LFS..AI self learning....rather amazing

Hi, Just started messing around with things and i notcied the AI is getting better and better. So i installed a clean version and just let one AI drive.. He started out with laptimes longer than 2 minutes... Driving like an old tart.. In my "regular" version they're down to 1.37.xx...and i bet they will get even faster... I have no idea yet what exactly is going on...if the AI is actually teaching itself or if the AI sorta looks at the lines from the human driver and incorporates that....but this sure is rather amazing... This sim is getting more and more jawdropping Willem

/slap myself That was of course before i put the clean version levels to 'pro' aswell... But still...clean LFS version AI's first lap on pro settings over 1.43.. Against 1.37s they can do now... On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:31:45 +0200, Willem <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Hi, > >Just started messing around with things and i notcied the AI is >getting better and better. >So i installed a clean version and just let one AI drive.. >He started out with laptimes longer than 2 minutes... >Driving like an old tart.. >In my "regular" version they're down to 1.37.xx...and i bet they will >get even faster... >I have no idea yet what exactly is going on...if the AI is actually >teaching itself or if the AI sorta looks at the lines from the human >driver and incorporates that....but this sure is rather amazing... >This sim is getting more and more jawdropping > >Willem

"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > /slap myself > Nascar Heat had this 'learning' ai about two years ago.(or whenever that title came out.) dave henrie

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:58:43 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> /slap myself >> > Nascar Heat had this 'learning' ai about two years ago.(or whenever that >title came out.) >dave henrie >

Hi, is it 'learning" or 'auto-ajusting' AI ?

"Sebastien Tixier" <stixier@wanadoo[NO_SPAM].fr> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:58:43 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > > >"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> /slap myself > >> > > Nascar Heat had this 'learning' ai about two years ago.(or whenever

that

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> >title came out.) > >dave henrie > > > > Hi, > > is it 'learning" or 'auto-ajusting' AI ?

How about 'copying?(GPL is self adjusting, so I thought I was being clever by NOT mentioning that too.) If you take a new track, the AI will most likely be slow as molasses. This is more evident in the mods like the CART or IRL Heats which have huge speed increases. But if you take the track and run about 10 solo laps the AI will take the best of that and pattern not only it's speed but it's lines as well. Thus if you did what I did and repeatedly cut the corner on a D shape track like Texas, the AI will divebomb down to do the same...not very friendly if you are trying to sneak underneath a car at that point. dave henrie > >

Hmmm..played nascar heat...but not all that much so i never noticed it there. Anyways...the AI in LFS does not only 'learn' from the human drivers.. maybe it does aswell but have to figure that out later. I'm now letting it run for a few hours to see what will happen. Again..a clean LFS version in which i never drove and sofar the single AI that's driving around is improving his laptime consistantly..he's down to 1.38s now....started at around 1.43 On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:17:42 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Sebastien Tixier" <stixier@wanadoo[NO_SPAM].fr> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:58:43 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> /slap myself >> >> >> > Nascar Heat had this 'learning' ai about two years ago.(or whenever >that >> >title came out.) >> >dave henrie >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> is it 'learning" or 'auto-ajusting' AI ? > > How about 'copying?(GPL is self adjusting, so I thought I was being >clever by NOT mentioning that too.) If you take a new track, the AI will >most likely be slow as molasses. This is more evident in the mods like the >CART or IRL Heats which have huge speed increases. But if you take the >track and run about 10 solo laps the AI will take the best of that and >pattern not only it's speed but it's lines as well. > Thus if you did what I did and repeatedly cut the corner on a D shape >track like Texas, the AI will divebomb down to do the same...not very >friendly if you are trying to sneak underneath a car at that point. >dave henrie >> >> >

I think the way to reset the AI's knowledge is to rename them. I did that once at some point last night, and saw a bunch of "AI first time" messages in the upper left hand corner of the screen at the start. I guess that means the AI is learning the track again. I can't remember if the messages appeared on the next race after renaming the AI. -- Doug Appleyard To reply, myname is dougappleyard -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ -------------------- Usenet Newsgroup Service

On 21 Aug 2002 17:29:09 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>I think the way to reset the AI's knowledge is >to rename them. I did that once at some point last >night, and saw a bunch of "AI first time" messages >in the upper left hand corner of the screen at the start. >I guess that means the AI is learning the track again. >I can't remember if the messages appeared on the next race >after renaming the AI.

Interesting. I wonder if the hold grudges? I was racing on the GPL server early this morning and I swear that after a lap or two of tight racing, the AI car was intentionally bumping me throughout the race. It would be interesting if that is a learned behavior, and you could create a series of drivers and actually have them develop personalities as you race each other. Jason ----- GPLRank 24.50 N2002Rank -12.995

Actually, now that I think about it, these chaps probably know a thing or two about adaptive AI, having worked with Peter Molyneux on Black and White. Taking that into account, I actually would not be remotely surprised if there were a "personality" element to the AI cars, in addition to gradually learning and adapting to the track. Jason On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:10:51 GMT, [email hidden] (jason moyer) wrote:

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>On 21 Aug 2002 17:29:09 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: > >>I think the way to reset the AI's knowledge is >>to rename them. I did that once at some point last >>night, and saw a bunch of "AI first time" messages >>in the upper left hand corner of the screen at the start. >>I guess that means the AI is learning the track again. >>I can't remember if the messages appeared on the next race >>after renaming the AI. > >Interesting. I wonder if the hold grudges? > >I was racing on the GPL server early this morning and I swear that >after a lap or two of tight racing, the AI car was intentionally >bumping me throughout the race. It would be interesting if that is a >learned behavior, and you could create a series of drivers and >actually have them develop personalities as you race each other. > >Jason > >----- >GPLRank 24.50 >N2002Rank -12.995

----- GPLRank 24.50 N2002Rank -12.995

Yes, the ai is learning. Probably does it steal drivinglines from you and remember them, aswell as doing some own work. (where to brake etc) the data is stored in data/knw for each ai player. btw, the ai seems to use the same physics as we do from looking at the forces and inputs to the car!. very nice. I watched the ai do some nice overtakings at t1 btw =) "Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi, > > Just started messing around with things and i notcied the AI is > getting better and better. > So i installed a clean version and just let one AI drive.. > He started out with laptimes longer than 2 minutes... > Driving like an old tart.. > In my "regular" version they're down to 1.37.xx...and i bet they will > get even faster... > I have no idea yet what exactly is going on...if the AI is actually > teaching itself or if the AI sorta looks at the lines from the human > driver and incorporates that....but this sure is rather amazing... > This sim is getting more and more jawdropping > > Willem

> btw, the ai seems to use the same physics as we do from looking at the > forces and inputs to the car!. very nice. > > I watched the ai do some nice overtakings at t1 btw =) That was something that many people complained about with GPL when it first came out - the fact that the AI seemed to have their own dodgy physics...

Ok, in the data/knw folder the ais "learn" how to drive the car for each time you race them. It seems like the ai steals and learns the best lines to corner, aswell as it learns when to brake when to throttle, if a passing is doable, aswell as it can make misstakes sometimes. Very fun!. To reset the ai's knowledge, just erase the ai knw-file for the right driver. If you rename the ai, i guess you will get a new one, since it does a new knw file too i think. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Actually, now that I think about it, these chaps probably know a thing > or two about adaptive AI, having worked with Peter Molyneux on Black > and White. Taking that into account, I actually would not be remotely > surprised if there were a "personality" element to the AI cars, in > addition to gradually learning and adapting to the track. > > Jason >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes: >Actually, now that I think about it, these chaps probably know a thing >or two about adaptive AI, having worked with Peter Molyneux on Black >and White. Taking that into account, I actually would not be remotely >surprised if there were a "personality" element to the AI cars, in >addition to gradually learning and adapting to the track. > If you let the AI drivers practice for long enough and keep a close eye on them, they'll eventually pull into the pits, get out of the car, sneak behing the garages and take a crap. Might even pick it up and throw it at you. Don McCorkle

On 22 Aug 2002 11:20:36 GMT, [email hidden] (Woodie 83) wrote: >If you let the AI drivers practice for long enough and keep a close eye on >them, they'll eventually pull into the pits, get out of the car, sneak behing >the garages and take a crap. Might even pick it up and throw it at you. I noticed that. They seem to develop a mean temperament if you smack them a lot too. =) Jason ----- GPLRank 24.50 N2002Rank -12.995

As well as GPL 4 years ago. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:78M89.18776$aA.5985@sccrnsc02... > > "Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > /slap myself > > > Nascar Heat had this 'learning' ai about two years ago.(or wheneverthat > title came out.) > dave henrie > >

Uhmmm....well....being a GPL fan i would like to state that the 'I' in GPL's AI should be left out. but imo that system does not qualify as There is a self improving element there aswell.....i know the GPL system cause i've worked with the files when creating my own track....but not by a long shot as good as it gets in LFS. Willem (getting sick of himself praising LSF but can't keep himself from doing it anways) On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:48:10 -0500, "Wayne Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>As well as GPL 4 years ago. > > >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:78M89.18776$aA.5985@sccrnsc02... >> >> "Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > /slap myself >> > >> Nascar Heat had this 'learning' ai about two years ago.(or whenever >that >> title came out.) >> dave henrie >> >> >

>"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote > Uhmmm....well....being a GPL fan i would like to state that the 'I' > in GPL's AI should be left out. 4 years ago nothing even came close the AI quality of GPL. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

<snip> > If you let the AI drivers practice for long enough and keep a close eye on > them, they'll eventually pull into the pits, get out of the car, sneakbehing > the garages and take a crap. Might even pick it up and throw it at you.<snip> Ouch! So it isn't dirt they are throwing at me at the rallycross track..... Jon Andersen, used to like the rallycross track....

<snip> > 4 years ago nothing even came close the AI quality of GPL.<snip> ..... not even human drivers..... <g> Jon Andersen

In article <nKb99.6925$[email hidden]>, ymenard <[email hidden]> writes >>"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote >> Uhmmm....well....being a GPL fan i would like to state that the 'I' >> in GPL's AI should be left out. > >4 years ago nothing even came close the AI quality of GPL. > In what respect? The more you watch the AI the more predictable they become. The only thing they've ever been good at is outbraking human drivers into corners and that has nothing to do with their AI ability, just their different physics modelling. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

I never liked the GPL ai, they dont see you, smash into your rear.. when they crash, they just rotate on the spot with some wierd magic, and continue.. etc etc.. its even worse then cheaters that shortcuts!. "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <nKb99.6925$[email hidden]>, ymenard > <[email hidden]> writes > >>"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> Uhmmm....well....being a GPL fan i would like to state that the 'I' > >> in GPL's AI should be left out. > > > >4 years ago nothing even came close the AI quality of GPL. > > > > In what respect? The more you watch the AI the more predictable they > become. The only thing they've ever been good at is outbraking human > drivers into corners and that has nothing to do with their AI ability, > just their different physics modelling. > -- > Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

Frank didn't say the AI in GPl were good, just that they were better than what was available 4 years ago. I can't think of a racing sim from 1998 or 1999 that had better AI. Jason On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 23:03:39 GMT, "Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I never liked the GPL ai, they dont see you, smash into your rear.. when >they crash, they just rotate on the spot with some wierd magic, and >continue.. etc etc.. its even worse then cheaters that shortcuts!. > > >"Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <nKb99.6925$[email hidden]>, ymenard >> <[email hidden]> writes >> >>"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote >> >> Uhmmm....well....being a GPL fan i would like to state that the 'I' >> >> in GPL's AI should be left out. >> > >> >4 years ago nothing even came close the AI quality of GPL. >> > >> >> In what respect? The more you watch the AI the more predictable they >> become. The only thing they've ever been good at is outbraking human >> drivers into corners and that has nothing to do with their AI ability, >> just their different physics modelling. >> -- >> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) >> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email >> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me >> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77 > >

----- GPLRank 24.50 N2002Rank -12.995

In article <[email hidden]>, jason moyer <[email hidden]> writes >Frank didn't say the AI in GPl were good, just that they were better >than what was available 4 years ago. I can't think of a racing sim >from 1998 or 1999 that had better AI. > >Jason > Guess it was the word 'quality' that threw me. :)

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>On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 23:03:39 GMT, "Andreas Nystrom" ><[email hidden]> >wrote: > >>I never liked the GPL ai, they dont see you, smash into your rear.. when >>they crash, they just rotate on the spot with some wierd magic, and >>continue.. etc etc.. its even worse then cheaters that shortcuts!. >> >> >>"Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in >message >>news:[email hidden]... >>> In article <nKb99.6925$[email hidden]>, >ymenard >>> <[email hidden]> writes >>> >>"Willem" <[email hidden]> wrote >>> >> Uhmmm....well....being a GPL fan i would like to state that the 'I' >>> >> in GPL's AI should be left out. >>> > >>> >4 years ago nothing even came close the AI quality of GPL. >>> > >>> >>> In what respect? The more you watch the AI the more predictable they >>> become. The only thing they've ever been good at is outbraking human >>> drivers into corners and that has nothing to do with their AI ability, >>> just their different physics modelling.

-- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77