New N2k2 cheat on WON?

I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just before Scierie at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to be in the 2:05 range. In these laps he also exits from Gr�sil about 8mph slower than I would and yet manages to reach 196mph (and still brake in time for Scierie), whereas I, although I should reach a higher speed than him (spoiler 60 here) only get to about 194 if I still want to brake in time for Scierie. Another guy in the replay does the same rpm but only reaches something in the 170mph range in terms of speed. Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just warping? Achim

"Joachim Trensz" Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > warping? > > Achim > Replays are focus'd on your car and don't do a very good job with the others. Many times 3 people have complained about a wreck cuz their own replays show the other guy caused it...all three... If you had the server replay that might help... But it certainly appears suspicious. dave henrie

I know lots of people how have opened the .exe in a nex editor, theyre also planning to make a GT40 :) Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:akaain$1hd3o5$[email hidden]... > I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just beforeScierie

Quoted text (20 lines)

> at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, > whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to be in > the 2:05 range. > > In these laps he also exits from Gr�sil about 8mph slower than I would and > yet manages to reach 196mph (and still brake in time for Scierie), whereas > I, although I should reach a higher speed than him (spoiler 60 here) only > get to about 194 if I still want to brake in time for Scierie. > > Another guy in the replay does the same rpm but only reaches something in > the 170mph range in terms of speed. > > Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > warping? > > Achim > > > >

In article <akaain$1hd3o5$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes: >I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just before Scierie >at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, >whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to be in >the 2:05 range. Wait - you guys can run a 2:05 at Rouen in a NASCAR?!? Damn, I can barely do that with a lighter(and presumably more manuverable) Lotus... Now I'm curious what WOULD my time be in N2k2. I'll guess about 2:30-2:40. Maybe I'll try to find that converted after all... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote > Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > warping? NR2002 is completely messed up and won't ever be fixed. I've known numbers of people who stopped racing because Papyrus doesn't want to fix the holes in the sim. Anybody can cheat, it's very easy, and intelligent people won't be ever caught as they know to only increase their potential power by a small margin, not like that dumb person that you saw on the track. What a shame. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote > Wait - you guys can run a 2:05 at Rouen in a NASCAR?!? Damn, I can barelydo > that with a lighter(and presumably more manuverable) Lotus... > Now I'm curious what WOULD my time be in N2k2. I'll guess about2:30-2:40. Not only is it easier to be consistent driving a stock-car on road course compared to GPL, the laptimes are pretty close to those found in GPL. Just look at the free convertor and the small difference found in laptimes. Approx 105% -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

thanks for the comments guys. I'd normally also say 'warp', but since a couple of things came together, I was wondering a bit. Achim "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:akaain$1hd3o5$[email hidden]... > I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just beforeScierie

Quoted text (20 lines)

> at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, > whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to be in > the 2:05 range. > > In these laps he also exits from Gr�sil about 8mph slower than I would and > yet manages to reach 196mph (and still brake in time for Scierie), whereas > I, although I should reach a higher speed than him (spoiler 60 here) only > get to about 194 if I still want to brake in time for Scierie. > > Another guy in the replay does the same rpm but only reaches something in > the 170mph range in terms of speed. > > Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > warping? > > Achim > > > >

Joachim Trensz wrote:

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just before Scierie > at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, > whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to be in > the 2:05 range. > > In these laps he also exits from Gr�sil about 8mph slower than I would and > yet manages to reach 196mph (and still brake in time for Scierie), whereas > I, although I should reach a higher speed than him (spoiler 60 here) only > get to about 194 if I still want to brake in time for Scierie. > > Another guy in the replay does the same rpm but only reaches something in > the 170mph range in terms of speed. > > Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > warping?

It's not new per se, I've said this before Achim, I'll lap you at WG anytime :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Joachim Trensz wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > ... > > ...I'll lap you at WG anytime :-) > > Nice to see someone your age can still have wild dreams ;-)

I didn't say I was going to play fair did I :-), with that cheat you saw online, assuming these guys do it the way I think they're doing it, there's really no limit as to how fast you can go Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > ...I'll lap you at WG anytime :-) Nice to see someone your age can still have wild dreams ;-) Achim

Ahhh - got me :-) Achim "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > I didn't say I was going to play fair did I :-), with that cheat you saw > online, assuming these guys do it the way I think they're doing it, > there's really no limit as to how fast you can go

I figured as much the night I was in an "arcade" pickup race at WG and 4 or 5 guys were doing 1:12's. I won't mention their names, because they are too well known, but they were bragging about having "hybrid" race cars. So, how do these "cheats" get around the checksum "cheat checker" in the N2K2 servers? TP "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Joachim Trensz wrote: > > > > I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just beforeScierie > > at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, > > whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to bein > > the 2:05 range. > > > > In these laps he also exits from Gr�sil about 8mph slower than I wouldand > > yet manages to reach 196mph (and still brake in time for Scierie),whereas > > I, although I should reach a higher speed than him (spoiler 60 here)only > > get to about 194 if I still want to brake in time for Scierie. > > > > Another guy in the replay does the same rpm but only reaches somethingin

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > the 170mph range in terms of speed. > > > > Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > > warping? > > It's not new per se, I've said this before Achim, I'll lap you at WG > anytime :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Tom, Could also be attributed to the fact Arcade Mode allows you to run on the track as if your on the Daytona Arcade game at your local video arcade. Meaning, its almost impossible to wreck, ie faster lap times. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pBBa9.190518$983.325252@rwcrnsc53... I figured as much the night I was in an "arcade" pickup race at WG and 4 or 5 guys were doing 1:12's. I won't mention their names, because they are too well known, but they were bragging about having "hybrid" race cars. So, how do these "cheats" get around the checksum "cheat checker" in the N2K2 servers? TP "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Joachim Trensz wrote: > > > > I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just before Scierie > > at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, > > whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to be in > > the 2:05 range. > > > > In these laps he also exits from Grésil about 8mph slower than I would and > > yet manages to reach 196mph (and still brake in time for Scierie), whereas > > I, although I should reach a higher speed than him (spoiler 60 here) only > > get to about 194 if I still want to brake in time for Scierie. > > > > Another guy in the replay does the same rpm but only reaches something in > > the 170mph range in terms of speed. > > > > Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > > warping? > > It's not new per se, I've said this before Achim, I'll lap you at WG > anytime :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > I figured as much the night I was in an "arcade" pickup race at WG and 4or > 5 guys were doing 1:12's. I won't mention their names, because they aretoo > well known, but they were bragging about having "hybrid" race cars. Uuuuuuuh, Tom... you wrote your own answer... "ARCADE" as in "Arcade mode". You know there is such mode since Nascar Racing 3 do you? A completely different sim, with a completely different permissible physics model in its oneself. ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I wish somebody would let the cat out of the bag. Sadly, it has to get worse before it can ever get better. Raise the visibility and force Papy to deal with it. They won't do shit until it starts affecting the bottom line. Gerald "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<pBBa9.190518$983.325252@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted text (49 lines)

> I figured as much the night I was in an "arcade" pickup race at WG and 4 or > 5 guys were doing 1:12's. I won't mention their names, because they are too > well known, but they were bragging about having "hybrid" race cars. > > So, how do these "cheats" get around the checksum "cheat checker" in the > N2K2 servers? > > TP > > > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Joachim Trensz wrote: > > > > > > I have a client replay of a guy doing more than 10000rpm just before > Scierie > > > at Rouen on two different laps. On these laps he did a 1:57 and a 1:58, > > > whereas before with everything normal rpm-wise his laptimes used to be > in > > > the 2:05 range. > > > > > > In these laps he also exits from Gr�sil about 8mph slower than I would > and > > > yet manages to reach 196mph (and still brake in time for Scierie), > whereas > > > I, although I should reach a higher speed than him (spoiler 60 here) > only > > > get to about 194 if I still want to brake in time for Scierie. > > > > > > Another guy in the replay does the same rpm but only reaches something > in > > > the 170mph range in terms of speed. > > > > > > Has anyone seen or heard similar reports - is it a new cheat or just > > > warping? > > > > It's not new per se, I've said this before Achim, I'll lap you at WG > > anytime :-) > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > --Groucho Marx--

Tom Pabst wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > I figured as much the night I was in an "arcade" pickup race at WG and 4 or > 5 guys were doing 1:12's. I won't mention their names, because they are too > well known, but they were bragging about having "hybrid" race cars. > > So, how do these "cheats" get around the checksum "cheat checker" in the > N2K2 servers?

There is a cheat checker ? Admittedly I haven't been able to race on Sierra yet, but I've raced online with it connecting through IP, and if you know how figure out the IP to the race server you're connecting to through Sierra, what's to stop me from from going on Sierra "clean", pick a server, connect to it, find the IP, disco and reconnect through IP in "cheat mode" People with more skills than mine have probably figured out a way past the Sierra checker too Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Gerald Moore wrote: > > I wish somebody would let the cat out of the bag. Sadly, it has to > get worse before it can ever get better. Raise the visibility and > force Papy to deal with it. They won't do shit until it starts > affecting the bottom line. By the looks of things, online gaming isn't going to make a difference on the "bottom line" one way or the other, I can't remember how many % of the games sold have had their CD-keys registered with Sierra, but it wasn't a huge number, 2-3 % Papy could care less, financial wise, they'd make more money off of their games by dropping the online bit altogether, I assume the only reason it's still in there is because some of the guys there are enthusiasts at heart As for letting the cat out of the bag, I don't think so, I'll be happy to pass on the info I have to Papy or private individuals trying to work out a fix or at least a way of detecting cheaters, providing the people who provided me with the info in the first place agree of course as the info isn't mine to give away, but seeing how easy it is to cheat once you know how to do it, it would ruin online gaming, and no, the people I got this info from is not using it to cheat in online racing, it was accidental that it was discovered it could be used as a cheat So what happens if we release the info and Papy decides not to do anything, where do we stand then ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

>"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote > By the looks of things, online gaming isn't going to make a difference > on the "bottom line" one way or the other, I can't remember how many % > of the games sold have had their CD-keys registered with Sierra, but it > wasn't a huge number, 2-3 % That number is severely too low. I speculate around 15%, perhaps even more. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > I figured as much the night I was in an "arcade" pickup race at WG and 4or > > 5 guys were doing 1:12's. I won't mention their names, because they aretoo

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > well known, but they were bragging about having "hybrid" race cars. > > > > So, how do these "cheats" get around the checksum "cheat checker" in the > > N2K2 servers? > > There is a cheat checker ? > > Admittedly I haven't been able to race on Sierra yet, but I've raced > online with it connecting through IP, and if you know how figure out the > IP to the race server you're connecting to through Sierra, what's to > stop me from from going on Sierra "clean", pick a server, connect to it, > find the IP, disco and reconnect through IP in "cheat mode" > > People with more skills than mine have probably figured out a way past > the Sierra checker too > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com

Servers registered on Sierra.com can't be connected to via IP. John > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:38Sa9.3096$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote > > By the looks of things, online gaming isn't going to make a difference > > on the "bottom line" one way or the other, I can't remember how many % > > of the games sold have had their CD-keys registered with Sierra, but it > > wasn't a huge number, 2-3 % > > That number is severely too low. I speculate around 15%, perhaps even

more.

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Yeah, no offense Goy, but I'd be interested in seeing that proven. John > > >

John Pancoast wrote:

Quoted text (25 lines)

> > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:38Sa9.3096$[email hidden]... > > >"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > By the looks of things, online gaming isn't going to make a difference > > > on the "bottom line" one way or the other, I can't remember how many % > > > of the games sold have had their CD-keys registered with Sierra, but it > > > wasn't a huge number, 2-3 % > > > > That number is severely too low. I speculate around 15%, perhaps even > more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > Yeah, no offense Goy, but I'd be interested in seeing that proven.

Wish I could remember where I saw it, I could have sworn it was a post here on RAS mentioning it, and although I can't remember the numbers, I'm pretty sure it was less than 5% Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

John Pancoast wrote: > > Servers registered on Sierra.com can't be connected to via IP. Learn something new every day :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy Larsen wrote: > > Wish I could remember where I saw it, I could have sworn it was a post > here on RAS mentioning it, and although I can't remember the numbers, > I'm pretty sure it was less than 5% http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl26615300d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=udy49.5103%24Fl.358206%40nnrp1.ptd.net Ok, so it was 6% and it was Husted and we all know how reliable he usually is, but I didn't see anyone jump up and quote different numbers at the time either Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

In article <pBBa9.190518$983.325252@rwcrnsc53>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >I figured as much the night I was in an "arcade" pickup race at WG and 4 or >5 guys were doing 1:12's. I won't mention their names, because they are too >well known, but they were bragging about having "hybrid" race cars. If they were bragging about it, then they obviously don't CARE who knows it... I say you mention them... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Goy Larsen wrote: > > > > Wish I could remember where I saw it, I could have sworn it was a post > > here on RAS mentioning it, and although I can't remember the numbers, > > I'm pretty sure it was less than 5% > >

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl26615300d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=U TF-8&selm=udy49.5103%24Fl.358206%40nnrp1.ptd.net

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > Ok, so it was 6% and it was Husted and we all know how reliable he > usually is, but I didn't see anyone jump up and quote different numbers > at the time either > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Pffffffffffffft..........Husted ? Hell, he think's the N2k damage model is spot on, what does he know ?<G> John

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Gerald Moore wrote: > > > > I wish somebody would let the cat out of the bag. Sadly, it has to > > get worse before it can ever get better. Raise the visibility and > > force Papy to deal with it. They won't do shit until it starts > > affecting the bottom line. > > By the looks of things, online gaming isn't going to make a difference > on the "bottom line" one way or the other, I can't remember how many % > of the games sold have had their CD-keys registered with Sierra, but it > wasn't a huge number, 2-3 %

Even 2-3% is a huge number if you start thinking about profit margins. > Papy could care less, financial wise, they'd make more money off of > their games by dropping the online bit altogether, I assume the only > reason it's still in there is because some of the guys there are > enthusiasts at heart In terms of development time and support costs going away, that would improve the margin. I think they would lose a signifigant amount of sales, which would more than cancel out any gains. Only their accountants know for sure... so far they haven't dropped it, and I doubt the bean counters give a rats ass about enthusiast employee desires. > So what happens if we release the info and Papy decides not to do > anything, where do we stand then ? From what I can tell, almost exactly the same place we are now. Anyone who would be a cheater is probably already cheating. Some additional folks would probably do it briefly to check it out or to mess with their friends. The main difference would be more people would complain that something needs to be done, and hopefully at that point Papy would actually do something. They did "fix" wallriding. Gerald

"Gerald Moore" wrote...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > <snip> > From what I can tell, almost exactly the same place we > are now. Anyone who would be a cheater is probably > already cheating. Some additional folks would probably > do it briefly to check it out or to mess with their friends. > The main difference would be more people would > complain that something needs to be done, and hopefully > at that point Papy would actually do something. They did > "fix" wallriding.

I don't know if would like that kind of fix, i.e. one that deminishes the simulation aspect, in these cases. Jan. =---

On 28 Aug 2002 07:18:41 -0700, [email hidden] (Gerald Moore) wrote: >In terms of development time and support costs going away, that would >improve the margin. I think they would lose a signifigant amount of >sales, which would more than cancel out any gains. Only their >accountants know for sure... so far they haven't dropped it, and I >doubt the bean counters give a rats ass about enthusiast employee >desires. I'll agree with the last bit, but I do have to wonder how much the monthly cost of co-locating 13 servers (or providing the bandwidth, if they're located in-house) is compared to the overall sales of the game. If my math is right, they'd need over 10Mbit of bandwidth either way, not counting the bandwidth used by the chat server and racelist which should be minimal, and that's not cheap. 28k per racer times 40 racers times 13 (?) servers.... 15Mbit. That's certainly not cheap. Jason ----- GPLRank 24.50 N2002Rank -12.995

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> John Pancoast wrote: > > > > Servers registered on Sierra.com can't be connected to via IP. > > Learn something new every day :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy >

Yup, to do so would generate a popup to the effect "You must be logged into Sierra to connect to this server" or similar. I think they did it this way for several reasons, mainly so everyone was either rated or not. If a rated server started up and folks could join by IP (going around the ratings which take affect through the arenas only), they could ruin guys' LPI and not take a hit on their own.

Gerald Moore wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > Even 2-3% is a huge number if you start thinking about profit margins. > > In terms of development time and support costs going away, that would > improve the margin. I think they would lose a signifigant amount of > sales, which would more than cancel out any gains. Only their > accountants know for sure... so far they haven't dropped it, and I > doubt the bean counters give a rats ass about enthusiast employee > desires.

2-3 %, or 6 if are to believe Husted, isn't a whole lot when it has to pay for the whole development of the online code, as well as patching and maintaining support, how many of those who haven't registered on Sierra do you think have even DL'ed the patches ? As far as Papy having a saying towards the Sierra beancounters, I suspect that if your name is David Kaemner (sp) you can at least get *some* of your wishes though the eye of the needle, but as outsiders we can only speculate > From what I can tell, almost exactly the same place we are now. > Anyone who would be a cheater is probably already cheating. Some > additional folks would probably do it briefly to check it out or to > mess with their friends. The main difference would be more people > would complain that something needs to be done, and hopefully at that > point Papy would actually do something. They did "fix" wallriding. Hmmm, well, I have to disagree on that, some of these cheats are very easy to do.....as long as you know what to look for, I'm not going to point people in the right direction, especially since we've been told that Papy considers NR2002 to be it's final state now and that we can't expect more patches (can't remember who posted that and where), meaning this is what we've got, do we really want to inform more people how to cheat ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ji5b9.92448$[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> "Gerald Moore" wrote... > > > > <snip> > > They did > > "fix" wallriding. > > I don't know if would like that kind of fix, i.e. one that deminishes the > simulation aspect, in these cases. > > Jan. > =---

I hate the way they fixed it. But my point is that if enough folks complain, they will probably do something about it. Right now I'd say there is a large percentage that has no idea this sort of thing (whatever it is...) is going on. Gerald

Believe me! I'm know everything... I just can't remember it all at once. -- Scott B. Husted "PA-Scott" ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > 2-3 %, or 6 if are to believe Husted, isn't a whole lot when it has to > pay for the whole development of the online code, as well as patching > and maintaining support, how many of those who haven't registered on > Sierra do you think have even DL'ed the patches ? >

"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:akuaar$ca$[email hidden]... > Believe me! > > I'm know everything... I just can't remember it all at once. > That's kinda like me Scooter.... "I've forgotten more than I ever knew........." dave henrie