LFS - Knobbly tyres TRANSFORM rallyX handling

Hi, I finally experienced Sim Heaven last night. My Nirvana has always been an accurate rally Sim - one in which I could balance a RWD car sideways making throttle as well as steering corrections through bends. Rally Trophy was the most realistic Sim until now, but never had that degree of control - it was more a case of set the car up for the corner and hope for the best. I used to Rally and Autocross (dirt circuit) RWD cars for many years, and always dreamt of hopping into a Sim and just driving exactly like I did in real life. When I first tried LFS - my first track was the RallyX, not the circuit, but was dissapointed by the understeer, especially on the 180 degree sweeping left hander on the first dirt section (where you change from 3rd down to 2nd as you brake). Last night, I created a new car profile and made some simple changes from the RallyCross settings, being Knobbly tyres, rear wheel brake bias, and stiffer suspension. Suddenly, the car (XR GT) handles just like my beloved 2 Litre Escort of many moon ago. For the first time on any Sim, I'm able to do a perfectly controlled power slide through any corner, and precisely tighten my line with the throttle. I can even through the car sideways under brakes into a 90 degree corner, get the power on early, and slide the car around the apex on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian flicks can also be perfectly executed. I'm going to practice for a little longer, then race online. Its going to be very interesting racing against the GPLers with their neat, neutral lines :-)))))))) However, first I have to go out and get some Red Bull, as I went to bed at 4AM this morning...... Tim

Holy s**t - you're right. I hadn't even considered using knobblies for that sort of track. Of course, this begs the question, why isn't it possible to do controlled slides with the default tyres?

Not enough grip ? -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aka9g4$1gnliv$[email hidden]... > Holy s**t - you're right. I hadn't even considered using knobblies for that > sort of track. Of course, this begs the question, why isn't it possible to > do controlled slides with the default tyres? > >

Default = hybrids? I guess they are a hybrid between tarmac and gravel tires, but since this rallytrack doesnt really need any tarmactires.. just a long straight, and a almost straight line thru the last corner, i guess the knobbles are better suited, since the tricky parts is on gravel. Love this game :) so much fun!. "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aka9g4$1gnliv$[email hidden]... > Holy s**t - you're right. I hadn't even considered using knobblies forthat > sort of track. Of course, this begs the question, why isn't it possibleto > do controlled slides with the default tyres? > >

Yep - not enough grip on the front tyres. You need the front tyres to be able to grip and give you turn in, so that you can then use the power to control the oversteer once you are sliding. Also, for power slides to be effective, you need the front tyres on opposite lock to be able to balance the pendulum effect of the rears, otherwise you'll be spinning out instead of sliding out. "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aka9pk$m7$[email hidden]...

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> Not enough grip ? > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spam> > > > "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aka9g4$1gnliv$[email hidden]... > > Holy s**t - you're right. I hadn't even considered using knobblies for > that > > sort of track. Of course, this begs the question, why isn't it possible > to > > do controlled slides with the default tyres? > > > > > >

Tim, do you have your setup for the rallyx track somewhere for download? if you want to share it that is? "Tim Epstein" <eppy@no)spam.pobox.com> wrote in message news:fa2a9.737$AN4.24767@newsfep2-gui... > Yep - not enough grip on the front tyres. > > You need the front tyres to be able to grip and give you turn in, so that > you can then use the power to control the oversteer once you are sliding. > > Also, for power slides to be effective, you need the front tyres onopposite

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> lock to be able to balance the pendulum effect of the rears, otherwise > you'll be spinning out instead of sliding out. > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aka9pk$m7$[email hidden]... > > Not enough grip ? > > > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spam> > > > > > > "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:aka9g4$1gnliv$[email hidden]... > > > Holy s**t - you're right. I hadn't even considered using knobblies

for > > that > > > sort of track. Of course, this begs the question, why isn't itpossible

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> > to > > > do controlled slides with the default tyres? > > > > > > > > > > > >

You're right; the knobblies are great in the dirt, but I'm ending up with about the same lap times because I'm losing a *lot* of time on the pavement compared to the other cars. Adjusting final drive and brakes helped a little. I think I'm going to stick with the knobblies because handling in the dirt seems to be more important for consistancy.

Andreas Nystrom wrote:

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> > Default = hybrids? > I guess they are a hybrid between tarmac and gravel tires, but since this > rallytrack doesnt really need any > tarmactires.. just a long straight, and a almost straight line thru the last > corner, i guess the knobbles are better > suited, since the tricky parts is on gravel. > Love this game :) so much fun!.

RallyX cars often runs on slicks as the surface is pretty hard in the gravel area on most of the tracks, so if you chose a really soft compound that heats up instantly, you'll have much more grip than you'd think possible, and if it has a big portion of the track paved, you'll have awesome grip there compared to the people running on "real" gravel tyres If the surface is slightly loose they sometimes cut some shallow grooves in them, the depth and number varying as to how lose it actually is, it's not common to se RallyX cars on "pure" gravel tyres like you sometimes see on Rally cars unless the class regs outlaws slicks of course :-), if it's raining it's a different ball game of course Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Yeaaahh.. right! I saw those tires listed right away, but didn't think anything about it. But now I feel stupid for not even trying them.. I can't wait. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Tim Epstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Tu1a9.617$AN4.18042@newsfep2-gui...

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> Hi, > > I finally experienced Sim Heaven last night. > > My Nirvana has always been an accurate rally Sim - one in which I could > balance a RWD car sideways making throttle as well as steering corrections > through bends. Rally Trophy was the most realistic Sim until now, but

never

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> had that degree of control - it was more a case of set the car up for the > corner and hope for the best. > > I used to Rally and Autocross (dirt circuit) RWD cars for many years, and > always dreamt of hopping into a Sim and just driving exactly like I did in > real life. When I first tried LFS - my first track was the RallyX, not the > circuit, but was dissapointed by the understeer, especially on the 180 > degree sweeping left hander on the first dirt section (where you change

from

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> 3rd down to 2nd as you brake). > > Last night, I created a new car profile and made some simple changes from > the RallyCross settings, being Knobbly tyres, rear wheel brake bias, and > stiffer suspension. > > Suddenly, the car (XR GT) handles just like my beloved 2 Litre Escort of > many moon ago. For the first time on any Sim, I'm able to do a perfectly > controlled power slide through any corner, and precisely tighten my line > with the throttle. I can even through the car sideways under brakes into a > 90 degree corner, get the power on early, and slide the car around the

apex > on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian flickscan > also be perfectly executed. > > I'm going to practice for a little longer, then race online. Its going tobe

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> very interesting racing against the GPLers with their neat, neutral lines > :-)))))))) > > However, first I have to go out and get some Red Bull, as I went to bed at > 4AM this morning...... > > Tim > > > > > > >

>on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian flicks can >also be perfectly executed. What is Scandanavian flicks ? Is it what we call in france "appeal/counter appeal", that's mean you first turn the car left for a right turn to increase the angular inertia during the right curve ? Sebastien TIXIER - Game Developer Dynamics and Car Physics http://www.eden-studios.fr GPLRank Normal:-44.24 Monster:-124.44

Tres bon! Exactly - you described it better than I can - your mastery of the English language is fanstastic :-) We often use the word "Scando" as a slang abbreviation for a scandanavian flick. It is named so because in the early 1960s the Fins were first to master this on snow on ice. As well as being useful to set the car up for a corner by first sliding a little the "wrong" way, and letting the car slide back into the corner, mastering a scando is very useful on S curves or a series of bends. It means that you can come out of one curve on opposite lock, and immediately let the car over-correct into oversteer the other way for the next curve. Tim "Sebastien Tixier" <stixier@wanadoo[NO_SPAM].fr> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian flickscan

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> >also be perfectly executed. > > What is Scandanavian flicks ? > > Is it what we call in france "appeal/counter appeal", that's mean you > first turn the car left for a right turn to increase the angular > inertia during the right curve ? > > Sebastien TIXIER - Game Developer > Dynamics and Car Physics > http://www.eden-studios.fr > GPLRank Normal:-44.24 Monster:-124.44 >

"Sebastien Tixier" <stixier@wanadoo[NO_SPAM].fr> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian flickscan > >also be perfectly executed. > > What is Scandanavian flicks ? I was gonna go see a Scandanavian flick once but I didn't have legal ID. dave henrie

It also reduces braking distances because you dig into the dirt and slow down much faster. Unfortunately, LFS doesn't model this! If they did, the dirt driving would feel perfect, but right now, you can feel the sliding doesn't feel *quite* like it does in real life. Thanks, Alex "Tim Epstein" <eppy@no)spam.pobox.com> wrote in message news:8Cta9.1906$[email hidden]... > Tres bon! Exactly - you described it better than I can - your mastery ofthe

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> English language is fanstastic :-) > > We often use the word "Scando" as a slang abbreviation for a scandanavian > flick. It is named so because in the early 1960s the Fins were first to > master this on snow on ice. > > As well as being useful to set the car up for a corner by first sliding a > little the "wrong" way, and letting the car slide back into the corner, > mastering a scando is very useful on S curves or a series of bends. It

means > that you can come out of one curve on opposite lock, and immediately letthe

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> car over-correct into oversteer the other way for the next curve. > > Tim > > > > "Sebastien Tixier" <stixier@wanadoo[NO_SPAM].fr> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian

flicks

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> can > > >also be perfectly executed. > > > > What is Scandanavian flicks ? > > > > Is it what we call in france "appeal/counter appeal", that's mean you > > first turn the car left for a right turn to increase the angular > > inertia during the right curve ? > > > > Sebastien TIXIER - Game Developer > > Dynamics and Car Physics > > http://www.eden-studios.fr > > GPLRank Normal:-44.24 Monster:-124.44 > > > >

They don't model dirt as a deformable surface, just as slippery tarmac essentially. Makes a HUGE difference. That's what makes sideways driving on dirt fast, because you can brake harder and turn in sideways. Plus, it "holds" the car in place somewhat. Thanks, Alex "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aka9g4$1gnliv$[email hidden]... > Holy s**t - you're right. I hadn't even considered using knobblies forthat > sort of track. Of course, this begs the question, why isn't it possibleto > do controlled slides with the default tyres? > >

AKA pendulum turns. I find that term easier to remember. "Uh... French turns? No... Swiss turns?.... No, that's not it...." ;o) "Tim Epstein" <eppy@no)spam.pobox.com> wrote in message news:8Cta9.1906$[email hidden]... > Tres bon! Exactly - you described it better than I can - your masteryof the > English language is fanstastic :-) > > We often use the word "Scando" as a slang abbreviation for ascandanavian > flick. It is named so because in the early 1960s the Fins were firstto > master this on snow on ice. > > As well as being useful to set the car up for a corner by firstsliding a > little the "wrong" way, and letting the car slide back into thecorner, > mastering a scando is very useful on S curves or a series of bends. Itmeans > that you can come out of one curve on opposite lock, and immediatelylet the

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> car over-correct into oversteer the other way for the next curve. > > Tim > > > > "Sebastien Tixier" <stixier@wanadoo[NO_SPAM].fr> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian

flicks > can > > >also be perfectly executed. > > > > What is Scandanavian flicks ? > > > > Is it what we call in france "appeal/counter appeal", that's meanyou

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> > first turn the car left for a right turn to increase the angular > > inertia during the right curve ? > > > > Sebastien TIXIER - Game Developer > > Dynamics and Car Physics > > http://www.eden-studios.fr > > GPLRank Normal:-44.24 Monster:-124.44 > > > >

One of the most important reasons for scandanavian flicks is for saftey reasons - to avoid dreaded understeer. If are going fast in a straight line, especially downhill, and hit a slippery patch of road at your turn in point, you might find out too late that your front tyres don't have enough grip to turn in and push the back out. The result can be terminal understeer and a major off. Ensuring the car is unbalanced by doing an early scando prevents this from happening, and doesn't cost you any time as rally cars can actually slow down sideways faster than they can in a straight line, as the wheels dig in. One important tip, at least in real life, is to always go over blind crests with a bit of attitude on the car, preferably the opposite way to the next bend. This is because is many cases you are commited to the next bend because of your speed, but won't be able to see it until you are over the crest, and are relying totally on your navigator's instructions. Here are the situations you can face when going over a blind crest and racing downhill very quickly: The next bend is tighter than you anticipated. Assuming it is a right hander, and you have gone over the crest with the car attitude a few degrees to the left, you will be landing/arriving with your front wheels turning right and can immediately let the car swing back and throw it full opposite lock the other way, slowing down as fast as possible and also setting up the attitude for the next bend The next bend is shallower than you anticipated, or further away. As you come over the crest, put on a little right lock to straighten the car and accelerate out of the slide. The navigator stuffed up and the next bend is actually a left hander. You're already pointing in the right attitude so just keep turning in. You come over the crest to discover a T Intersection in 50 meters. Depending on whether the car is left hand drive or right hand drive, throw the car sideways so that the passenger side of the car will hit the bank/ditch first. Hell - it was his/her mistake after all :-) Remember to remove your hands from the steering wheel just before you hit. btw - for those that don't understand smilies (I am in R.A.S. after all) the second sentence of the above paragraph was in jest. In reality, your reaction would depend on what lies beyond where you know you are going to have an off. If the impact is going to be hard (i.e. a solid wall or bank) you're better off going in backwards or straight in so that that the crumple zones can do their job. If you see some trees ahead, then best to keep control and try to steer around them rather than lock everything up or spin out. One final tips of having Offs.. If you find yourself fishtailing into a grassy field, and there is only tree in that entire field, you are probably going to hit that tree. Why? Because you'll be looking at that tree as your frame of reference as you go off, and sub-conciously correct the car towards it. So.. look away from that tree! "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0txa9.26371$[email hidden]...

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> It also reduces braking distances because you dig into the dirt and slow > down much faster. Unfortunately, LFS doesn't model this! If they did, the > dirt driving would feel perfect, but right now, you can feel the sliding > doesn't feel *quite* like it does in real life. > > Thanks, > Alex > "Tim Epstein" <eppy@no)spam.pobox.com> wrote in message > news:8Cta9.1906$[email hidden]... > > Tres bon! Exactly - you described it better than I can - your mastery of > the > > English language is fanstastic :-) > > > > We often use the word "Scando" as a slang abbreviation for a

scandanavian > > flick. It is named so because in the early 1960s the Fins were first to > > master this on snow on ice. > > > > As well as being useful to set the car up for a corner by first slidinga

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> > little the "wrong" way, and letting the car slide back into the corner, > > mastering a scando is very useful on S curves or a series of bends. It > means > > that you can come out of one curve on opposite lock, and immediately let > the > > car over-correct into oversteer the other way for the next curve. > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > "Sebastien Tixier" <stixier@wanadoo[NO_SPAM].fr> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > >on full opposite lock, just using throttle steering. Scandanavian > flicks > > can > > > >also be perfectly executed. > > > > > > What is Scandanavian flicks ? > > > > > > Is it what we call in france "appeal/counter appeal", that's mean you > > > first turn the car left for a right turn to increase the angular > > > inertia during the right curve ? > > > > > > Sebastien TIXIER - Game Developer > > > Dynamics and Car Physics > > > http://www.eden-studios.fr > > > GPLRank Normal:-44.24 Monster:-124.44 > > > > > > > > >

On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:31:17 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >AKA pendulum turns. I find that term easier to remember. > >"Uh... French turns? No... Swiss turns?.... No, that's not it...." French turn : don't turn in the esses, go through the gravels Master of French's turns : Jean Alesi ;o) Swiss turns : brake very early, go slow through the turn. Master of Swiss turns : Alex Young ;o) ( ndr : for the french swiss speak very slowy ;o) ) >> Tres bon! Exactly - you described it better than I can - your mastery >of the >> English language is fanstastic :-) Doh ! Have to call back my English teacher now ;o) Sebastien TIXIER - Game Developer Dynamics and Car Physics http://www.eden-studios.fr GPLRank Normal:-44.24 Monster:-124.44