or unable) run side by side for multiple laps....in today's version of > > N2K2. My contention is that if you get the right group of sim drivers > > together, equally prepared and practiced....and they can do that all day > > long......at any track. I thought you were saying that wasn't possible. > > Guess I wasn't clear about that? > > > > Good discussion, though.....don't you think? > > > > Tom > > Actually, I don't think an N2002 replay of even 20 laps of what I saw

Sunday > in the real Michigan race can be presented to me even though there areguys > who have been racing each other in Papy NASCAR sims for years now. > > At some tracks, sure you can run side by side three wide. Tracks withsteep

Quoted text (8 lines)

> banking or the shorter tracks. It's easy. At tracks like Michigan though, > the real drivers were going three and four wide through the turns, one or > two feet apart, glued to the track, and were just as fast on the outside > line. I am positive that I won't see anyone recreate this in N2002. This > will make some people mad, but I don't find N2002 to be the hardest thing > I've ever done in sim racing either. It's not as if an oval has 16 > completely different turns spread over 3.5 miles like an F1 course. If > people with more experience than me with the sim can't do it, then

something

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> is wrong with the sim. > > A replay shouldn't be too hard to find if I'm wrong though, right? > > David G Fisher > > > >

Tom Pabst 22 Aug 2002 20:19 UTC↳ reply to Bamadano #101649

Bam...... I don't recall what setup we were using.....but if you are referring to the lap times I wrote, those are easily within reach of the "fast" setup for WG in N2K2. That setup is actually a pretty good "race" setup.....it mildly pushes....which is what you want for a race set up were you need to have a stable car "out of the racing line" ....which is more important in road racing since you spend a lot of time during the race, out of the groove. TP "Bamadano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I can recall many > >laps at WG during online practice sessions with George Sandman, running > >entire laps completely door to door with him....yes - side by side for > >entire laps...multiple laps. We did this so we could practice runningside > >by side....in preparation for a league we were competing in together!Yes, > >we banged each other from time to time....yes we crashed from time totime. > >But after practicing this for 20 hours (over four sessions online) or > >so.....we could run multiple laps, side by side...without touching each > >other....and these were low 18's high 17's......we were running fullspeed. > > You did this with the default <fast> setup Tom? > dan

Larry 22 Aug 2002 20:53 UTC↳ reply to John Simmons #101662

John, Any chance the 5pm can be changed to 6pm ? Thanks for the practice server! -Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Okay. I've configured DeMONS to run three practice races per day on > Tuesday and on Thursday. > > The Servers will show up as follows: > > Time Server > ----------- ------------- > 2pm eastern RASCAR (43-A) > 5pm eastern RASCAR (43-B) > 8pm eastern RASCAR (43-C) > > > Each surver is 25% race length, no cautions, double-file restarts. The > track for this week is Bristol-Night. > > (I hope this works - grin). > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Larry 22 Aug 2002 20:53 UTC↳ reply to David G Fisher #101663

Dare I ask how it went ? -Larry "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:W5G89.117030$[email hidden]...

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> We've already raced Bristol twice actually. > > David G Fisher > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fLF89.181974$UU1.32746@sccrnsc03... > > EldredP.... > > > > Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that have > some > > level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into their > leagues > > (unless its a novice league). > > > > You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors at Michigan....with > > four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide! Now....you want > to > > race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing > > machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! > > > > Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race (say,

right > > before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of green > flag > > racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there is somuch > > objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. One for the veteran > > r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately after > for > > "all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the old timers > > like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...evenYmenard! > > There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single day,they > > just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Bet youcould > > get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a veterans-only > > RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be > > better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would get themback > > involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in the"all > > levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys! Isn't that > > what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping thenew

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> > guys? > > > > But what the hell....I give up. > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <lYx89.113365$me6.15625@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" > > <[email hidden]> > > > writes: > > > > > > >I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying to

race

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> at > > > >Bristol. ROFLMAO! > > > > > > Why not? *Other* leagues do it... > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

Tom Pabst 22 Aug 2002 21:00 UTC↳ reply to David G Fisher #101666

Heck David....as soon as I can get 43 of the best sim drivers together....have them race together for a year or two....I'll have that replay coming right up! -:) I think we are talking "hypothetical" here, aren't we? Do you really need a replay to prove it is possible.....I wonder? I don't think the Michigan race (real) had guys running two feet apart, 3-wide all day long. You get in and out of "packs" like that and you can do it for a few laps. But, even in a real race car....that's hairy stuff and you don't like doing it any more than you have to. Of course, watching the race on TV....you are always seeing a "group" running that way....but the "group" isn't the same cars all day long. The "banking" on the track has nothing to do with the ability to stay in your lane......when racing on ovals. The skill and technique used to do this at Talladega....is the same one you'd use at Loudon. You do this primarily with throttle control and its somewhat easy to do once you get the hang of it. "Racing" on oval tracks isn't primarily about "driving skills." Its about pit strategy and saving your equipment (through driver conservation and having the right setup)........over the course of the entire race. The actual driving part....is pretty simple to attain. That's not the same in road racing.....but you attempt in road racing to get to the same place, i.e., you are relatively fast on all laps, without having to "think about" the racing line or the fast way around the track. You just get to that point faster on an oval. There's nothing about the sim's inadequacies that limit this part of oval racing in N2K2, IMHO. After reading your response here, I decided to go run some practice laps at Michigan. I wanted to see what you were talking about ....regarding the various lanes (lines) being so different in speed. I spent an hour and a half there.......just before coming back here to make this reply to you. I didn't find the high, mid and low lines to be all that different in speed.....maybe a 1/10 of second was the spread on my lap times. I did have to spend more time figuring out what the car wanted.....in the high line, to get its lap time equivalent to the low line.....but that was pretty normal/expected. For my driving style, the fastest line was the mid-line.....for the "Fast" setup. It pushed too much in the low line to be quick there....but others may not have the same experience with that setup. The "entry" wasn't so bad (push wise), but I kept having to left foot brake to hold the nose down on the yellow at the apex and was late with the throttle coming off. The middle line was where I found that "Fast" setup liked to run. I could drive in pretty hard...roll out of the throttle slowly....and let the car have its head through the apex and trackouts where smooth and early throttles. That's probably why I was a 10th quicker in that line than the other two. I struggled a little bit with getting the high line up to speed. The car wanted to be on the throttle very early into the turn.....I didn't figure out how to do this until I slowed my straight-line entry down. So, my technique then became to roll out of the throttle on the main straight a lot earlier than either of the other lines.......but only roll out of it to about 90% throttle.....then let the car roll-out for a bit and get back on the throttle modulation very early (no braking at all into the turns)....well before the apex. I saw apex speeds in the 6 to 8 mph range higher than the low line....with exits about 10 mph faster. Of course, I was taking the long way around so that didn't translate to a faster lap time over the middle line....but it was only about a 10th off. So, I don't know....but I didn't find the "lines" at Michigan to be harder than any other track to equivocate. That's just part of the standard practice routine of learning a new track (for racing....."qualifying" is a whole new game). David, how many sim drivers do you think spend time learning how to drive all three lines.....at the same lap time (window of 1/10th is always my goal....not always achieved...but its my practice goal to achieve that at every track)? So David, I issue a challenge to you. Go to a track you've never been to. Figure out how many "lines or lanes" it has (not all tracks have three lines....some (most) have only two....a few, like Darlington...have only one). Then, practice each until all three are producing lap times within about 1/10th of a second. Keep track of what you had to do to get those lap times equivocated, then come back and tell us. Or tell us, it can't be done. TP "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:waU89.121767$[email hidden]...

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> is wrong with the sim. > > A replay shouldn't be too hard to find if I'm wrong though, right? > > David G Fisher > > > >

Tom Pabst 22 Aug 2002 21:05 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101667

EldredP.... I want to answer you....but I'm out of time....so, I'll be back later today. TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <5KQ89.105141$983.122335@rwcrnsc53>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >At any of the N2K2 oval tracks, it would take us only a couple hours to > >accomplish the same as on a road course (we can do this at Sears too).You > >guys think you can go out an run some practice laps for a couple > >hours....and that's good enough to learn a track? No way! You can't do > >that......not in sim racing.....and certainly not in real-world racing! > > So how much time DOES it take? And as I've asked before(but haven't seenan > answer yet) - what can you learn in the 4th hour that you didn't learn inthe > first THREE? Bristol looks the same after 1000 laps than it did after 50. > We're talking about tracks with lap times of less that 40 seconds, for themost > part. I've also heard that sim racers often run MORE practice laps thanreal > drivers. We don't have to pay for gas and tires, we don't have to travelto > and from the track. We can run laps at Daytona for a couple of hours,then run > some at Phoenix in the next. We don't have to repair care that we tearup, and > don't have to recuperate from serious accidents. > > >And > >I bet you most of the r.a.s. RASCAR drivers don't even put in two hoursof > >prep and practice for your Saturday race! > > This, I'd agree with. I know *I* don't have that kind of time.. :-( > > >The problem for most sim > >drivers....they don't have enough time to do the practicerequired........in > >order for the simulation of their racing to approach anything like what > >real-world racing is like. > > Since you know and watch real-world drivers, what kind of practiceschedule DO > they have? Certainly they're not at the track driving 4 hours per day,every

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> day... > > Eldred > p.s. Yes, I'll call... > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

David G Fisher 22 Aug 2002 22:19 UTC↳ reply to Larry #101679

First race we had 3 yellows in 250 laps. Second race we had 14. You could always download the replays and have a look. http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar/ David G Fisher "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bbc99.934$[email hidden]...

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> Dare I ask how it went ? > > -Larry > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:W5G89.117030$[email hidden]... > > We've already raced Bristol twice actually. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:fLF89.181974$UU1.32746@sccrnsc03... > > > EldredP.... > > > > > > Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that have > > some > > > level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into their > > leagues > > > (unless its a novice league). > > > > > > You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors at Michigan....with > > > four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide! Now....you

want

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> > to > > > race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing > > > machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! > > > > > > Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race (say, > right > > > before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of green > > flag > > > racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there is so > much > > > objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. One for the veteran > > > r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately

after > > for > > > "all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the oldtimers

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> > > like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...even > Ymenard! > > > There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single day, > they > > > just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Bet you > could > > > get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a

veterans-only > > > RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be > > > better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would get them > back > > > involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in the > "all > > > levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys! Isn'tthat

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> > > what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping the > new > > > guys? > > > > > > But what the hell....I give up. > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > In article <lYx89.113365$me6.15625@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > >I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying to > race > > at > > > > >Bristol. ROFLMAO! > > > > > > > > Why not? *Other* leagues do it... > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > -- > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > >

Larry 23 Aug 2002 00:24 UTC↳ reply to Larry #101548

Tried at 8pm and 815pm. No Rascar Practice Server. I did notice that it is HELL getting logged in to Sierra right now. Maybe the server couldn't get in and quit trying ? -Larry "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bbc99.934$[email hidden]...

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after > > for > > > "all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the oldtimers

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Tim 23 Aug 2002 00:57 UTC↳ reply to Larry #101555

-- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Igf99.1653$[email hidden]... > Tried at 8pm and 815pm. No Rascar Practice Server. > > I did notice that it is HELL getting logged in to Sierra right now. Maybe > the server couldn't get in and quit trying ? > > -Larry > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bbc99.934$[email hidden]... > > Dare I ask how it went ? > > > > -Larry > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:W5G89.117030$[email hidden]... > > > We've already raced Bristol twice actually. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:fLF89.181974$UU1.32746@sccrnsc03... > > > > EldredP.... > > > > > > > > Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that have > > > some > > > > level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into their > > > leagues > > > > (unless its a novice league). > > > > > > > > You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors at Michigan....with > > > > four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide! Now....you > want > > > to > > > > race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing > > > > machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! > > > > > > > > Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race (say, > > right > > > > before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of green > > > flag > > > > racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there is so > > much > > > > objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. One for the veteran > > > > r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately > after > > > for > > > > "all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the old > timers > > > > like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...even > > Ymenard! > > > > There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single day, > > they > > > > just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Bet you > > could > > > > get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a > veterans-only > > > > RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be > > > > better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would get them > > back > > > > involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in the > > "all > > > > levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys! Isn't > that > > > > what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping the > > new > > > > guys? > > > > > > > > But what the hell....I give up. > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > In article <lYx89.113365$me6.15625@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > >I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying to > > race > > > at > > > > > >Bristol. ROFLMAO! > > > > > > > > > > Why not? *Other* leagues do it... > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > -- > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > > > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

EldredP 23 Aug 2002 01:37 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101570

In article <9ic99.41087$aA.10087@sccrnsc02>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>So David, I issue a challenge to you. Go to a track you've never been to. >Figure out how many "lines or lanes" it has (not all tracks have three >lines....some (most) have only two....a few, like Darlington...have only >one). Then, practice each until all three are producing lap times within >about 1/10th of a second. Keep track of what you had to do to get those lap >times equivocated, then come back and tell us. Or tell us, it can't be >done.

I know *I* couldn't do it. Even at Michigan, my laptimes might differ by as much as a second and a half between the lines. You said "The car wanted to be on the throttle very early into the turn.....I didn't figure out how to do this until I slowed my straight-line entry down." What does that mean? How do you know WHAT the car wanted? My car doesn't say a thing to me. It's giving me the silent treatment. :-) Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larry 23 Aug 2002 01:42 UTC↳ reply to Tim #101576

Yes, Tim ? -Larry "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WLf99.40727$[email hidden]...

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> > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Igf99.1653$[email hidden]... > > Tried at 8pm and 815pm. No Rascar Practice Server. > > > > I did notice that it is HELL getting logged in to Sierra right now.

Maybe

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> > the server couldn't get in and quit trying ? > > > > -Larry > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:bbc99.934$[email hidden]... > > > Dare I ask how it went ? > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:W5G89.117030$[email hidden]... > > > > We've already raced Bristol twice actually. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:fLF89.181974$UU1.32746@sccrnsc03... > > > > > EldredP.... > > > > > > > > > > Not trying to be a smartass here, but "leagues" have drivers that > have > > > > some > > > > > level of experience......most don't allow total beginners into

their > > > > leagues > > > > > (unless its a novice league). > > > > > > > > > > You guys couldn't stay out of each other's doors atMichigan....with > > > > > four-wide racing a piece of cake, the track is so wide!Now....you > > want > > > > to > > > > > race at Bristol....a place that's like racing inside a washing > > > > > machine....with the spin cycle turned on! No way, Jose'! > > > > > > > > > > Now, if you also ran a "veteran sim drivers only" RASCAR race(say, > > > right > > > > > before the all-comers RASCAR race) you'd have a better chance of > green > > > > flag > > > > > racing for more than three laps. I surely don't see why there isso

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> > > much > > > > > objection to having two RASCAR races on Saturday. One for the > veteran > > > > > r.a.s.'ers (an invite only event)....and one following immediately > > after > > > > for > > > > > "all levels" r.a.s.'ers. I know I'd love to race some of the old > > timers > > > > > like Tom Osborn and Mike Grandy and Don Wilshe....and, yes...even > > > Ymenard! > > > > > There's lots of these veterans that come to r.a.s. every single

day, > > > they > > > > > just don't make posts very often. But they are still here! Betyou > > > could > > > > > get them to come out of the woodwork and participate in a > > veterans-only > > > > > RASCAR race (maybe only twice a month for the vet race would be > > > > > better....keep it fresh???). And, guess what....that would getthem > > > back > > > > > involved in this sim community....maybe many of them would run in > the > > > "all > > > > > levels" race too (I would)....just to help out the new guys!Isn't

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> > that > > > > > what RASCAR is really all about? Promoting sim racing and helping > the > > > new > > > > > guys? > > > > > > > > > > But what the hell....I give up. > > > > > > > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > In article <lYx89.113365$me6.15625@sccrnsc01>, "Tom Pabst" > > > > > <[email hidden]> > > > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess I was laughing to hard at the thought of RASCAR trying

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> > > race > > > > at > > > > > > >Bristol. ROFLMAO! > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not? *Other* leagues do it... > > > > > > > > > > > > Eldred > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > > > > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > > > > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Tom Pabst 23 Aug 2002 04:39 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101505

Lol....EldredP..... You know, maybe we are just now getting to the bottom of what is a misunderstanding between us......about this "veterans only" racing and stuff. Maybe you are now just starting to get a hint of what I mean by a veteran sim driver. Just how "good" are they.....and what is my definition of "good" compared to yours.....or some others that have joined this discussion over the last week or so. The misunderstanding I think is mostly on my end. I have "assumed" you guys who are regulars on r.a.s. (but whose names I don't equate with being a veteran sim driver) know what it takes to perform at world-class levels in sim racing. I have maybe taken too much for granted......that's my fault. I assumed it was common knowledge among just about everyone in the sim community that "practice time" to learn a new track (from scratch) is from 30 to 60 hours....depending on how thorough and how skilled you are as a race driver. I know George Sandman puts in enormous amounts of seat time just to get ready for a league race at a track he has no experience at. Of course, in NASCAR sim racing....once you learn a track....you can "freshen" yourself for subsequent races with only a fraction of that time. And, every race you run in adds to your knowledge base for that track.....so your "freshening" time is reduced commensurately. EldredP write: "What does that mean? How do you know WHAT the car wanted? My car doesn't say a thing to me. It's giving me the silent treatment. :-)" EldredP, the race car talks to you. You are just not listening closely enough. It tells you what it wants from you as driver input....and it tells you what it doesn't like. It screams at you every second you are in the car......but the "words" are not a language you understand....until you've been racing for a fairly long period of time. And, in my opinion....some drivers are just naturally better at listening to their race cars than others. I am average or below average at it.....I just work at it harder to make up for that fact. The ability to equivocate multiple line lap times is pretty much a basic skill.....all pro drivers have it and its a given that you can do this. You guys really don't think the WC drivers are out there on the track "practicing" the racing line doing you? .....lol.... I hope not. Now, in road racing....your practice sessions have completely different goals. But there is still a fair amount of time learning what the car's performance is ....out of the racing line (fast line). Oh well, I'm kind of rambling on here.....sorry. Tom "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <9ic99.41087$aA.10087@sccrnsc02>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >So David, I issue a challenge to you. Go to a track you've never beento. > >Figure out how many "lines or lanes" it has (not all tracks have three > >lines....some (most) have only two....a few, like Darlington...have only > >one). Then, practice each until all three are producing lap times within > >about 1/10th of a second. Keep track of what you had to do to get thoselap > >times equivocated, then come back and tell us. Or tell us, it can't be > >done. > > I know *I* couldn't do it. Even at Michigan, my laptimes might differ byas

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> much as a second and a half between the lines. > > You said "The car wanted to be on the throttle very early into > the turn.....I didn't figure out how to do this until I slowed my > straight-line entry down." > > What does that mean? How do you know WHAT the car wanted? My car doesn't

say

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> a thing to me. It's giving me the silent treatment. :-) > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tom Pabst 23 Aug 2002 05:08 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101507

EldredP..... "Practice time"....isn't the same for all drivers. By definition, I mean. What I mean is, what somebody like a Dale Earnhardt would have to practice at Talladega, to get ready for a WC race couldn't possibly be compared to what a rookie sim driver would have to practice for his first online league race at Talladega. I think that's kind of obvious.....so much so, that it might seem that I'm making a joke of this.....but I'm not. Every racing coach....and every racing school I've ever been too......will tell you that you should never break the following cardinal rule about practice laps: "Never....never, never......roll out onto the track for a practice session without having a specific goal, or set of goals, that you are trying to achieve with those preciously few practice laps you get in real-world racing!" We sim drivers have it easy......we have such easy access to practice laps, we can afford to waste them with mindless lapping. A pro real-world race car driver would never do that......he/she would never even think of doing that! So...you ask the question, "How much practice does it take?" My answer is, "That depends on what your goals are." If you don't have any goals.....you can probably practice that in about two or three laps! .......lol...... If your goal is to be prepared for a 50% league racing in N2K2 (part of a season/league championship that you care about).....at a track you've no prior experience racing at......and you are competing against 42 "George Sandmans" or "Wolfgangs"......and you want to shoot for a top-10 finish.....then you are looking at 40 to 60 hours.....just to have a slight chance of attaining your goal of a "top-10" finish. At least, that's what my assessment of practice that I would need to do......for this same goal package. I'd be near 40 hours if it was a "fixed setup race" .....and at 60 + hours if it was an open setup race (again...at a track I'd never "learned" previously). And, I've been weekly sim racing for 5 + years......and real-world racing for almost 20 years now (although only 8 years of that was in full-season championship series racing). Heck, I'd allocate 4 hours or so just for "pitting sequence" practice alone. So...."How much time does it take to practice?" Sorry....I can't answer that question. Well, what I mean is I can answer it for me, but I can't answer it for you. Regards, Tom "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <5KQ89.105141$983.122335@rwcrnsc53>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >At any of the N2K2 oval tracks, it would take us only a couple hours to > >accomplish the same as on a road course (we can do this at Sears too).You > >guys think you can go out an run some practice laps for a couple > >hours....and that's good enough to learn a track? No way! You can't do > >that......not in sim racing.....and certainly not in real-world racing! > > So how much time DOES it take? And as I've asked before(but haven't seenan > answer yet) - what can you learn in the 4th hour that you didn't learn inthe > first THREE? Bristol looks the same after 1000 laps than it did after 50. > We're talking about tracks with lap times of less that 40 seconds, for themost > part. I've also heard that sim racers often run MORE practice laps thanreal > drivers. We don't have to pay for gas and tires, we don't have to travelto > and from the track. We can run laps at Daytona for a couple of hours,then run > some at Phoenix in the next. We don't have to repair care that we tearup, and > don't have to recuperate from serious accidents. > > >And > >I bet you most of the r.a.s. RASCAR drivers don't even put in two hoursof > >prep and practice for your Saturday race! > > This, I'd agree with. I know *I* don't have that kind of time.. :-( > > >The problem for most sim > >drivers....they don't have enough time to do the practicerequired........in > >order for the simulation of their racing to approach anything like what > >real-world racing is like. > > Since you know and watch real-world drivers, what kind of practiceschedule DO > they have? Certainly they're not at the track driving 4 hours per day,every

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> day... > > Eldred > p.s. Yes, I'll call... > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

David G Fisher 23 Aug 2002 05:54 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101513

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9ic99.41087$aA.10087@sccrnsc02... > Heck David....as soon as I can get 43 of the best sim drivers > together....have them race together for a year or two....I'll have that > replay coming right up! -:) > > I think we are talking "hypothetical" here, aren't we? Do you really needa > replay to prove it is possible.....I wonder? Yes, I want to see a replay. We can talk all day but eventually there needs to be proof that these things can be done. With such a huge and old online NASCAR community it should be easy to find. > I don't think the Michigan race (real) had guys running two feet apart, > 3-wide all day long. They were running like I described every time I looked. >> After reading your response here, I decided to go run some practice lapsat > Michigan. I wanted to see what you were talking about ....regarding the > various lanes (lines) being so different in speed. I spent an hour and a > half there.......just before coming back here to make this reply to you.I

Quoted text (8 lines)

> didn't find the high, mid and low lines to be all that different in > speed.....maybe a 1/10 of second was the spread on my lap times. I > > So David, I issue a challenge to you. Go to a track you've never been to. > Figure out how many "lines or lanes" it has (not all tracks have three > lines....some (most) have only two....a few, like Darlington...have only > one). Then, practice each until all three are producing lap times within > about 1/10th of a second. Keep track of what you had to do to get those

lap > times equivocated, then come back and tell us. Or tell us, it can't be > done. > > TP I don't know what times you were running there with the fast setup at 70 and no wind in testing. I can do a 39.9, and can string a bunch of 40.2's together. I'm absolutely slower if a take a mid or high line through the corner. If you don't hit the apex up against the apron you will lose a chunk of time. If you leave room for two other cars.....forget it. What kind of times were you doing? Also, testing by yourself is not nearly the same as running in traffic. As I said, the real guys were running side by side through the turns three deep as if they were nailed to a board and being rotated through the turn. They were just a few feet apart and the guys on the outside were just as fast as the ones on the inside. In the sim, you will push badly if you try this at Michigan. No way you will see two let alone three guys replicate what I saw on TV. Let's just assume I stink and don't have the ability to do what I saw the real drivers do. There are guys who have been racing the Papy NASCAR sims for years. They have been racing in leagues agaisnt the same drivers for years. They've put in God knows how many hours on these tracks and racing each other. There are so many N2002 leagues around. It should take two seconds to point me to a replay that looks just like what I saw Sunday if the sim has got it right. It's that simple really. I'm not really ripping the sim either. It's about as good as it gets. I'm just saying that something really leaps out at me when I watch the real races and then compare it to N2002, especially at certain types of tracks. David G Fisher

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> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:waU89.121767$[email hidden]... > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:0KT89.106695$983.123502@rwcrnsc53... > > > David.... > > > > > > I think I know what you are getting at........i.e., will an online

races > > > ever mimic a real Winston Cup race.....in terms of bunching of cars, > > running > > > side by side and nose to tail for hundreds of laps, etc. Probablynot. > > > But, if you consider that most online races are done with amateur > > > drivers.....then to blame the sim directly for this isn't totally > > accurate, > > > either. Would it be possible to have a sim race in N2K2 that would be > > > closer to the real thing. "Yes"...its possible, if you could get 43of > > the > > > best N2K2 sim drivers together....let them race each other week after > week > > > for several years.....knowing each other's habits and racingstyle....if > > all > > > that could be done, my contention is the N2K2 race would be about 95% > > > accurate to the real world Cup race (the sim is 95% accurate to thereal > > > world racing). > > > > > > If I was using N2K2 as a "training device/simulator" for a real world > > > Winston Cup race. I would want to run against (well programmed) AIcars > > > rather than human drivers...of the sort we find in online racingtoday. > > The > > > AI mimic the top pro drivers much closer than any group of currenthuman

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> > sim > > > drivers. Again, this is not the fault of the sim.....you know what I > > mean? > > > > > > I did think you were talking about a more narrow issue, that of being > able > > > (or unable) run side by side for multiple laps....in today's version

of > > > N2K2. My contention is that if you get the right group of sim drivers > > > together, equally prepared and practiced....and they can do that allday > > > long......at any track. I thought you were saying that wasn'tpossible.

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> > > Guess I wasn't clear about that? > > > > > > Good discussion, though.....don't you think? > > > > > > Tom > > > > Actually, I don't think an N2002 replay of even 20 laps of what I saw > Sunday > > in the real Michigan race can be presented to me even though there are > guys > > who have been racing each other in Papy NASCAR sims for years now. > > > > At some tracks, sure you can run side by side three wide. Tracks with > steep > > banking or the shorter tracks. It's easy. At tracks like Michigan

though, > > the real drivers were going three and four wide through the turns, oneor > > two feet apart, glued to the track, and were just as fast on the outside > > line. I am positive that I won't see anyone recreate this in N2002. This > > will make some people mad, but I don't find N2002 to be the hardestthing

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> > I've ever done in sim racing either. It's not as if an oval has 16 > > completely different turns spread over 3.5 miles like an F1 course. If > > people with more experience than me with the sim can't do it, then > something > > is wrong with the sim. > > > > A replay shouldn't be too hard to find if I'm wrong though, right? > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > >

EldredP 23 Aug 2002 15:32 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101449

In article <Wqj99.216833$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Every racing coach....and every racing school I've ever been too......will >tell you that you should never break the following cardinal rule about >practice laps: "Never....never, never......roll out onto the track for a >practice session without having a specific goal, or set of goals, that you >are trying to achieve with those preciously few practice laps you get in >real-world racing!" We sim drivers have it easy......we have such easy >access to practice laps, we can afford to waste them with mindless lapping. >A pro real-world race car driver would never do that......he/she would never >even think of doing that! > >So...you ask the question, "How much practice does it take?" My answer is, >"That depends on what your goals are." If you don't have any goals.....you >can probably practice that in about two or three laps! .......lol......

My goal is getting faster. In my other avocation(bowling) the main work is on 'performance' goals, as opposed to 'outcome' goals. A performance goal might be hitting your strike target in 25 out of 30 attempts. An outcome goal might be winning a tournament. Most people get too caught up in performance goals, which is bad. You don't have any control over what others do. If you average 210, but lose to someone who averaged 215, have you failed? If you had an outcome goal, yes. If you had the performance goal, no. As long as you execute your game plan to your satisfaction, you have a CHANCE at a good outcome, so you've suceeded. So for racing, I'm trying to get faster, as a performance goal. That might be runing 39's at Michigan for a full fuel run, or it might be running the entire race without a spin. My final finishing position is not within my control. I might be racing guys who can't run 3 laps without finding a wall, or I might be running with drivers from another planet. A top-10 or top-5 would be NICE, but it's not guaranteed, even if I run 5,000 laps. I've had races where I ran *flawlessly*. No spins, no offs, no incidents. Most consistent, etc. But, I still finished 2(or more) laps down. I'm not happy with that, although some might be. My speed needs to improve. I *can* run an entire race without a spin. I can do that at the majority of tracks in a couple different sims. But the speeds I need to run to ensure that are much lower than everyone else's to meet the same goal. I've had the same length of time doing sim-racing as you have, maybe longer. I've been running sims since indy500, and leagues since Indycar Racing(1994?) I don't have any real racing experience, besides a Skip Barber course. Did I explain it well enough? I'm not always good at getting my point across... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP 23 Aug 2002 15:32 UTC↳ reply to Tom Pabst #101448

In article <x0j99.126859$983.194579@rwcrnsc53>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>The misunderstanding I think is mostly on my end. I have "assumed" you guys >who are regulars on r.a.s. (but whose names I don't equate with being a >veteran sim driver) know what it takes to perform at world-class levels in >sim racing. I have maybe taken too much for granted......that's my fault. >I assumed it was common knowledge among just about everyone in the sim >community that "practice time" to learn a new track (from scratch) is from >30 to 60 hours....depending on how thorough and how skilled you are as a >race driver.

Well, *nobody* I know has that kind of time to practice in a week for a league race... :-( I know George Sandman puts in enormous amounts of seat time >just to get ready for a league race at a track he has no experience at. Of >course, in NASCAR sim racing....once you learn a track....you can "freshen" >yourself for subsequent races with only a fraction of that time. And, every >race you run in adds to your knowledge base for that track.....so your >"freshening" time is reduced commensurately. Even if I practiced an hour per day, it would take a month to put in that time for ONE track. Given that, I don't see people being able to run that much practice with races taking place every week. I guess I'll never get there... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tim 23 Aug 2002 18:20 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101476

I'll beg to differ about just how much practice time some people put in... When I started in N1, I ran dega only. Yep, classic degahead :) $900 phone bills and one very exciting day ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TALLADEGA FASTLAP RECORDS Tim White World Record Holder @ 197.186 mph Validated: Tue Oct 15 10:03:21 1996 Eastern Daylight Time Rank IVGA# Name Home League Lap Time Speed Sec.Back Config* ---- ----- -------------------- -------------------- --------- -------- ------- -------- ------- 1 2580 Tim White Philadelphia PA NONE 0:49.328 197.186 0.000 CH N/A 2 2397 Josh Carr Pigeon Forge, TN IVGA 0:49.342 197.130 0.014 -- -/- 3 0001 Joe Farr Hoffman Estates, Il INL 0:49.345 197.118 0.017 -- -/- 4 3129 Charlie Mone Mechanicville, NY IVGA 0:49.408 196.867 0.080 -- -/- 5 0028 Thomas A Agopsowicz Edmonton AB Canada IVGA 0:49.435 196.759 0.107 -- -/- 6 2052 Bob Peters Cincinnati, Oh IVGA 0:49.484 196.565 0.156 -- -/- 7 3051 Tim Yuhasz Edmonton AB Canada IVGA 0:49.492 196.533 0.164 -- -/- 8 2008 Vinnie Palmese Pocono Pines PA NRL 0:49.495 196.521 0.167 -- -/- 9 2435 Travis Robeson Pigeon Forge, TN IVGA 0:49.568 196.232 0.240 -- -/- 10 2359 Alec A. Flory Columbus, Ohio CSNC96 0:49.594 196.129 0.266 -- -/- 11 2318 Shawn Kosloff Alexandria, VA NRL 0:49.640 195.947 0.312 -- -/- 12 0003 Jim Janssen Sunnyvale, CA INL 0:49.645 195.927 0.317 -- -/- 13 4304 Roberto Tamaso Sao Paulo,Brasil NONE 0:49.654 195.892 0.326 CH L/A 14 2234 Mike Grandy Charlotte NC NASSCAR 0:49.656 195.884 0.328 -- -/- 15 2475 Art Chamberland Charlotte, NC NASSCAR 0:49.660 195.868 0.332 -- -/- 16 1234 Jacob Butner Pinnacle NC INRL 0:49.667 195.840 0.339 -- -/- 17 0004 Julian Data Virginia Beach, VA INL 0:49.681 195.785 0.353 -- -/- 18 2577 Rich Mastro Middleboro, Mass ivga 0:49.690 195.750 0.362 -- -/- 19 2503 Michael Day Canandaigua, NY IVGA 0:49.711 195.667 0.383 -- -/- 20 0043 Mike Koon Lakeland, FL NASSCAR 0:49.724 195.616 0.396 -- -/- 21 2004 Jeff Cashmore Milwaukee, WI IVGA 0:49.727 195.604 0.399 -- -/- 22 2149 P. B. Dentone Cold Spring Harbor, INL 0:49.728 195.600 0.400 -- -/- 23 2365 Lamar Covington Athens, Al. IVGA 0:49.731 195.588 0.403 -- -/- 24 2014 Alan Rosenthal Stafford, VA NRL 0:49.732 195.584 0.404 -- -/- 25 2524 Marcus Pereira Belo Horizonte, Bra IVGA 0:49.732 195.584 0.404 -- -/- 26 2579 RG Dillon Alexandria Va. NONE 0:49.732 195.584 0.404 -- -/- 27 4287 Steve Elliott Surrey BC NONE 0:49.741 195.549 0.413 CH L/A 28 3312 Jeff Euclid Madison, WI IVGA 0:49.742 195.545 0.414 FG N/A 29 3901 Brian Choi Pasadena, CA NONE 0:49.743 195.541 0.415 -- -/- 30 3216 Rick Johnson Duluth, Minnesota SSCRA 0:49.752 195.506 0.424 -- -/- 31 2038 Bill Cranston Ottawa, Ontario NASSCAR 0:49.754 195.498 0.426 -- -/- 32 2939 Justin Fegers Mound, MN NASSCAR 0:49.761 195.470 0.433 CG N/A 33 3822 D Crow Mcdonough, GA IVGA 0:49.778 195.404 0.450 FG L/A 34 2251 Jeff Perlin Laurel, Md IVGA 0:49.780 195.396 0.452 FG N/A 35 3006 Jean Leclerc Lasalle, Qc IVGA 0:49.781 195.392 0.453 -- -/- 36 2489 Ed Wernsing Zephyrhills, Fl. IVGA 0:49.786 195.372 0.458 -- -/- 37 2266 Tim Collier Little Rock, AR NASSCAR 0:49.794 195.341 0.466 -- -/- 38 2020 Rusty Whitson Gray, TN INL 0:49.799 195.321 0.471 CG L/A 39 2419 Donnie Burnett Travelers Rest S.C INL 0:49.804 195.302 0.476 -- -/- 40 2009 AL ROGERS Fort Myers, Florida IVGA 0:49.809 195.282 0.481 -- -/- 41 2003 Dane Johnson Murray, UT NCAR 0:49.823 195.227 0.495 -- -/- 42 2664 Scott Dillon Lewiston,ID NASSCAR 0:49.824 195.223 0.496 -- -/- 43 2391 Chris Weidner Matthews NC IVGA 0:49.824 195.223 0.496 -- -/- 44 2878 Wesley Turner Eastport, Me NONE 0:49.826 195.215 0.498 -- -/- 45 2316 Mike Finn Talladega, AL. IVGA 0:49.827 195.212 0.499 -- -/- 46 2085 Ted Gambill Jonesville, NC NASSCAR 0:49.834 195.184 0.506 -- -/- 47 2446 Jim Covey Huntsville, AL, IVGA 0:49.837 195.172 0.509 -- -/- 48 2518 Russ Boom Huntsville, AL IVGA 0:49.839 195.165 0.511 -- -/- 49 4378 John Oddone Pennsauken, NJ NONE 0:49.839 195.165 0.511 CH L/A 50 2138 J.D. Farr Madison, WI NRL 0:49.843 195.149 0.515 -- -/- * Config codes: [Car] [Tires] [Steering/Throttle] C - Chevy G - Goodyear L - Linear Steering F - Ford H - Hoosier N - Nonlinear Steering P - Pontiac A - Analog Throttle (pedals or joystick) B - Buttons K - Keyboard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now I can suppose like everything else in life, you get out of something what you put in. Even bowling :) Sweet. When N2 came out I made the commitment to get seriously involved with it but the one year Hawaii was up while I ran only dega, everyone else who was competitive with me ran all the other tracks as well. This basically put me a year behind. So I spent the next year of my life pretty much doing nothing but N2. That meant listening to others, asking questions, researching the setups on the net, improving my hardware only accoring to what the sim needed, and ... serious seat time. Joe Farr had put out a manual about N1 tracks that I downloaded. At that time I had just started N2, and felt I had Charlotte down. Being and Earnhardt fan, I thought it would be 'cool' to hit his favorite tracks, giving me even more incentive. Note. I remember those early days. I would watch a race on Sunday and dayem if they didnt start talking about things I new, and could apply, in the sim! Haven't had that feeling in a long long while and I miss it that excitement of finding something I loved doing and was so new at. Anyway, each time I went to a track, at this point just Dega, Charlotte, and Rockingham, I would go to Joe's track guides as I started each track. During Rockingham, I got bored and started really reading all of the track guides. Then I got to Wilkesboro. To this day, I think Wilkesboro saved my sim racing life hehe. Almost the first thing Joe said about Wilkes almost jumped off the page; "One of the more difficult tracks in N1. If you can get this track down you'll be able to master any track the game has to offer." Needless to say the manual is hitting the floor as I scrambling to load up N2. Man did I suck at that track. I thought braking at the Rock, or Bristol was tough, geez. Up until that point I had been spending approximately 15+ hours a week on testing, and after a few weeks, felt pretty good about Charlotte. After about 6 weeks for the Rock. But it took about 2 months of 40+ hours a week to get competitve (with AI) at Wilkes. I knew my hours spent only by accident. I had sold my small software company and was coming to an end with the consulting so my daily log was still in play. Clearly I had the time to put in. But I also could've spend that time having a normal life. Nope. When I got good at Wlikes, then bored at Wilkes but not by design I went back to the Rock. My times immediately dropped almost a second, with the same setups I had created just two months earlier! Apparently the brakes mean something in racing afterall lol I modified the setups at Rock a bit, tested some more, then went to Charlotte. BAM! Way faster with the same Charlotte setups. (Note to Tim: Work the short tracks, then move up to faster tracks.) From there on out I always improved and I could always measure that improvement solely on seat time. Any time I would hit a wall, I would go back to Wilkes and get an attitude adjustment :) This was 1997-1998. Since then the one thing I've learned is that there is NO replacement for seat time. Today, yes, I spend only about an hour maybe two, getting used to a setup that I will have to use in someones fixed setup race. But even though that setup is foreign to me I have been on that track so many times, with so many different setups, different weather, different types of drivers, different leagues. There isn't really anything I haven't seen. And that is not being uppity. I have never been the fastest. My being comfortable behind the wheel only comes from seat time, practicing and racing. In that order. Setting up a car with an open setup is and will always be a lot of work. It is a compliment to any sim for that to be true. And there will always be some new kid just getting the game and spending all His free time learning it. And that will never change as well. I truly miss having to setup a car and work my ass off for it but N2002 just too much took that advantage away so I dont do it anymore. But put it all in the hands of the driver with fixed setups and all I do is run a few laps, 100 or so, play with the springs in my ECCI and the wheel lock in the game and then race. No one, and I mean no one, can do that without putting in the time. Plain n simple. If someone tells you they just bought the game and they never practice and they kick your behind let em talk, cause thats all that is. Fwiw, adjusting the wheel lock should not be construed as altering a fixed setup. The very reason Papyrus made it adjustable is exactly because some people want to spend only $50 on a plastic wheel, and others who once thought of life as how it pertained to sim racing, spend thousands :) -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... driver. > > Well, *nobody* I know has that kind of time to practice in a week for a league > race... :-( > > Even if I practiced an hour per day, it would take a month to put in that time > for ONE track. Given that, I don't see people being able to run that much > practice with races taking place every week. > I guess I'll never get there... :-( >

Larry 23 Aug 2002 18:26 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101480

Eldred, Maybe you're just trying _too_ hard ? Sometimes you have to go slower to go faster. Maybe you're just trying to hard, and going in too deep ? -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <Wqj99.216833$[email hidden]>, "TomPabst" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Every racing coach....and every racing school I've ever beentoo......will > >tell you that you should never break the following cardinal rule about > >practice laps: "Never....never, never......roll out onto the track for a > >practice session without having a specific goal, or set of goals, thatyou > >are trying to achieve with those preciously few practice laps you get in > >real-world racing!" We sim drivers have it easy......we have such easy > >access to practice laps, we can afford to waste them with mindlesslapping. > >A pro real-world race car driver would never do that......he/she wouldnever > >even think of doing that! > > > >So...you ask the question, "How much practice does it take?" My answeris, > >"That depends on what your goals are." If you don't have anygoals.....you > >can probably practice that in about two or three laps! .......lol...... > > My goal is getting faster. In my other avocation(bowling) the main workis on > 'performance' goals, as opposed to 'outcome' goals. A performance goalmight > be hitting your strike target in 25 out of 30 attempts. An outcome goalmight > be winning a tournament. Most people get too caught up in performancegoals, > which is bad. You don't have any control over what others do. If youaverage > 210, but lose to someone who averaged 215, have you failed? If you had an > outcome goal, yes. If you had the performance goal, no. As long as you > execute your game plan to your satisfaction, you have a CHANCE at a good > outcome, so you've suceeded. > > So for racing, I'm trying to get faster, as a performance goal. Thatmight be > runing 39's at Michigan for a full fuel run, or it might be running theentire > race without a spin. My final finishing position is not within mycontrol. I > might be racing guys who can't run 3 laps without finding a wall, or Imight be > running with drivers from another planet. A top-10 or top-5 would beNICE, but > it's not guaranteed, even if I run 5,000 laps. > I've had races where I ran *flawlessly*. No spins, no offs, no incidents. > Most consistent, etc. But, I still finished 2(or more) laps down. I'mnot > happy with that, although some might be. > My speed needs to improve. I *can* run an entire race without a spin. Ican > do that at the majority of tracks in a couple different sims. But thespeeds I > need to run to ensure that are much lower than everyone else's to meet thesame > goal. > > I've had the same length of time doing sim-racing as you have, maybelonger. > I've been running sims since indy500, and leagues since IndycarRacing(1994?)

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> I don't have any real racing experience, besides a Skip Barber course. > Did I explain it well enough? I'm not always good at getting my point > across... :-( > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tom Pabst 24 Aug 2002 05:09 UTC↳ reply to Tim #101250

Wow Tim....I almost forgot about this string and didn't come back in here. I would have missed this post from you and that would have been a shame. You know what it takes....clearly.....to be competitive in sim racing.....you've lived it. I was totally pleased to read what you had to say.....and thought it was great to see that "records" log.......even recognized almost half the names on that list (bringing back some fun and cool memories). Looks like you started sim racing about a year before I did (I think). I started at the end of the N1 days....the Hawaii beta had ended about a month or two earlier....and N2 had just come out. I'm going totally off of memory...so I could be off a little on that timing. I wish I had the time to go back to those old league racing days.....spending every waking hour that I wasn't earning a living....practicing in N2....then N3 on TEN......lol. I did it because I loved it. The "league races"....were just an excuse to do the practicing! Don't you think? ....lol..... Anyway, its great to know some of the old guys are still around....even though we don't hear from them very often (that's a shame.....the sim community fragmentation as created). You'd be a "vet" I'd love to race with any time, any where, any track. It would be just a joy to race with you....win or lose. Regards, Tom "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:s1v99.41870$[email hidden]... I'll beg to differ about just how much practice time some people put in... When I started in N1, I ran dega only. Yep, classic degahead :) $900 phone bills and one very exciting day ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- TALLADEGA FASTLAP RECORDS Tim White World Record Holder @ 197.186 mph Validated: Tue Oct 15 10:03:21 1996 Eastern Daylight Time Rank IVGA# Name Home League Lap Time Speed Sec.Back Config* ---- ----- -------------------- -------------------- --------- -------- --- ---- -------- ------- 1 2580 Tim White Philadelphia PA NONE 0:49.328 197.186 0.000 CH N/A 2 2397 Josh Carr Pigeon Forge, TN IVGA 0:49.342 197.130 0.014 -- -/- 3 0001 Joe Farr Hoffman Estates, Il INL 0:49.345 197.118 0.017 -- -/- 4 3129 Charlie Mone Mechanicville, NY IVGA 0:49.408 196.867 0.080 -- -/- 5 0028 Thomas A Agopsowicz Edmonton AB Canada IVGA 0:49.435 196.759 0.107 -- -/- 6 2052 Bob Peters Cincinnati, Oh IVGA 0:49.484 196.565 0.156 -- -/- 7 3051 Tim Yuhasz Edmonton AB Canada IVGA 0:49.492 196.533 0.164 -- -/- 8 2008 Vinnie Palmese Pocono Pines PA NRL 0:49.495 196.521 0.167 -- -/- 9 2435 Travis Robeson Pigeon Forge, TN IVGA 0:49.568 196.232 0.240 -- -/- 10 2359 Alec A. Flory Columbus, Ohio CSNC96 0:49.594 196.129 0.266 -- -/- 11 2318 Shawn Kosloff Alexandria, VA NRL 0:49.640 195.947 0.312 -- -/- 12 0003 Jim Janssen Sunnyvale, CA INL 0:49.645 195.927 0.317 -- -/- 13 4304 Roberto Tamaso Sao Paulo,Brasil NONE 0:49.654 195.892 0.326 CH L/A 14 2234 Mike Grandy Charlotte NC NASSCAR 0:49.656 195.884 0.328 -- -/- 15 2475 Art Chamberland Charlotte, NC NASSCAR 0:49.660 195.868 0.332 -- -/- 16 1234 Jacob Butner Pinnacle NC INRL 0:49.667 195.840 0.339 -- -/- 17 0004 Julian Data Virginia Beach, VA INL 0:49.681 195.785 0.353 -- -/- 18 2577 Rich Mastro Middleboro, Mass ivga 0:49.690 195.750 0.362 -- -/- 19 2503 Michael Day Canandaigua, NY IVGA 0:49.711 195.667 0.383 -- -/- 20 0043 Mike Koon Lakeland, FL NASSCAR 0:49.724 195.616 0.396 -- -/- 21 2004 Jeff Cashmore Milwaukee, WI IVGA 0:49.727 195.604 0.399 -- -/- 22 2149 P. B. Dentone Cold Spring Harbor, INL 0:49.728 195.600 0.400 -- -/- 23 2365 Lamar Covington Athens, Al. IVGA 0:49.731 195.588 0.403 -- -/- 24 2014 Alan Rosenthal Stafford, VA NRL 0:49.732 195.584 0.404 -- -/- 25 2524 Marcus Pereira Belo Horizonte, Bra IVGA 0:49.732 195.584 0.404 -- -/- 26 2579 RG Dillon Alexandria Va. NONE 0:49.732 195.584 0.404 -- -/- 27 4287 Steve Elliott Surrey BC NONE 0:49.741 195.549 0.413 CH L/A 28 3312 Jeff Euclid Madison, WI IVGA 0:49.742 195.545 0.414 FG N/A 29 3901 Brian Choi Pasadena, CA NONE 0:49.743 195.541 0.415 -- -/- 30 3216 Rick Johnson Duluth, Minnesota SSCRA 0:49.752 195.506 0.424 -- -/- 31 2038 Bill Cranston Ottawa, Ontario NASSCAR 0:49.754 195.498 0.426 -- -/- 32 2939 Justin Fegers Mound, MN NASSCAR 0:49.761 195.470 0.433 CG N/A 33 3822 D Crow Mcdonough, GA IVGA 0:49.778 195.404 0.450 FG L/A 34 2251 Jeff Perlin Laurel, Md IVGA 0:49.780 195.396 0.452 FG N/A 35 3006 Jean Leclerc Lasalle, Qc IVGA 0:49.781 195.392 0.453 -- -/- 36 2489 Ed Wernsing Zephyrhills, Fl. IVGA 0:49.786 195.372 0.458 -- -/- 37 2266 Tim Collier Little Rock, AR NASSCAR 0:49.794 195.341 0.466 -- -/- 38 2020 Rusty Whitson Gray, TN INL 0:49.799 195.321 0.471 CG L/A 39 2419 Donnie Burnett Travelers Rest S.C INL 0:49.804 195.302 0.476 -- -/- 40 2009 AL ROGERS Fort Myers, Florida IVGA 0:49.809 195.282 0.481 -- -/- 41 2003 Dane Johnson Murray, UT NCAR 0:49.823 195.227 0.495 -- -/- 42 2664 Scott Dillon Lewiston,ID NASSCAR 0:49.824 195.223 0.496 -- -/- 43 2391 Chris Weidner Matthews NC IVGA 0:49.824 195.223 0.496 -- -/- 44 2878 Wesley Turner Eastport, Me NONE 0:49.826 195.215 0.498 -- -/- 45 2316 Mike Finn Talladega, AL. IVGA 0:49.827 195.212 0.499 -- -/- 46 2085 Ted Gambill Jonesville, NC NASSCAR 0:49.834 195.184 0.506 -- -/- 47 2446 Jim Covey Huntsville, AL, IVGA 0:49.837 195.172 0.509 -- -/- 48 2518 Russ Boom Huntsville, AL IVGA 0:49.839 195.165 0.511 -- -/- 49 4378 John Oddone Pennsauken, NJ NONE 0:49.839 195.165 0.511 CH L/A 50 2138 J.D. Farr Madison, WI NRL 0:49.843 195.149 0.515 -- -/- * Config codes: [Car] [Tires] [Steering/Throttle] C - Chevy G - Goodyear L - Linear Steering F - Ford H - Hoosier N - Nonlinear Steering P - Pontiac A - Analog Throttle (pedals or joystick) B - Buttons K - Keyboard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- Now I can suppose like everything else in life, you get out of something what you put in. Even bowling :) Sweet. When N2 came out I made the commitment to get seriously involved with it but the one year Hawaii was up while I ran only dega, everyone else who was competitive with me ran all the other tracks as well. This basically put me a year behind. So I spent the next year of my life pretty much doing nothing but N2. That meant listening to others, asking questions, researching the setups on the net, improving my hardware only accoring to what the sim needed, and ... serious seat time. Joe Farr had put out a manual about N1 tracks that I downloaded. At that time I had just started N2, and felt I had Charlotte down. Being and Earnhardt fan, I thought it would be 'cool' to hit his favorite tracks, giving me even more incentive. Note. I remember those early days. I would watch a race on Sunday and dayem if they didnt start talking about things I new, and could apply, in the sim! Haven't had that feeling in a long long while and I miss it that excitement of finding something I loved doing and was so new at. Anyway, each time I went to a track, at this point just Dega, Charlotte, and Rockingham, I would go to Joe's track guides as I started each track. During Rockingham, I got bored and started really reading all of the track guides. Then I got to Wilkesboro. To this day, I think Wilkesboro saved my sim racing life hehe. Almost the first thing Joe said about Wilkes almost jumped off the page; "One of the more difficult tracks in N1. If you can get this track down you'll be able to master any track the game has to offer." Needless to say the manual is hitting the floor as I scrambling to load up N2. Man did I suck at that track. I thought braking at the Rock, or Bristol was tough, geez. Up until that point I had been spending approximately 15+ hours a week on testing, and after a few weeks, felt pretty good about Charlotte. After about 6 weeks for the Rock. But it took about 2 months of 40+ hours a week to get competitve (with AI) at Wilkes. I knew my hours spent only by accident. I had sold my small software company and was coming to an end with the consulting so my daily log was still in play. Clearly I had the time to put in. But I also could've spend that time having a normal life. Nope. When I got good at Wlikes, then bored at Wilkes but not by design I went back to the Rock. My times immediately dropped almost a second, with the same setups I had created just two months earlier! Apparently the brakes mean something in racing afterall lol I modified the setups at Rock a bit, tested some more, then went to Charlotte. BAM! Way faster with the same Charlotte setups. (Note to Tim: Work the short tracks, then move up to faster tracks.) From there on out I always improved and I could always measure that improvement solely on seat time. Any time I would hit a wall, I would go back to Wilkes and get an attitude adjustment :) This was 1997-1998. Since then the one thing I've learned is that there is NO replacement for seat time. Today, yes, I spend only about an hour maybe two, getting used to a setup that I will have to use in someones fixed setup race. But even though that setup is foreign to me I have been on that track so many times, with so many different setups, different weather, different types of drivers, different leagues. There isn't really anything I haven't seen. And that is not being uppity. I have never been the fastest. My being comfortable behind the wheel only comes from seat time, practicing and racing. In that order. Setting up a car with an open setup is and will always be a lot of work. It is a compliment to any sim for that to be true. And there will always be some new kid just getting the game and spending all His free time learning it. And that will never change as well. I truly miss having to setup a car and work my ass off for it but N2002 just too much took that advantage away so I dont do it anymore. But put it all in the hands of the driver with fixed setups and all I do is run a few laps, 100 or so, play with the springs in my ECCI and the wheel lock in the game and then race. No one, and I mean no one, can do that without putting in the time. Plain n simple. If someone tells you they just bought the game and they never practice and they kick your behind let em talk, cause thats all that is. Fwiw, adjusting the wheel lock should not be construed as altering a fixed setup. The very reason Papyrus made it adjustable is exactly because some people want to spend only $50 on a plastic wheel, and others who once thought of life as how it pertained to sim racing, spend thousands :) -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... driver. > > Well, *nobody* I know has that kind of time to practice in a week for a league > race... :-( > > Even if I practiced an hour per day, it would take a month to put in that time > for ONE track. Given that, I don't see people being able to run that much > practice with races taking place every week. > I guess I'll never get there... :-( >

EldredP 24 Aug 2002 22:54 UTC↳ reply to Larry #101222

In article <P7v99.3378$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes: >Eldred, > >Maybe you're just trying _too_ hard ? > >Sometimes you have to go slower to go faster. Maybe you're just trying to >hard, and going in too deep ? Hehe... Sounds like a "no-win" situation. If I go slower I simply GET slower... Fuck it - I give up. I'll just have to enjoy(or get USED to) being in the last row of the grid all the time, and last of the running cars. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP 24 Aug 2002 22:54 UTC#529851

writes: Hehe... Sounds like a "no-win" situation. If I go slower I simply GET slower... *** it - I give up. I'll just have to enjoy(or get USED to) being in the last row of the grid all the time, and last of the running cars. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larry 24 Aug 2002 23:01 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #101225

Don't be so hard on yourself. It'll get better :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <P7v99.3378$[email hidden]>, "Larry"<[email hidden]>

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> writes: > > >Eldred, > > > >Maybe you're just trying _too_ hard ? > > > >Sometimes you have to go slower to go faster. Maybe you're just trying

to > >hard, and going in too deep ? > > Hehe... Sounds like a "no-win" situation. If I go slower I simply GET > slower... > Fuck it - I give up. I'll just have to enjoy(or get USED to) being in thelast

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> row of the grid all the time, and last of the running cars. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

grubbat 26 Aug 2002 01:01 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #100979

Save me a spot back there Eldred. I'll run with you any day of the week. grub "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <P7v99.3378$[email hidden]>, "Larry"<[email hidden]>

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> writes: > > >Eldred, > > > >Maybe you're just trying _too_ hard ? > > > >Sometimes you have to go slower to go faster. Maybe you're just trying

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> row of the grid all the time, and last of the running cars. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

David G Fisher 26 Aug 2002 09:28 UTC↳ reply to David G Fisher #101025

Still no replay? David G FIsher "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:u6k99.142356$[email hidden]...

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> > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9ic99.41087$aA.10087@sccrnsc02... > > Heck David....as soon as I can get 43 of the best sim drivers > > together....have them race together for a year or two....I'll have that > > replay coming right up! -:) > > > > I think we are talking "hypothetical" here, aren't we? Do you really

need > a > > replay to prove it is possible.....I wonder? > > Yes, I want to see a replay. We can talk all day but eventually thereneeds

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> to be proof that these things can be done. With such a huge and old online > NASCAR community it should be easy to find. > > > I don't think the Michigan race (real) had guys running two feet apart, > > 3-wide all day long. > > They were running like I described every time I looked. > > >> After reading your response here, I decided to go run some practice

laps > at > > Michigan. I wanted to see what you were talking about ....regarding the > > various lanes (lines) being so different in speed. I spent an hour anda > > half there.......just before coming back here to make this reply to you. > I > > didn't find the high, mid and low lines to be all that different in > > speed.....maybe a 1/10 of second was the spread on my lap times. I > > > > So David, I issue a challenge to you. Go to a track you've never beento. > > Figure out how many "lines or lanes" it has (not all tracks have three > > lines....some (most) have only two....a few, like Darlington...have only > > one). Then, practice each until all three are producing lap timeswithin

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> > about 1/10th of a second. Keep track of what you had to do to get those > lap > > times equivocated, then come back and tell us. Or tell us, it can't be > > done. > > > > TP > > I don't know what times you were running there with the fast setup at 70

and > no wind in testing. I can do a 39.9, and can string a bunch of 40.2's > together. I'm absolutely slower if a take a mid or high line through the > corner. If you don't hit the apex up against the apron you will lose achunk > of time. If you leave room for two other cars.....forget it. What kind of > times were you doing? > > Also, testing by yourself is not nearly the same as running in traffic. AsI > said, the real guys were running side by side through the turns three deep > as if they were nailed to a board and being rotated through the turn. They > were just a few feet apart and the guys on the outside were just as fastas > the ones on the inside. In the sim, you will push badly if you try this at > Michigan. No way you will see two let alone three guys replicate what Isaw

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> on TV. > > Let's just assume I stink and don't have the ability to do what I saw the > real drivers do. There are guys who have been racing the Papy NASCAR sims > for years. They have been racing in leagues agaisnt the same drivers for > years. They've put in God knows how many hours on these tracks and racing > each other. There are so many N2002 leagues around. It should take two > seconds to point me to a replay that looks just like what I saw Sunday if > the sim has got it right. It's that simple really. > > I'm not really ripping the sim either. It's about as good as it gets. I'm > just saying that something really leaps out at me when I watch the real > races and then compare it to N2002, especially at certain types of tracks. > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:waU89.121767$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:0KT89.106695$983.123502@rwcrnsc53... > > > > David.... > > > > > > > > I think I know what you are getting at........i.e., will an online > races > > > > ever mimic a real Winston Cup race.....in terms of bunching of cars, > > > running > > > > side by side and nose to tail for hundreds of laps, etc. Probably > not. > > > > But, if you consider that most online races are done with amateur > > > > drivers.....then to blame the sim directly for this isn't totally > > > accurate, > > > > either. Would it be possible to have a sim race in N2K2 that would

be > > > > closer to the real thing. "Yes"...its possible, if you could get 43 > of > > > the > > > > best N2K2 sim drivers together....let them race each other weekafter > > week > > > > for several years.....knowing each other's habits and racing > style....if > > > all > > > > that could be done, my contention is the N2K2 race would be about95% > > > > accurate to the real world Cup race (the sim is 95% accurate to the > real > > > > world racing). > > > > > > > > If I was using N2K2 as a "training device/simulator" for a realworld

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> > > > Winston Cup race. I would want to run against (well programmed) AI > cars > > > > rather than human drivers...of the sort we find in online racing > today. > > > The > > > > AI mimic the top pro drivers much closer than any group of current > human > > > sim > > > > drivers. Again, this is not the fault of the sim.....you know what

I > > > mean? > > > > > > > > I did think you were talking about a more narrow issue, that ofbeing > > able > > > > (or unable) run side by side for multiple laps....in today's version > of > > > > N2K2. My contention is that if you get the right group of simdrivers

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> > > > together, equally prepared and practiced....and they can do that all > day > > > > long......at any track. I thought you were saying that wasn't > possible. > > > > Guess I wasn't clear about that? > > > > > > > > Good discussion, though.....don't you think? > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > Actually, I don't think an N2002 replay of even 20 laps of what I saw > > Sunday > > > in the real Michigan race can be presented to me even though there are > > guys > > > who have been racing each other in Papy NASCAR sims for years now. > > > > > > At some tracks, sure you can run side by side three wide. Tracks with > > steep > > > banking or the shorter tracks. It's easy. At tracks like Michigan > though, > > > the real drivers were going three and four wide through the turns, one > or > > > two feet apart, glued to the track, and were just as fast on the

outside > > > line. I am positive that I won't see anyone recreate this in N2002.This

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> > > will make some people mad, but I don't find N2002 to be the hardest > thing > > > I've ever done in sim racing either. It's not as if an oval has 16 > > > completely different turns spread over 3.5 miles like an F1 course. If > > > people with more experience than me with the sim can't do it, then > > something > > > is wrong with the sim. > > > > > > A replay shouldn't be too hard to find if I'm wrong though, right? > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

EldredP 26 Aug 2002 18:07 UTC↳ reply to grubbat #100928

In article <[email hidden]>, "grubbat" <[email hidden]> writes: >Save me a spot back there Eldred. I'll run with you any day of the week. >grub Hehe..thanks. It won't be Mondays, though. I've quit the ISS league... Michigan showed me that I couldn't run with those guys. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

grubbat 26 Aug 2002 22:06 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #100888

Ill miss ya tonight and tomorrow night. Im not bashful. I can't run with them either but it helps me learn to move over when they are coming. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, "grubbat" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Save me a spot back there Eldred. I'll run with you any day of the week. > >grub > > Hehe..thanks. It won't be Mondays, though. I've quit the ISS league... > Michigan showed me that I couldn't run with those guys. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

John Simmons 01 Sep 2002 13:25 UTC↳ reply to Darf #99959

1) Some people try to think of a given tracks as "like" another one. California and Michigan are shaped pretty much the same and both offer a wide racing surface, but that is precisely where the similarities stop. The banking is radically different. 2) Each track's <fast> setup is different, despite any perceived similarities in track design. You have to approach each track/setup combo with a fresh pair of eyes. I have no problem getting within maybe half a second of the fastest times, but I'm typically a mid-pack practicer and qualifier. As we know, it's not how fast you are but how well you can mesh the setup and track into something you can drive with a degree of confidence. Knowing your limitations is a big part of doing well. Chances are very good that you will go faster during the race than you went in practice (I see this all the time), and that can only come about after becoming familiar with all of the aspects of driving at a given track. Given practice and a WHOLE lot of luck where avoiding accidents caused by others is concerned, even the slowest RASCAR driver should be able to squeeze out a top-5 finish every now and then. In article <3d6457e1$0$29911$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> IMHO the time it takes to learn a track can vary greatly from track to > track. > > Darf > > > > So how much time DOES it take? And as I've asked before(but haven't seen > an > > answer yet) - what can you learn in the 4th hour that you didn't learn in > the > > first THREE? Bristol looks the same after 1000 laps than it did after 50. > > > >

EldredP 01 Sep 2002 16:17 UTC↳ reply to John Simmons #99979

In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes: >As we know, it's not how fast you are but how well you can mesh the >setup and track into something you can drive with a degree of >confidence. Knowing your limitations is a big part of doing well. With the exception of Darlington and Sears Point, I have the confidence that I can get around the track without wrecking. I can get around Bristol also, but I'm so far off the pace at such a small track that I don't like racing there. >Given practice and a WHOLE lot of luck where avoiding accidents caused >by others is concerned, even the slowest RASCAR driver should be able to >squeeze out a top-5 finish every now and then. My *only* top-5 finish was the Phoenix race in April. Only 5 drivers started... :-( I've had a few finishes where I'm still on the lead lap, but I'm the LAST car on the lead lap. I even ran a bunch of practice for this race, hoping it would improve my result. Didn't help - you were faster in your badly damaged car than I was in a car without a scratch on it. Grrr.... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

grubbat 02 Sep 2002 05:16 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #99938

You kicked my butt at the California race Eldred!! Way to go. Of course, that may not be saying much, but it means a lot to me and that's all that matters. grub "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, JohnSimmons

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> <[email hidden]> writes: > > >As we know, it's not how fast you are but how well you can mesh the > >setup and track into something you can drive with a degree of > >confidence. Knowing your limitations is a big part of doing well. > > With the exception of Darlington and Sears Point, I have the confidence

that I > can get around the track without wrecking. I can get around Bristol also,but > I'm so far off the pace at such a small track that I don't like racingthere.

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> > >Given practice and a WHOLE lot of luck where avoiding accidents caused > >by others is concerned, even the slowest RASCAR driver should be able to > >squeeze out a top-5 finish every now and then. > > My *only* top-5 finish was the Phoenix race in April. Only 5 drivers > started... :-( > I've had a few finishes where I'm still on the lead lap, but I'm the LAST

car > on the lead lap. I even ran a bunch of practice for this race, hoping itwould > improve my result. Didn't help - you were faster in your badly damagedcar

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> than I was in a car without a scratch on it. > Grrr.... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP 02 Sep 2002 13:37 UTC↳ reply to grubbat #99740

In article <[email hidden]>, "grubbat" <[email hidden]> writes: >You kicked my butt at the California race Eldred!! Way to go. Of course, >that may not be saying much, but it means a lot to me and that's all that >matters. >grub And how badly torn up was your car? Before your incident, I could barely keep you in SIGHT... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

grubbat 02 Sep 2002 17:34 UTC↳ reply to EldredP #99855

Actually, my car was not torn up. I put myself at the rear because i punted Jan. I punted Scott earlier and thought that I was just a fluke. But after rolling into the turn and hitting the brakes, I still could not control the closure rate. Result: I punt him. NO damage to my car though. Like I said, good driving. Earlier in the year, I might have been able to catch up with you. As it was, you beat me and I think that was a result of good driving on your part. How many times did you spin out? None. I did once all on my own. grum "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, "grubbat" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >You kicked my butt at the California race Eldred!! Way to go. Of course, > >that may not be saying much, but it means a lot to me and that's all that > >matters. > >grub > > And how badly torn up was your car? Before your incident, I could barely

keep

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> you in SIGHT... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.