Driving view in sims

Hi All Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the direction of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight ahead. For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be looking slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight ahead at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. Cheers Ian, TT man

"Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi All > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in thedirection > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > ahead. > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would belooking > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straightahead > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. > > Cheers > Ian, TT man Ian, I think that Microsoft Cart Precision Racing tried something like this, although I found it was a little odd. Its definitely something to consider. All the best, Ash http://www.siroccoracing.com

On 22 Aug 2002 17:24:25 +0200, Ian George <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Hi All > >Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if >one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the direction >of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you >drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight >ahead. > >For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be looking >slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight ahead >at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this.

Many sims do that, including LFS, I believe.

"Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi All > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the direction > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > ahead.

I think that would be nice but very difficult to implement. I guess you could strap a meter to a drivers helmet and build a model based on that. A few sims have emulated g-forces (in varying degrees of success) on the drivers head under braking, turning etc. Done well it can make a game much more immersive. Thinking GPL and more recently LFS with regards to this. > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be looking > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight ahead > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. As mentioned in another post, Cart Precision Racing but it was a "turn it off quick" option for many simracers. The first time I saw it was I think an Amiga game (or maybe c64) called ferrari formula 1 where your view would move in rough proportion to the amount you turn the wheel. Fun game, but it crashed a lot. I don't think software is capable of knowing where any given driver would need to be looking at any particular point on the track. I mean maybe you are looking at your passenger screaming rather than resolutely staring in the direction of travel while applying armfuls of opposite lock. Maybe I go overboard. IMO it's more important to provide a stable view and allow the driver to scan the environment as required without having to compensate for the software's guesswork. iksteh

Yes MS Cart did do it. And yes I turned it off straight away as well. I found it threw me out heaps. Darf

You can do it now in F1-2002. Check the High Gear forum for details, but basically, you can map the look left/right function to wheel rotation and set the maximum glance angle in the PLR file. The POV follows wheel rotation nicely doing this, but you need to keep the max glance angle very low (mine's at 5 degrees) since it's a kludge and not speed-sensitive. Actually works a lot better than CPR's rotating POV did. SB "Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ak30hs$mtm$[email hidden]... > > "Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Hi All > > > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightenedif

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> > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the > direction > > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > > ahead. > > > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be > looking > > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight > ahead > > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. > > > > Cheers > > Ian, TT man > > Ian, > > I think that Microsoft Cart Precision Racing tried something like this, > although I found it was a little odd. Its definitely something to

consider. > > All the best, > Ash > http://www.siroccoracing.com > >

George This is an aspect of sim racing that has been tried in the past without much success. But technology has moved on since CPR and it's time to look into it again. I spoke to the Chris West about this very subject at Goodwood, and he assures me that he's planning on looking into this. I believe he's even been in touch with a hardware manufacture, so there's hope at least. Now, most in this NG will tell you that such a system would be impossible to implement, but what do they know? Nothing, is the short answer. Gerry

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:24:52 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote: >I spoke to the Chris West about this very subject at Goodwood, and he >assures me that he's planning on looking into this. When?

"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Gc899.124052$[email hidden]...

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> You can do it now in F1-2002. Check the High Gear forum for details, but > basically, you can map the look left/right function to wheel rotation and > set the maximum glance angle in the PLR file. The POV follows wheel > rotation nicely doing this, but you need to keep the max glance angle very > low (mine's at 5 degrees) since it's a kludge and not speed-sensitive. > Actually works a lot better than CPR's rotating POV did. > > SB >

This sounds interesting actually. I think that even a small amount might be useful to fill in the "gaps" between real-life and sim racing. I will be considering these things carefully in the future for my sim. All the best, Ash http://www.siroccoracing.com

rrevved wrote:

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> > On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:24:52 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I spoke to the Chris West about this very subject at Goodwood, and he > >assures me that he's planning on looking into this. > > When?

Lunchtime I believe it was, just before Ralf Schumacher turned up to sign autographs. Why is the time so important?

On 22 Aug 2002 17:24:25 +0200, Ian George <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Hi All > >Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if >one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the direction >of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you >drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight >ahead. > >For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be looking >slightly sideways, following the corner,

That's when oversteering. You often understeer though, and then the car velocity's direction is right where you're NOT looking <g>. A pointing to the best-line would perhaps work, but these things often go haywire when the car does nasty things (like spinning). Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > rrevved wrote: > > > > On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:24:52 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]>wrote:

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> > > > >I spoke to the Chris West about this very subject at Goodwood, and he > > >assures me that he's planning on looking into this. > > > > When? > > Lunchtime I believe it was, just before Ralf Schumacher turned up to > sign autographs. > > Why is the time so important?

Ah Gerry, I never met you. I was there at that time aswell, he didnt look too pleased to be there did he? :) (ralf) Ash

Cool; it's most helpful spotting the apexes of hairpins. I think an ideal solution would be user-settable options for max high-speed and low-speed glance angles, with an adjustable geometric curve ramping the angle up as speed dropped so the big angle gradually kicked in at hairpin or pit speeds; just like in RL (real life, that is; nobody get excited... ;-) ). As long as it's fully tweakable by users, no reason for anyone to gripe. SB "Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ak33ob$o0i$[email hidden]... > > "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Gc899.124052$[email hidden]... > > You can do it now in F1-2002. Check the High Gear forum for details,but > > basically, you can map the look left/right function to wheel rotationand > > set the maximum glance angle in the PLR file. The POV follows wheel > > rotation nicely doing this, but you need to keep the max glance anglevery

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> > low (mine's at 5 degrees) since it's a kludge and not speed-sensitive. > > Actually works a lot better than CPR's rotating POV did. > > > > SB > > > > > This sounds interesting actually. I think that even a small amount might

be

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> useful to fill in the "gaps" between real-life and sim racing. I will be > considering these things carefully in the future for my sim. > > All the best, > Ash > http://www.siroccoracing.com > >

You could always just throw in something like /if rotation rate > X shut eyes and all other orifices /endif SB "Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <snip> > A pointing to the best-line would perhaps work, but these things often > go haywire when the car does nasty things (like spinning).

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:32:49 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>rrevved wrote: >> >> On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:24:52 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >I spoke to the Chris West about this very subject at Goodwood, and he >> >assures me that he's planning on looking into this. >> >> When? > >Lunchtime I believe it was, just before Ralf Schumacher turned up to >sign autographs. > >Why is the time so important?

Maybe I was unclear. I wasn't so interested in when one of the Wests announced they were going to look into it. I was asking about when it would be implemented in their upcoming-any-day-now sim.

Ashley McConnell wrote: > Ah Gerry, I never met you. I was there at that time aswell, he didnt look > too pleased to be there did he? :) (ralf) hehe, no he didn't. But they weren't QUIT ready for him were they? I remember think 'What a petulant little pick!' but I suppose he'd been running around doing that stuff all morning and just wanted to go the lunch. But that's just the lot of a modern F1 pilot. <SIGH> It's a shit business, I'm glade I got out when I did. <INSINCERE GRIN> Gerry

rrevved wrote:

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> >> >I spoke to the Chris West about this very subject at Goodwood, and he > >> >assures me that he's planning on looking into this. > >> > >> When? > > > >Lunchtime I believe it was, just before Ralf Schumacher turned up to > >sign autographs. > > > >Why is the time so important? > > Maybe I was unclear. I wasn't so interested in when one of the Wests > announced they were going to look into it. I was asking about when > it would be implemented in their upcoming-any-day-now sim.

I don't know. Gerry

"Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi All > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in thedirection > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > ahead. > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would belooking > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straightahead > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. I tried this in my own sim, but I found it to be very disorienting and actually made driving a whole lot more difficult. It feels very odd when your "virtual head" isn't under your control. IMO, a wide field of view (70 degrees or more) with a view position that reacts to lateral and longitudinal acceleration is a better alternative - you'll see enough of the road on both sides, and get a good sense of speed as well. On the other hand, one might get used to it after some practice. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have it as an optional feature. Or maybe it could only kick in at low speeds, when you need to negotiate a very tight corner that's out of the normal field of view, kind of like the GPL steering hack. :-) Petri Blomqvist

Hi all, Why not let "the driver" look to the racing line ?? Mathew Petri Blomqvist <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ak3icc$jdk$[email hidden]... > > "Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Hi All > > > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightenedif

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> > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the > direction > > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > > ahead. > > > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be > looking > > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight > ahead > > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. > > I tried this in my own sim, but I found it to be very disorienting and > actually made driving a whole lot more difficult. It feels very odd when > your "virtual head" isn't under your control. IMO, a wide field of view

(70 > degrees or more) with a view position that reacts to lateral and > longitudinal acceleration is a better alternative - you'll see enough ofthe > road on both sides, and get a good sense of speed as well. > > On the other hand, one might get used to it after some practice. Ofcourse, > it wouldn't hurt to have it as an optional feature. Or maybe it could only > kick in at low speeds, when you need to negotiate a very tight cornerthat's > out of the normal field of view, kind of like the GPL steering hack. :-) > > Petri Blomqvist > > >

>"Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in thedirection > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > ahead. Again, what we need is some sort of mouse-control for our head (which would still react to the G forces on screen and independent from the car's movement on the chassis). That would be a true revolution. Well just anything that would control the X and Y axis for the tilt and left/right rotation of the head. And perhaps even something that would make it bank. Now we could map this to any sort of VR system with head googles (it's still "hot", Tom). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

ymenard wrote: > Again, what we need is some sort of mouse-control for our head http://www.dansdata.com/trackir.htm The technology is here already. Gerry

Well, I was going to stay completely out of this string because when I first read it, I thought the "premise" was so ridiculous.....that it wouldn't make it past three replies before completely dying off. When I opened the string again tonight (I first saw it this morning).....I was totally taken back by the number of replies. I still think the premise is completely silly......but maybe I'm missing something? So, I want to ask a question (or two): What are you guys thinking you will accomplish with this except confusing your brain? You can't do this in real life (in a race car or anywhere else).....so why is it necessary to do it in a sim racing environment to improve "driver immersion?" If I get a sensible answer to this.....I'll have more to say. TP "Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi All > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in thedirection > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > ahead. > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would belooking > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straightahead > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. > > Cheers > Ian, TT man

What's 'so ridiculous' about controlling the POV (virtual drivers head) with a head mounted tracking device? > What are you guys thinking you will accomplish with this except confusing > your brain? You can't do this in real life (in a race car or anywhere > else)..... What????

I don't think it does in LFS.. that steering wheel seems to stay in the exact same spot the whole race. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 22 Aug 2002 17:24:25 +0200, Ian George <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Hi All > > > >Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightenedif > >one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in thedirection > >of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > >drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > >ahead. > > > >For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would belooking > >slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straightahead > >at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. > > Many sims do that, including LFS, I believe. > >

Or wait until "Widescreen" PC monitors come out :) Or have support for 3 monitor setups. aww yeah Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Mathew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ak3ptm$jn6$[email hidden]...

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> Hi all, > > Why not let "the driver" look to the racing line ?? > > Mathew > Petri Blomqvist <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ak3icc$jdk$[email hidden]... > > > > "Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Hi All > > > > > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be

heightened > if > > > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the > > direction > > > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > > > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just lookstraight

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> > > ahead. > > > > > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be > > looking > > > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight > > ahead > > > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like

this.

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> > > > I tried this in my own sim, but I found it to be very disorienting and > > actually made driving a whole lot more difficult. It feels very odd when > > your "virtual head" isn't under your control. IMO, a wide field of view > (70 > > degrees or more) with a view position that reacts to lateral and > > longitudinal acceleration is a better alternative - you'll see enough of > the > > road on both sides, and get a good sense of speed as well. > > > > On the other hand, one might get used to it after some practice. Of > course, > > it wouldn't hurt to have it as an optional feature. Or maybe it could

only

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> > kick in at low speeds, when you need to negotiate a very tight corner > that's > > out of the normal field of view, kind of like the GPL steering hack. :-) > > > > Petri Blomqvist > > > > > > > >

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lpk99.3626$[email hidden]... > Well, I was going to stay completely out of this string because when Ifirst > read it, I thought the "premise" was so ridiculous.....that it wouldn'tmake > it past three replies before completely dying off. When I opened thestring > again tonight (I first saw it this morning).....I was totally taken backby

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> the number of replies. > > I still think the premise is completely silly......but maybe I'm missing > something? So, I want to ask a question (or two): > > What are you guys thinking you will accomplish with this except confusing > your brain? You can't do this in real life (in a race car or anywhere > else).....so why is it necessary to do it in a sim racing environment to > improve "driver immersion?" > > If I get a sensible answer to this.....I'll have more to say. > > TP > >

Tom, You cant look at a corner's apex in real life? You can't turn your head in real life to look at a guy trying to pass you? I think you got the wrong end of the stick. Ash http://www.siroccoracing.com

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:08:45 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>ymenard wrote: > >> Again, what we need is some sort of mouse-control for our head > >http://www.dansdata.com/trackir.htm > >The technology is here already.

I've one of these, works great in IL-2. I think however that in a racing sim you'll only want to use the headtracking along the X-axis. Remco

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:53:43 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You could always just throw in something like > >/if rotation rate > X > shut eyes and all other orifices >/endif LOL! Yes, like the redout in flightsims, a blackout when you spin, hehe. Would be good for the framerates! ;-) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:35:47 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote: >What's 'so ridiculous' about controlling the POV (virtual drivers head) >with a head mounted tracking device? Umm... POV turns as you turn your head? Unless the monitor changes it's position according to the head movement, then I'd say it's pretty ridiculous... I'd go with the POV turning slightly (15-20 degrees maybe, could be user adjustable) towards the direction of the car's movement, ie. not tied to the steering wheel obviously... now that I think about it, doesn't Insane have this feature in one or two driving cameras? I think it was tied to the wheel movement though. - Igor -

Ian George <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Hi All > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened if > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the direction > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > ahead.

also consider car movement up and down (pitch ?). when going downhill, the image on the screen goes up a bit, and vice versa. (or is it the other way around?) in gpl this could make use of the letterbox format without loosing any of the image. it may add something to the experience, or not. something to try out. OT bit: just this morning i read (in 'the tipping point') about an experiment when people nodding their heads tended to have agreement to what they were hearing at that time, and people turning their head (side to side) tended to disagree. head movement part of the experiment was unrelated to what they were hearing. so i reckon the up/down thing will catch on, and no one will like the left/right one! dr martin.

Hi Tom, Maybe I wasnt clear enough, although most of the other guys managed to figure it out:) I just think it should be possible for the developers to play with as an "option". Driving home last night, I chucked my car around on the way home( 10km of twisty road over a small mountain) and one's looking direction follows the "line", rather than the bonnet. It could be disorienting in a sim, perhaps, but maybe worth trying. One's head is part of a dynamic system which includes the car, and can be modeled. I simrace using a projector, which gives a realistic feel to most sims, but I think some sort of head movement, if well implemented, could make it even better. Or, maybe not. Cheers Ian "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:lpk99.3626$[email hidden]:

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> Well, I was going to stay completely out of this string because when I > first read it, I thought the "premise" was so ridiculous.....that it > wouldn't make it past three replies before completely dying off. When > I opened the string again tonight (I first saw it this morning).....I > was totally taken back by the number of replies. > > I still think the premise is completely silly......but maybe I'm > missing something? So, I want to ask a question (or two): > > What are you guys thinking you will accomplish with this except > confusing your brain? You can't do this in real life (in a race car or > anywhere else).....so why is it necessary to do it in a sim racing > environment to improve "driver immersion?" > > If I get a sensible answer to this.....I'll have more to say. > > TP

Jussi 'Igor' Koukku <[email hidden]> writes:

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> On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:35:47 +0100, Gerry Aitken > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >What's 'so ridiculous' about controlling the POV (virtual drivers head) > >with a head mounted tracking device? > > Umm... POV turns as you turn your head? Unless the monitor changes > it's position according to the head movement, then I'd say it's pretty > ridiculous...

I don't think you actually turn your head with these things. as I understand it you shift it slightly to the left/right, and the view rotates. a bit weird, for sure, but IMHO it sounds like it could work pretty good. > I'd go with the POV turning slightly (15-20 degrees maybe, could be > user adjustable) towards the direction of the car's movement, ie. not > tied to the steering wheel obviously... like Ruud said, it's a bad idea when you're sliding. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 gnus don't kill people. gnus-summary-lower-score kills people.

Keep in mind that with this head tipping in a real car your also experiencing gforces. Your inner ear tells your brain the motions and such. In a game there would be no sense of this and thus it may become more awkward and unrealistic. Sims can only so far simulate visual and audio components but there is much more to life than these senses. "Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi Tom, > > Maybe I wasnt clear enough, although most of the other guys managed to > figure it out:) I just think it should be possible for the developers to > play with as an "option". Driving home last night, I chucked my cararound > on the way home( 10km of twisty road over a small mountain) and one's > looking direction follows the "line", rather than the bonnet. It could be > disorienting in a sim, perhaps, but maybe worth trying. One's head is part > of a dynamic system which includes the car, and can be modeled. > > I simrace using a projector, which gives a realistic feel to most sims,but > I think some sort of head movement, if well implemented, could make iteven

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> better. > > Or, maybe not. > > Cheers > Ian > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:lpk99.3626$[email hidden]: > > > Well, I was going to stay completely out of this string because when I > > first read it, I thought the "premise" was so ridiculous.....that it > > wouldn't make it past three replies before completely dying off. When > > I opened the string again tonight (I first saw it this morning).....I > > was totally taken back by the number of replies. > > > > I still think the premise is completely silly......but maybe I'm > > missing something? So, I want to ask a question (or two): > > > > What are you guys thinking you will accomplish with this except > > confusing your brain? You can't do this in real life (in a race car or > > anywhere else).....so why is it necessary to do it in a sim racing > > environment to improve "driver immersion?" > > > > If I get a sensible answer to this.....I'll have more to say. > > > > TP > >

On 23 Aug 2002 14:17:47 +0200, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Jussi 'Igor' Koukku <[email hidden]> writes: >> On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:35:47 +0100, Gerry Aitken >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> I'd go with the POV turning slightly (15-20 degrees maybe, could be >> user adjustable) towards the direction of the car's movement, ie. not >> tied to the steering wheel obviously... > >like Ruud said, it's a bad idea when you're sliding.

A nice example: start Racer (0.5.0beta5), select the Fer312, view 0 (press 0). This has 'follow_velocity' on. Then spin. :)) This points the camera in the velocity direction and is nice to get some simple movements, until you spin. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Tom, Assuming you're addressing the turning POV in general and not the mouse thingy: In tight hairpins (like the last corner at SP), it better enables you to visualize your apex and exit line, without compromising your car control. You surely do not keep your gaze pinned at hood center in real life in slow 180 degree turns. While you can, of course, simply look at a different point on the screen in a sim, FOV limitations of the monitors the majority of us play on limit the view ahead to an unrealistic one. Allowing POV to follow wheel rotation in such situations changes this for the better. I've messed with it a good bit in F1-2002 and speak from recent experience. But this relates only to low speeds, and I agree that large POV changes at speed are wildly disorienting. Thus my suggestion for settable rotational limits and damping them down to zero as speeds rise. That's an important point. Most of the guys on the HG forum have discovered that the larger angles are indeed NOT good for general use, as I did in about 2 seconds. As said, mine's about 5 degrees at the moment, which is a compromise since it's not speed-sensitive in F1-2002. Ideally it would be less at high speed and a more at very low speeds. Bottom line is that I think it can be a positive addition if done properly and with full user-adjustability. That has yet to be done. Cheers, SB PS - Do you have any experience with bike sims? They pretty much all use a moving POV that's not locked to the chassis in an attempt to mimic the rider crawling around on the bike. It's a bit different at first, but after a short adjustment, I always choose that view over one locked to the bike. Much more realistic, imho. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lpk99.3626$[email hidden]... > Well, I was going to stay completely out of this string because when Ifirst > read it, I thought the "premise" was so ridiculous.....that it wouldn'tmake > it past three replies before completely dying off. When I opened thestring > again tonight (I first saw it this morning).....I was totally taken backby

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> the number of replies. > > I still think the premise is completely silly......but maybe I'm missing > something? So, I want to ask a question (or two): > > What are you guys thinking you will accomplish with this except confusing > your brain? You can't do this in real life (in a race car or anywhere > else).....so why is it necessary to do it in a sim racing environment to > improve "driver immersion?" > > If I get a sensible answer to this.....I'll have more to say. > > TP > > > > > > "Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Hi All > > > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be heightened

if

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> > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the > direction > > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just look straight > > ahead. > > > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be > looking > > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight > ahead > > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like this. > > > > Cheers > > Ian, TT man > >

"Schooner" > Sims can only so far simulate visual and audio components but there ismuch > more to life than these senses. > Current sims that is. Seems like at least a year ago there was a website showing a device you place on your forehead, using a headband, that would induce motion sensations. So sitting still, a sim could trigger the proper hooks, much like force feedback and the device would cause you to feel g-force type motion, braking, acceleration, turning...Racing and Flying would seem to be the two types of programs that would benefit the most from such a mind-bender. dave henrie

On 23 Aug 2002 14:17:47 +0200, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Jussi 'Igor' Koukku <[email hidden]> writes: >> I'd go with the POV turning slightly (15-20 degrees maybe, could be >> user adjustable) towards the direction of the car's movement, ie. not >> tied to the steering wheel obviously... > >like Ruud said, it's a bad idea when you're sliding.

I think he said it's a bad idea when you spin... when sliding, your POV would be *slightly* turned to the direction of the movement, maybe something like 20 degrees if the angle between the car body and direction of movement is 40 degrees. However, when the POV turning angle is limited, I really don't see why this would cause any problems while spinning either :/ When the spin starts the POV turns towards the movement, say max 20 degrees, and when the car continues to spin, the POV stays at 20 degrees until the car has spinned 180 degrees (or rather until 140 degrees and then the POV gradually turns straight ahead). If the car keeps spinning, then the POV is turned to the other direction until it's once again facing the direction of the movement. Hope this makes some sense ;) I have no idea how hard it would be to implement something like this eg. in Racer, but IMO it sure would be cool =) - Igor -

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:35:33 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Schooner" >> Sims can only so far simulate visual and audio components but there is >much >> more to life than these senses. >> > Current sims that is. Seems like at least a year ago there was a >website showing a device you place on your forehead, using a headband, that >would induce motion sensations. So sitting still, a sim could trigger the >proper hooks, much like force feedback and the device would cause you to >feel g-force type motion, braking, acceleration, turning...Racing and >Flying would seem to be the two types of programs that would benefit the >most from such a mind-bender.

Surely not running under Windows! That'd be dangerous for your health once something passes out. ;-) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:34:00 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote: ...

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>Thus my suggestion for settable rotational >limits and damping them down to zero as speeds rise. That's an important >point. Most of the guys on the HG forum have discovered that the larger >angles are indeed NOT good for general use, as I did in about 2 seconds. As >said, mine's about 5 degrees at the moment, which is a compromise since it's >not speed-sensitive in F1-2002. Ideally it would be less at high speed and >a more at very low speeds.

You said this was locked purely to the wheel rotation, right? Hm, that seems like a nice 15-minute break I could in Racer. (speedsensitive then; with min_pov_angle and min_speed and max_pov_angle+max_speed to interpolate between. Combined with G-forces that shock the head (but that isn't in yet, although I guess I could take the pure G-forces and use that as an offset directly, hm, another 15 minutes). Interesting. *prints out own post*. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Yes, it's tied to wheel angle in F1-2002. Not intended to use that way by the game's designers I'm sure, but someone found it was possible by editing the PLR file to map multiple functions to inputs, and that by mapping the game's normal look left/right function to the X-axis left/right you got a smoothly-rotating POV. Your max glance angle is also editable, so you can tweak that, too. Max wheel lock = max glance angle, so if you set max glance angle to say, five degrees (.0877 radians), 20% of your wheel's rotation gives you a POV rotation of one degree. That keeps the POV fairly stable at speed as is, since your inputs are smaller at speed. As for the speed sensitivity, it should work pretty much like Papy's low-speed steering lock boost, only coming in below 30mph or some such number. So I think you'd need: max high speed rotation max low speed rotation speed at which to transition between the two a nice smooth curve for switching, although linear might do if the transition speed is low enough I suppose you might be able to do a smoothing routine on wheel position to damp the effects of rapid corrections; not sure what a proper interval would be. Probably best to leave all the above in tweakable txt settings. Cheers, SB "Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:34:00 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > ... > >Thus my suggestion for settable rotational > >limits and damping them down to zero as speeds rise. That's an important > >point. Most of the guys on the HG forum have discovered that the larger > >angles are indeed NOT good for general use, as I did in about 2 seconds.

As > >said, mine's about 5 degrees at the moment, which is a compromise sinceit's > >not speed-sensitive in F1-2002. Ideally it would be less at high speedand

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> >a more at very low speeds. > > You said this was locked purely to the wheel rotation, right? Hm, that > seems like a nice 15-minute break I could in Racer. (speedsensitive > then; with min_pov_angle and min_speed and max_pov_angle+max_speed to > interpolate between. > > Combined with G-forces that shock the head (but that isn't in yet, > although I guess I could take the pure G-forces and use that as an > offset directly, hm, another 15 minutes). > > Interesting. *prints out own post*. > > > Ruud van Gaal > Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ > Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Remco Moedt wrote:

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> > On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:08:45 +0100, Gerry Aitken > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >ymenard wrote: > > > >> Again, what we need is some sort of mouse-control for our head > > > >http://www.dansdata.com/trackir.htm > > > >The technology is here already. > > I've one of these, works great in IL-2. I think however that in a > racing sim you'll only want to use the headtracking along the X-axis.

Agreed.

Jussi 'Igor' Koukku wrote:

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> > On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:35:47 +0100, Gerry Aitken > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >What's 'so ridiculous' about controlling the POV (virtual drivers head) > >with a head mounted tracking device? > > Umm... POV turns as you turn your head? Unless the monitor changes > it's position according to the head movement, then I'd say it's pretty > ridiculous...

You are completely wrong. I use a head tracker to change the POV in IL2 and it works brilliantly.

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Jussi 'Igor' Koukku wrote: > > > > On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:35:47 +0100, Gerry Aitken > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >What's 'so ridiculous' about controlling the POV (virtual drivers head) > > >with a head mounted tracking device? > > > > Umm... POV turns as you turn your head? Unless the monitor changes > > it's position according to the head movement, then I'd say it's pretty > > ridiculous... > > You are completely wrong. I use a head tracker to change the POV in IL2 > and it works brilliantly.

I am getting confused Gerry. Can you explain a little how this works. I am genuinely interested (not being funny). I would think if you turned your head to look up out of the plane you would end up looking over the monitor (for example). Is it just controlled by a special mouse driver....perhaps I could implement it as an experiment? Thanks! Ash http://www.siroccoracing.com

Ashley McConnell wrote:

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> > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Jussi 'Igor' Koukku wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:35:47 +0100, Gerry Aitken > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >What's 'so ridiculous' about controlling the POV (virtual drivers head) > > > >with a head mounted tracking device? > > > > > > Umm... POV turns as you turn your head? Unless the monitor changes > > > it's position according to the head movement, then I'd say it's pretty > > > ridiculous... > > > > You are completely wrong. I use a head tracker to change the POV in IL2 > > and it works brilliantly. > > I am getting confused Gerry. Can you explain a little how this works. I am > genuinely interested (not being funny). I would think if you turned your > head to look up out of the plane you would end up looking over the monitor > (for example). Is it just controlled by a special mouse driver....perhaps I > could implement it as an experiment?

Hi Ash You set the mouse sensitivity in a software control panel. All this software comes with the unit, but ultimately it uses the Microsoft mouse driver. Because you can scale how much you turn your head you don't end up looking away from the monitor to any uncomfortable degree. I turn my head between 12 o'clock and 10 o'clock to look from 12 o'clock to 5 o'clock in IL2 for example. The human brain can easily be fooled by visual input, and even this small movement feels very convincing and natural, you feel like you are turning your head much more than you really are. I've tried this technology on real world pilots and they both said it added to the immersion by a factor of 10. I wouldn't use any other method to pan the view in flight sims, if a flight sim doesn't use mouse look then I don't buy it. Racing sims need to allow panning left and right to be controlled by the mouse, that's all. How hard do you think that would be? Do you think you could work it into your sim? Cheers Gerry

Steve... You seem to have the most sensible approach to this issue......so I'll respond about the whole of it......in reply to you. Real Racing: The driver operates the race car according to two sets of input, 1) Visual data coming to the eyes, and 2) G-force data primarily at the small of the back at contact with the seat. These are the two "data input" sources the brain accepts and uses to command driver input to race/drive the car. The visual data dominates the brain's decision making process (several hundred times per second), while the brain merely "checks in" with the G-force data from time to time (only two to three times per second), to merely confirm the visual data's validity. [This is why our "screen only" simulators even work at all to produce driver immersion.] Since we don't get any G-force data (currently) in our sims, the brain has to be "educated" when we sim race not to check in for this data input. That can take a little "learning" but its done fairly quickly. This is the process that is the reason it is often harder for real-world drivers to do than non-real world drivers.....and the reason sim racing is more difficult for real world race drivers to pick up on (at first). Since we don't get G-force data in our sims....let's drop that part of the equation for the remainder of this discussion, and focus only on the visual data. Is that fair? The visual data we receive when racing is primarily coming from the "driver point of reference" focus point. I'll call this the "POR".......nickname. Some scientist say this POR is not actually a "point"...but a focus reference area.....a "patch" of the track, if you want to call it that. For purposes of discussion only, let's just say this is a "point." That isn't germane to the issue, in my opinion. This POR is not a fixed distance from the nose of the race car.....but it does have a fairly "fixed" ratio of "distance vs. speed".....i.e., as the race speed increases, the distance the POR is from the nose of the car increases, and visa versa. Next, the brain fixes the race car as static positioned.....and it then moves the world about the nose of the race car......maintaining its focus on the POR (this what the brain does....whether the world is doing this or not, that's the translation made by the brain of all the movement in front of the car). Again, the fact that our brains do this is another reason why our simulators can have decent driver immersion....since the view on the monitor moves much like the brain's interpretation of movement in the real world. And finally, the "race track" (defined by the visual area representing the left edge to the right edge of the track....widening as it is further from the nose, narrowing as it approaches the nose).....ALWAYS moves from the distance.....directly to the nose of the car. The POR is ALWAYS somewhere inside this track POV. Under only rare circumstances (which I will describe later), the POR is never at a position that would require the driver to actually turn his/her head to see it. That....is the key issue of why this POV movement you guys are talking about is silly. You do not move your head in the real world to maintain contact with the POR.....so why would "simulating that" on our computers make them more realistic? That's my point. However, moving the POV as you guys describe.....would interfere with the brain's ability to interpret this movement as being from the car's movement on the track. And, since the brain can not "double check" itself by visiting the driver's G-force center a couple times a second.....it wouldn't take long for the brain to start becoming confused by this "extra-curricular" movement of the screen. If you confuse the brain in this way, you decrease driver immersion.....not increase it. As I said....there are a small number of unique situations where the driver can not keep the POR within his/her POV (usually something between 75 and 95 degrees, depending on the type of car you are in, i.e., closed wheel GT/sedan type race car.....or an open wheel race car, and the helmet's natural restriction of peripheral vision...and so forth. Here's the three most likely: 1. When a turn (or even a straight part of the track with a brisk rise in elevation) is at the top of a steep rise in the track......as the driver approaches, his POR (based on his current speed) will want to be at point that is "over the top" of the rise. The driver, briefly....can not see his POR. Example turn like this on a real-world track: Turn 3a at Sears Point Raceway. 2. When a turn is at the bottom of a steep slope......a similar thing happens as in #1....the driver briefly can not see his POR (its blocked by the roof of the car....and can even be blocked by the top/side of the helmet....in an open wheel car - but open racers usually have less of an issue with this type of POR block....than in #1. Example of a turn like this on a real-world track: Coming down into the last turn (after going under the foot bridge) at Road Atlanta. 3. On temporary street circuits, the POR is blocked often during a lap, because the speed of the car places it around the corner of a turn that has tall armco in the inside radius and this blocks the POR from the driver temporarily. This is why drivers often describe racing on temporary street circuits as like "racing in a tunnel".....this happens often on street circuits...maybe 30% of the lap has the driver's POR blocked. Some drivers adapt well to this, others do not. What does the brain do (temporarily) when it can't have access to the driver's POR? Well, the answer is varied and depends on the driver. I temporarily move my POR up track...towards my car.....until I can see it.....but its still a very uncomfortable period (even though its only a split second)....for me. Other driver's I know just "suspend" driver input...temporarily...until the POR is back in view at the normal distance. I'm not going to say much more about this "adaptation" because its really complicated. But, not all drivers "adapt" to this situation in the same way. That's a whole new study (perhaps why some drivers are really good on street circuits and others are terrible on them). Sim Racing: So, the only places where your guy's "POV mover" (to keep the POR on screen) would actually help....is in one of the three situations above. Are you suggesting that we should implement being able to see over hills, and around corners? That is why I think the premise of all this is totally ridiculous! Being able to quickly turn your head left or right....in a racing situation....which is very rarely needed.......is already implemented with the "look left, look right" buttons. Automated movement of the driver's POV would be unrealistic to the real-world and simply confuse the brain immensely. Now...in a flying sim, this whole concept would be very realistic.....and would add to pilot immersion. Because, in an airplane, the pilot moves/turns his/her head often to sweep the skies at or near 180 degree POV's. But not in a racing sim. TP "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cRq99.34935$[email hidden]...

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> Tom, > > Assuming you're addressing the turning POV in general and not the mouse > thingy: > > In tight hairpins (like the last corner at SP), it better enables you to > visualize your apex and exit line, without compromising your car control. > You surely do not keep your gaze pinned at hood center in real life in

slow > 180 degree turns. While you can, of course, simply look at a different > point on the screen in a sim, FOV limitations of the monitors the majority > of us play on limit the view ahead to an unrealistic one. Allowing POV to > follow wheel rotation in such situations changes this for the better.I've

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> messed with it a good bit in F1-2002 and speak from recent experience. > > But this relates only to low speeds, and I agree that large POV changes at > speed are wildly disorienting. Thus my suggestion for settable rotational > limits and damping them down to zero as speeds rise. That's an important > point. Most of the guys on the HG forum have discovered that the larger > angles are indeed NOT good for general use, as I did in about 2 seconds.

As > said, mine's about 5 degrees at the moment, which is a compromise sinceit's > not speed-sensitive in F1-2002. Ideally it would be less at high speedand

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> a more at very low speeds. > > Bottom line is that I think it can be a positive addition if done properly > and with full user-adjustability. That has yet to be done. > > Cheers, > > SB > > PS - Do you have any experience with bike sims? They pretty much all use

a > moving POV that's not locked to the chassis in an attempt to mimic therider

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> crawling around on the bike. It's a bit different at first, but after a > short adjustment, I always choose that view over one locked to the bike. > Much more realistic, imho. > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:lpk99.3626$[email hidden]... > > Well, I was going to stay completely out of this string because when I > first > > read it, I thought the "premise" was so ridiculous.....that it wouldn't > make > > it past three replies before completely dying off. When I opened the > string > > again tonight (I first saw it this morning).....I was totally taken back > by > > the number of replies. > > > > I still think the premise is completely silly......but maybe I'm missing > > something? So, I want to ask a question (or two): > > > > What are you guys thinking you will accomplish with this except

confusing

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> > your brain? You can't do this in real life (in a race car or anywhere > > else).....so why is it necessary to do it in a sim racing environment to > > improve "driver immersion?" > > > > If I get a sensible answer to this.....I'll have more to say. > > > > TP > > > > > > > > > > > > "Ian George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Hi All > > > > > > Don't you think that the driving experience in sims would be

heightened > if > > > one's view behind the wheel was not dead forward but rather in the > > direction > > > of the cars movement. If you think about how your head moves when you > > > drive, you follow the direction the car is going, not just lookstraight

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> > > ahead. > > > > > > For instance, if you let the back hang out in a corner, you would be > > looking > > > slightly sideways, following the corner, rather than staring straight > > ahead > > > at the kerb. I wonder if any sims ever implemented something like

this.

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> > > > > > Cheers > > > Ian, TT man > > > > > >

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:19:38 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote: ... >max high speed rotation >max low speed rotation >speed at which to transition between the two >a nice smooth curve for switching, although linear might do if the >transition speed is low enough I think linear would do ok here. As lowspeed~10km/h and highspeed~300km/h. So the max POV angle changes linearly as well, so decays from say 15 degrees at 10km/h to 3 degrees at 300km/h gradually. Piece of cake formulawise. >I suppose you might be able to do a smoothing routine on wheel position to >damp the effects of rapid corrections; not sure what a proper interval would >be. Probably best to leave all the above in tweakable txt settings. Yep, I have on my wishlist a generic SMD (spring-mass-damper) class which acts like a filter. Would be useful for a lot of things (like head movement in response to G-forces for example). Thanks, I may have a test tomorrow or something. Ruud Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <post snipped> Thanks for the considered reply, Tom. I agree that the POR, as you call it, is generally within a sim's POV; certainly it is at any significant speed. I do however, find that some POV rotation at low speeds not only feels quite natural in use, but is helpful in sighting my exit line as I'm apexing in a tight corner. Say you're in a tight left-hand 180 at 30 mph; are you not looking past the A pillar in real life? FWIW, I've run some laps in F1-2002 switching back and forth between a cockpit view with moving POV and a custom camera view that matches the cockpit view but without rotation, and my laptimes didn't suffer or benefit from either. But the moving one felt better somehow, I suspect because I had tweaked the rotation to closely match my POR. If it didn't, it would be awful, as was the case with CPR. Speed sensitivity would help a lot here, due to POR being a function of time and thus driven by speed. Hey, as long as you can tweak it or turn it off... ;-) SB

Steve... I think those rare circumstances (like you describe in the 180 degree/ 30 mph turn) your brain would default to that "suspend mode" as it does in the same situations I described (#1, #2, #3) above.....maybe in an open wheel car, you'd turn your head to pick up the POR. But, boy....that would be the rare case. The rest of the time the moving POV would totally screw you up. And as you stated, how much would that rarely used ability...help you? Not much, if at all. Do you really need to see the apex...or even the exit....on a 30mph - 180 degree turn? Nah! And, the POR would only still be out of view...for a brief moment....even at that low speed. Now the speed sensitive movement of the POV......might be something that could be helpful maybe during traversing accidents scenes.....or in pace for a start or restart. But, even in those situations.....I kind of doubt it. Remember, as your speed reduces.....the POR moves closer to the nose of the car....and thus, tends to always remain fairly in front of or within the on-screen POV (of 75 to 90 degrees). You don't keep your POR out there a 100 yards down track, when you are only going 30 mph! You know? TP "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:L7v99.147068$[email hidden]...

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> "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > <post snipped> > > Thanks for the considered reply, Tom. > > I agree that the POR, as you call it, is generally within a sim's POV; > certainly it is at any significant speed. I do however, find that some

POV > rotation at low speeds not only feels quite natural in use, but is helpful > in sighting my exit line as I'm apexing in a tight corner. Say you're ina > tight left-hand 180 at 30 mph; are you not looking past the A pillar inreal > life? > > FWIW, I've run some laps in F1-2002 switching back and forth between a > cockpit view with moving POV and a custom camera view that matches the > cockpit view but without rotation, and my laptimes didn't suffer orbenefit > from either. But the moving one felt better somehow, I suspect because I > had tweaked the rotation to closely match my POR. If it didn't, it wouldbe

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> awful, as was the case with CPR. Speed sensitivity would help a lot here, > due to POR being a function of time and thus driven by speed. > > Hey, as long as you can tweak it or turn it off... ;-) > > SB > >

You thesis maintains that a driver rarely looks from side to side much... But I seem to remember images...photos...of open cockpit drivers who are craning thier head almost 90 degrees to view the upcomming corner. Could just be a figment of my imagination tho. Granted modern Open wheel cars leave little room for head movement, Stock cars too for that matter....but I wonder about other classes. Do the Touring cars lock in the drivers helmet? Sports cars? Prototypes? Just how much lateral head movement do most formulas allow these days? dave henrie

You can clearly see the drivers looking into the turns in any modern F1 race. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:voD99.11258$[email hidden]... > You thesis maintains that a driver rarely looks from side to sidemuch... > But I seem to remember images...photos...of open cockpit drivers whoare > craning thier head almost 90 degrees to view the upcomming corner.Could > just be a figment of my imagination tho. > Granted modern Open wheel cars leave little room for headmovement, > Stock cars too for that matter....but I wonder about other classes.Do the > Touring cars lock in the drivers helmet? Sports cars? Prototypes?Just > how much lateral head movement do most formulas allow these days? > > dave henrie > >

Dave... I think the issue of driver's head movement is not limited by the class of car, or race car type. This is about the dynamics of head movement in general, when racing. You don't move your head to capture the POR because its nearly always within your straight ahead POV. The movement of the driver's head you detect on film or in pictures maybe more related to some drivers who do this to check mirrors (at extreme angles).....or something like that. I'm not an open wheel racer, but I have put a lot of laps in many open wheel cars. While my head movement freedom is greater in an open wheel car....I don't really use it in the manner described that would make having a moving POV in a sim - more realistic. Its just doesn't happen that way in any type of race car. I'm talking about the normal and natural head movement.....which is straight ahead (virtually) 99% of the time. Maybe your driver was sneezing....or checking out a babe.....lol... Heck, I don't know.....but its not a regular and normal thing to move your head's POV to capture your racing Point of Reference (besides, you'd do that with eye movement...not your head). TP "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:voD99.11258$[email hidden]... > You thesis maintains that a driver rarely looks from side to sidemuch... > But I seem to remember images...photos...of open cockpit drivers who are > craning thier head almost 90 degrees to view the upcomming corner. Could > just be a figment of my imagination tho. > Granted modern Open wheel cars leave little room for head movement, > Stock cars too for that matter....but I wonder about other classes. Dothe > Touring cars lock in the drivers helmet? Sports cars? Prototypes?Just > how much lateral head movement do most formulas allow these days? > > dave henrie > >

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > You thesis maintains that a driver rarely looks from side to side much... > But I seem to remember images...photos...of open cockpit drivers who are > craning thier head almost 90 degrees to view the upcomming corner. Could > just be a figment of my imagination tho. > Granted modern Open wheel cars leave little room for head movement, > Stock cars too for that matter....but I wonder about other classes. Do the > Touring cars lock in the drivers helmet? Sports cars? Prototypes? Just > how much lateral head movement do most formulas allow these days? > > dave henrie

Dave -- The thing we need to remember whenever we read one of Tom's sermons is this is the bloke who was sick after playing Nascar and attributed his sickness to the immersion factor of his simulator! If you can be bothered to wade through all the verbiage it can generally be summarized in a couple of lines which are usually based on the physics of fluffy bunny land. The West's told me he approached them with a business proposition which they politely turned down, wonder why? ;) Gerry

Just a fine point (that probably doesn't need making... ;-)) What we're talking about here is not so much head movement, which sims deal with by allowing g-force induced movement relative to the cockpit, but eye movement - focal point. Tom's right in that a moving POV is not much, if any, use at speed; but I, on the other hand am indubitably correct in that it's useful at low speeds. Definitely a low speed thingy. All clear now? ;-) SB PS - If you're curious and have F1-2002, play with it a bit and see for yourself - just keep the glance angle very low, or bring a barf bag. But to be more current, just watch the POV follow steering input in LFS... ;-) "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:t%D99.161103$me6.20965@sccrnsc01...

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> Dave... > > I think the issue of driver's head movement is not limited by the class of > car, or race car type. This is about the dynamics of head movement in > general, when racing. You don't move your head to capture the POR because > its nearly always within your straight ahead POV. The movement of the > driver's head you detect on film or in pictures maybe more related to some > drivers who do this to check mirrors (at extreme angles).....or something > like that. I'm not an open wheel racer, but I have put a lot of laps in > many open wheel cars. While my head movement freedom is greater in an

open > wheel car....I don't really use it in the manner described that would make > having a moving POV in a sim - more realistic. Its just doesn't happenthat > way in any type of race car. I'm talking about the normal and naturalhead > movement.....which is straight ahead (virtually) 99% of the time. > > Maybe your driver was sneezing....or checking out a babe.....lol... Heck,I

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> don't know.....but its not a regular and normal thing to move your head's > POV to capture your racing Point of Reference (besides, you'd do that with > eye movement...not your head). > > TP > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:voD99.11258$[email hidden]... > > You thesis maintains that a driver rarely looks from side to side > much... > > But I seem to remember images...photos...of open cockpit drivers who

are > > craning thier head almost 90 degrees to view the upcomming corner.Could

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> > just be a figment of my imagination tho. > > Granted modern Open wheel cars leave little room for head movement, > > Stock cars too for that matter....but I wonder about other classes. Do > the > > Touring cars lock in the drivers helmet? Sports cars? Prototypes? > Just > > how much lateral head movement do most formulas allow these days? > > > > dave henrie > > > > > >

Steve Blankenship wrote:

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> > Just a fine point (that probably doesn't need making... ;-)) > > What we're talking about here is not so much head movement, which sims deal > with by allowing g-force induced movement relative to the cockpit, but eye > movement - focal point. Tom's right in that a moving POV is not much, if > any, use at speed; but I, on the other hand am indubitably correct in that > it's useful at low speeds. Definitely a low speed thingy. > > All clear now? ;-) > > SB > > PS - If you're curious and have F1-2002, play with it a bit and see for > yourself - just keep the glance angle very low, or bring a barf bag. But to > be more current, just watch the POV follow steering input in LFS... ;-)

Steve, what you say makes perfect sense, unlike what Tom says. ;) I've tried this in F12002 and straightaway I was aware that I didn't even notice the shift in POV. That's because it's perfectly natural and realistic. Gerry

On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:23:19 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote: >PS - If you're curious and have F1-2002, play with it a bit and see for >yourself - just keep the glance angle very low, or bring a barf bag. But to >be more current, just watch the POV follow steering input in LFS... ;-) And in Racer beta 6 it will be included as well, speed-sensitive. I just put it in yesterday and it seemed ok (but that was with a mouse). Will have to try with steering wheels and various angles, but well, the options are there (including disabling it), so people can experiment, which is half the fun ofcourse. ;-) Just have to zip out some other bugs that are keeping beta 6 from being released (of which not all are trivial by far). Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Gaal wrote:

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> > On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:23:19 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >PS - If you're curious and have F1-2002, play with it a bit and see for > >yourself - just keep the glance angle very low, or bring a barf bag. But to > >be more current, just watch the POV follow steering input in LFS... ;-) > > And in Racer beta 6 it will be included as well, speed-sensitive. I > just put it in yesterday and it seemed ok (but that was with a mouse). > Will have to try with steering wheels and various angles, but well, > the options are there (including disabling it), so people can > experiment, which is half the fun ofcourse. ;-) > > Just have to zip out some other bugs that are keeping beta 6 from > being released (of which not all are trivial by far). >

Ruud! So I'll be able to use my head tracker in mouse emulation mode? Gerry

Cool! Look forward to trying it out; always fun to have more knobs to twiddle with.. SB "Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:23:19 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >PS - If you're curious and have F1-2002, play with it a bit and see for > >yourself - just keep the glance angle very low, or bring a barf bag. Butto

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> >be more current, just watch the POV follow steering input in LFS... ;-) > > And in Racer beta 6 it will be included as well, speed-sensitive. I > just put it in yesterday and it seemed ok (but that was with a mouse). > Will have to try with steering wheels and various angles, but well, > the options are there (including disabling it), so people can > experiment, which is half the fun ofcourse. ;-) > > Just have to zip out some other bugs that are keeping beta 6 from > being released (of which not all are trivial by far). > > > Ruud van Gaal > Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ > Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:33:24 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ruud van Gaal wrote: >> >> On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:23:19 GMT, "Steve Blankenship" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >PS - If you're curious and have F1-2002, play with it a bit and see for >> >yourself - just keep the glance angle very low, or bring a barf bag. But to >> >be more current, just watch the POV follow steering input in LFS... ;-) >> >> And in Racer beta 6 it will be included as well, speed-sensitive. I >> just put it in yesterday and it seemed ok (but that was with a mouse). >> Will have to try with steering wheels and various angles, but well, >> the options are there (including disabling it), so people can >> experiment, which is half the fun ofcourse. ;-) >> >> Just have to zip out some other bugs that are keeping beta 6 from >> being released (of which not all are trivial by far). >> >Ruud! > >So I'll be able to use my head tracker in mouse emulation mode?

Indeed; didn't follow things too carefully, but mouse emulation mode sounds like what you need. However, this means your head tracker will define steering as well (since the steering wheel determines POV_delta_angle). I think what you'd need is a separate control, just like throttle/pedal etc. that determine the 'povAngle' control, independently from steering. Does that sound right? That would be doable, though a little niche for most people. ;-) But niche features is something that's a nice thing about Racer; I can do them if I like. :) Little trinkets that add depth and a special feel. If undefined, the povAngle control should follow the steering control then I guess. Perhaps something generic like that could be done, so normally, povAngle WOULD follow steering directly (for all the other users), and you could set 'independent' mode or something. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud, you're a star, mate. :) Yes I'd need the mouse to have exclusive control over POV through the x axis only. Preferably with an adjustable dead zone at the centre. Is that doable? You're right, this is a little niche ATM, but so was my CH flight yoke back in 92. The guy in the shop couldn't understand why I wanted to play GP1 with it! Niche today, mass market tomorrow. Well mass racing sim market anyway. This hasn't been don in any racing sim, so you'll be breaking new ground. :) Thanks Gerry

"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> writes: > Yes, it's tied to wheel angle in F1-2002. Not intended to use that way by > the game's designers I'm sure, but someone found it was possible by editing > the PLR file to map multiple functions to inputs, and that by mapping the > game's normal look left/right function to the X-axis left/right you got a > smoothly-rotating POV. whatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhat? does this mean I can get look left/right on a separate axis? if that's the case, I'm tearing apart an old joystick and glue one of the pots to my wheel RIGHT NOW. Gunnar, hyperventilating. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 gitaren er en sjingke

Uhhh, yes. ;-) As long as the game will recognize the input device, you can map the function to it. Deep breaths now, slow and easy. That should do it... SB "Gunnar Horrigmo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Yes, it's tied to wheel angle in F1-2002. Not intended to use that wayby > > the game's designers I'm sure, but someone found it was possible byediting > > the PLR file to map multiple functions to inputs, and that by mappingthe > > game's normal look left/right function to the X-axis left/right you gota

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> > smoothly-rotating POV. > > whatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhat? does this mean I can get look left/right on > a separate axis? if that's the case, I'm tearing apart an old > joystick and glue one of the pots to my wheel RIGHT NOW. > > Gunnar, hyperventilating. > -- > Gunnar > #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 > gitaren er en sjingke

On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:08:50 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ruud, you're a star, mate. :) > >Yes I'd need the mouse to have exclusive control over POV through the x >axis only. Preferably with an adjustable dead zone at the centre. Is >that doable? > >You're right, this is a little niche ATM, but so was my CH flight yoke >back in 92. The guy in the shop couldn't understand why I wanted to play >GP1 with it! > >Niche today, mass market tomorrow. Well mass racing sim market anyway. > >This hasn't been don in any racing sim, so you'll be breaking new >ground. :)

Hehe, well, consider it in the new version then. :) Should be easy enough to do, and I need the additional 'horn' control anyway. ;-) By default the pov_angle control then will link to the steering control directly, but can be made independent. Or perhaps the other way round, hooking any control to any control (but I don't know if that's really useful in general). Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/