RASCAR Bristol final edition

Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing their argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing the resolution: Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the yellow, Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does the same to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch dropped to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted John a couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No damage, except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high in T1, Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driver is sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it that way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warped out to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no fault either way - OOTRD. The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see the big deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not worried about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained some spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than would be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept going at about the same speed. I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any track. The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion. Shit happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping John's car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the rest of the race, and may have clouded later incidents. Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after next week's race. Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think that's the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the best I can. So be it... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think that's >the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the best >I >can. So be it... :-( > >Eldred Well I sure don't envy your job Eldred. I respect you for taking the inititive to rule though. I do know Mitch apologized and took responsibility for what happened between he and I and that was good enough for me. However I also support any rules and sanctions that you set as you see fit. I have never known you to be anything other than fair and open minded as well as a "laid back racer". BTW,,,can you suspend me for this week's race <g> Dan

Well, uhm, Im sorry about causing Mitch to slow and get the first hit. When the yellow came out, I started to gradually slow down while being careful not to pass anyone yet make it to the flag safely. Since my name was mentioned a couple of times , i can not help but feel bad about these incidents. grub "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airingtheir > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airingthe > resolution: > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take theyellow, > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does thesame > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitchdropped > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch puntedJohn a > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. Nodamage, > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted highin T1, > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driveris > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see itthat > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warpedout > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, nofault > either way - OOTRD. > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't seethe big > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely notworried > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gainedsome > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more thanwould > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept goingat > about the same speed. > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at anytrack. > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion.Shit > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tapppingJohn's > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the restof > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again afternext > week's race. > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I thinkthat's > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do thebest I

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> can. So be it... :-( > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Had it not been for her attitude towards me in the past nothing would have ever come of this. A person is only going to be called "stupid" so many times before all hell breaks loose. When she passed me under yellow I wasnt happy but I sure wasnt PO'd. I did make a couple cute type comments (who are you, Robby Gordon?). I tapped her twice, neither as hard as I would bump draft at dega :-) It's called making a point without any type of collateral damage, racers do it all the time! One other note, had it been anyone else other than me she surely wouldnt have cried like the girl she is. Prior to the race I just happened to read the new rules and passing under yellow was on the list. It took me quite a few laps behind her slowness to finally root my way around her, and she wasnt at all happy either as she faught me tooth and nail. I do finally get around her then out comes yellow and she repasses me, would anyone be happy? At the restart I thought she was giving me the spot back then she commences to try to wreck us both and nearly did. Brian did get caught up though, sadly. That's when I went ballistic. Last message on this topic. Mitch "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't seethe big > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely notworried > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gainedsome > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more thanwould > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept goingat

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> about the same speed. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

One thing I have noticed. With the no racing back to the line under yellow, I have nearly rear the car ahead of me due to a sudden drop off in speed. Should we maintain racing speed back to the line? "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airingtheir > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airingthe > resolution: > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take theyellow, > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does thesame > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitchdropped > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch puntedJohn a > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. Nodamage, > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted highin T1, > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driveris > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see itthat > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warpedout > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, nofault > either way - OOTRD. > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't seethe big > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely notworried > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gainedsome > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more thanwould > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept goingat > about the same speed. > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at anytrack. > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion.Shit > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tapppingJohn's > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the restof > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again afternext > week's race. > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I thinkthat's > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do thebest I

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> can. So be it... :-( > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I think we need a clarification about "slowing when the caution comes out" and the "Gentlemens agreement". When the caution comes out it does not mean to slam on your breaks or even, IMO, lifting all the way off. It means hold your position, and let up slightly. Basically, when the caution comes out don't continue to try and make that lap your hot lap of the race. I think people dramatically slowing as soon as the yellow waves can cause as much problems as racing back to the line like it was the last lap. Also, I personally don't have a problem with lappers trying to get a lap back as long as they can do it safely. Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled. If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much better opportunity to get a lap back. Double file may have been a problem at Darlington, but at California it should not be any more of a problem than single file. Brian Oster On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:14:54 -0400, "grubbat" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Well, uhm, Im sorry about causing Mitch to slow and get the first hit. When >the yellow came out, I started to gradually slow down while being careful >not to pass anyone yet make it to the flag safely. Since my name was >mentioned a couple of times , i can not help but feel bad about these >incidents. >grub > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing >their >> argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing >the >> resolution: >> >> Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the >yellow, >> Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does the >same >> to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch >dropped >> to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as >> much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted >John a >> couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No >damage, >> except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high >in T1, >> Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a >> problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driver >is >> sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it >that >> way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... >> >> Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warped >out >> to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no >fault >> either way - OOTRD. >> >> The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under >> yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see >the big >> deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not >worried >> about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained >some >> spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than >would >> be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept going >at >> about the same speed. >> >> I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his >> 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any >track. >> The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion. >Shit >> happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping >John's >> car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments >> made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the rest >of >> the race, and may have clouded later incidents. >> Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after >next >> week's race. >> >> Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think >that's >> the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the >best I >> can. So be it... :-( >> >> Eldred >> -- >> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett >> GPLRank:+8.09 >> N2002 Rank:+22.329 >> >> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

In article <MAVa9.146$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Had it not been for her attitude towards me in the past nothing would have > ever come of this. A person is only going to be called "stupid" so many > times before all hell breaks loose. When she passed me under yellow I wasnt > happy but I sure wasnt PO'd. I did make a couple cute type comments (who > are you, Robby Gordon?). I tapped her twice, neither as hard as I would > bump draft at dega :-) It's called making a point without any type of > collateral damage, racers do it all the time! One other note, had it been > anyone else other than me she surely wouldnt have cried like the girl she > is. Prior to the race I just happened to read the new rules and passing > under yellow was on the list. It > took me quite a few laps behind her slowness to finally root my way around > her, and she wasnt at all happy either as she faught me tooth and nail. I > do finally get around her then out comes yellow and she repasses me, would > anyone be happy? At the restart I thought she was giving me the spot back > then she > commences to try to wreck us both and nearly did. Brian did get caught up > though, sadly. That's when I went ballistic. > > Last message on this topic.

You just don't know when to quit, do ya Mitch... -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Well, one mo... I thought you killfiled me? LOL Youre just a glutton for punishment eh? Dam squids, no spines and very short VBG... Ft. Sam is quite nice in the summer.. And a right and a left.... Mitch "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> spewed in message > > > You just don't know when to quit, do ya Mitch... > > > --

Jeez guys, give it up. It's a GAME. Ryan "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:B_Wa9.167$[email hidden]...

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> Well, one mo... > > I thought you killfiled me? LOL Youre just a glutton for punishment eh? > Dam squids, no spines and very short VBG... Ft. Sam is quite nice in the > summer.. > > And a right and a left.... > > Mitch > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> spewed in message > > > > > You just don't know when to quit, do ya Mitch... > > > > > > -- > > >

"Ryan" wrote... > Jeez guys, give it up. It's a GAME. > Don't be naive... Jan. ;-) =---

Yes, like Brian said, just quit trying to pass and stop trying to defend. The race leader kind of sets the pace here. I recommend backing off just enough so that you are well within your traction limits in case you have to make evasive actions. 5-10 mph should be plenty. If positions get swapped, try to sort it out after the restart. If somebody really takes advantage maybe you can take it up with Eldred. The only reason to slow down is to fall in with the pace car, or to avoid hitting something. Always be ready to slow down. Gerald "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ruVa9.19039$[email hidden]>...

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> One thing I have noticed. With the no racing back to the line under yellow, > I have nearly rear the car ahead of me due to a sudden drop off in speed. > Should we maintain racing speed back to the line? > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing > their > > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing > the > > resolution: > > > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the > yellow, > > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does the > same > > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch > dropped > > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as > > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted > John a > > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No > damage, > > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high > in T1, > > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a > > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driver > is > > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it > that > > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warped > out > > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no > fault > > either way - OOTRD. > > > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under > > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see > the big > > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not > worried > > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained > some > > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than > would > > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept going > at > > about the same speed. > > > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his > > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any > track. > > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion. > Shit > > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping > John's > > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments > > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the rest > of > > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after > next > > week's race. > > > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think > that's > > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the > best I > > can. So be it... :-( > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Ahh. Hadn't got that post yet. I was wonderin if I was the only one who noticed a problem there... "Gerald Moore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yes, like Brian said, just quit trying to pass and stop trying to > defend. The race leader kind of sets the pace here. I recommend > backing off just enough so that you are well within your traction > limits in case you have to make evasive actions. 5-10 mph should be > plenty. If positions get swapped, try to sort it out after the > restart. If somebody really takes advantage maybe you can take it up > with Eldred. > > The only reason to slow down is to fall in with the pace car, or to > avoid hitting something. Always be ready to slow down. > > > Gerald > > > "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<ruVa9.19039$[email hidden]>... > > One thing I have noticed. With the no racing back to the line underyellow, > > I have nearly rear the car ahead of me due to a sudden drop off inspeed.

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> > Should we maintain racing speed back to the line? > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing > > their > > > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also

airing > > the > > > resolution: > > > > > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to takethe > > yellow, > > > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John doesthe > > same > > > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, butMitch > > dropped > > > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, butnot as > > > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted > > John a > > > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No > > damage, > > > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John driftedhigh > > in T1, > > > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough tocause a > > > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Eachdriver > > is > > > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't seeit > > that > > > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > > > > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's carwarped > > out > > > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again,no > > fault > > > either way - OOTRD. > > > > > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spotunder > > > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don'tsee > > the big > > > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likelynot > > worried > > > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and Igained > > some > > > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down morethan > > would > > > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just keptgoing > > at > > > about the same speed. > > > > > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents werehis > > > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any > > track. > > > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in myopinion. > > Shit > > > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch'stappping > > John's > > > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory.Comments > > > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to therest > > of > > > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > > > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join againafter > > next > > > week's race. > > > > > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think > > that's > > > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I dothe

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> > best I > > > can. So be it... :-( > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aFZa9.97$[email hidden]... > Jeez guys, give it up. It's a GAME. > Although I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post and the point you are making, I must propose an alternate theory with regards to what online racing is. Rather than being merely a game, perhaps it is an *escape from this reality*. What if, by immersing yourself in your favorite sim, you are transported to *a different dimension*. Mathematical models indicate that our universe could have many more dimensions than was previously thought. It could be argued that sim racing has opened a door to one of these dimensions. Perhaps we not viewing a disagreement over a game, but a universe much younger than the one we presently know. Maybe what we are seeing here is the incredible release of energy one would expect to see when matter and antimatter meet. Gentlemen, we may very well have inadvertently stumbled upon the one thing man has wondered about since he first raised his eyes toward the night sky . . . . the beginning of time. <sigh> Where the hell is Stephen Hawkings when you really need him.....

Just My Two Cents: 1. I think the analysis was a fair judgment......of the best "facts" available (the server's replay).....by the best person available to make the judgment call. 2. "Retaliation" is unacceptable in all forms......a one-race suspension is very lenient, IMHO. 3. "No double-file restarts" and "no racing back to the yellow" are special rules designed to "assist" newbies? What assistance does it provide except prevent them from learning how to race (under yellow or in realistic restart situations) properly. Each of these "training wheel rules" just introduces a new set of problems to deal with.....it doesn't prevent problems where newbies are concerned (never has, never will). In my opinion, and in respect for how difficult learning to race "NASCAR-style" is for new sim drivers, there should **not** be any "training wheel" rules adopted for RASCAR races. There's no points championship, the "results" of the race are not important. "Learning".....is the only importance....and having fun with some friends, while doing so......is the goal. So, why the special rules for newbies? I think the only thing the "special rules" accomplish is to slow their learning curve. 5. Eldred, you do not ever have to apologize for "making a ruling" or doing the job necessary to admin the RASCAR races. Thank you.......for standing up and taking the heat as you have done for many weeks now. Regards, Tom "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airingtheir > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airingthe > resolution: > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take theyellow, > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does thesame > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitchdropped > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch puntedJohn a > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. Nodamage, > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted highin T1, > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driveris > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see itthat > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warpedout > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, nofault > either way - OOTRD. > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't seethe big > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely notworried > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gainedsome > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more thanwould > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept goingat > about the same speed. > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at anytrack. > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion.Shit > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tapppingJohn's > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the restof > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again afternext > week's race. > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I thinkthat's > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do thebest I

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> can. So be it... :-( > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

There is one solution for Retaliation type situations - lifetime ban. It happened once in our league and the guy was gone that day and is not permitted back. Sure we all make mistakes but this has no place in sim racing IMHO. In another league I was in a similar event went without any follow-up and helped tear the league apart. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dk6b9.47004$[email hidden]... > Just My Two Cents: > > 1. I think the analysis was a fair judgment......of the best "facts" > available (the server's replay).....by the best person available to makethe > judgment call. > 2. "Retaliation" is unacceptable in all forms......a one-race suspensionis > very lenient, IMHO. > 3. "No double-file restarts" and "no racing back to the yellow" arespecial > rules designed to "assist" newbies? What assistance does it provideexcept > prevent them from learning how to race (under yellow or in realisticrestart > situations) properly. Each of these "training wheel rules" justintroduces > a new set of problems to deal with.....it doesn't prevent problems where > newbies are concerned (never has, never will). In my opinion, and in > respect for how difficult learning to race "NASCAR-style" is for new sim > drivers, there should **not** be any "training wheel" rules adopted for > RASCAR races. There's no points championship, the "results" of the raceare > not important. "Learning".....is the only importance....and having funwith > some friends, while doing so......is the goal. So, why the special rules > for newbies? I think the only thing the "special rules" accomplish is to > slow their learning curve. > 5. Eldred, you do not ever have to apologize for "making a ruling" ordoing

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> the job necessary to admin the RASCAR races. Thank you.......for standing > up and taking the heat as you have done for many weeks now. > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing > their > > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing > the > > resolution: > > > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the > yellow, > > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does

the > same > > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch > dropped > > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but notas

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> > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted > John a > > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No > damage, > > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high > in T1, > > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause

a > > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Eachdriver > is > > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it > that > > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's carwarped

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> out > > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no > fault > > either way - OOTRD. > > > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under > > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see > the big > > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not > worried > > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained > some > > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than > would > > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept

going > at > > about the same speed. > > > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents werehis > > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any > track. > > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in myopinion. > Shit > > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping > John's > > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments > > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to therest

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> of > > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after > next > > week's race. > > > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think > that's > > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the > best I > > can. So be it... :-( > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

In article <MAVa9.146$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> writes: >Had it not been for her attitude towards me in the past nothing would have >ever come of this. Mitch, Mitch...Let it GO. Please... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes:

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>Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled. >If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back >to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also >found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD >to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to >work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in >and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the >re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh >tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much >better opportunity to get a lap back.

Usually, the cars that are a lap down are there for a reason - they're slower. Even if you DO manage to get the jump on the leader he is still faster, and now you're holding him up with 2nd and 3rd place at his heels... Personally, I don't like starting next to the leader as a lapped car. I can't keep up enough to TRY to get my lap back, and then I have to alter my driving to let everyone ELSE get by so I'm not holding them up... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldred.... Welcome to the "responsibility" of being a lapped car. Starting in the low line at the front of the grid is no different in a "restart" than in the race start. Hold your line - is the responsibility of the driver........same thing in both instances. Do you skip qualifying and start at the back of the field always? Of course not......so what's different? I don't get it. Remember....being "slow" is only one of several reasons you are a lap down. How about = you are leading the race, you are the fastest car on the track.....you pit under green and as you come out of the pits.....a yellow comes out? That makes you the fastest car on the track....AND, one lap down. TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster > <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: > > >Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled. > >If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back > >to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also > >found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD > >to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to > >work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in > >and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the > >re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh > >tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much > >better opportunity to get a lap back. > > Usually, the cars that are a lap down are there for a reason - they're

slower. > Even if you DO manage to get the jump on the leader he is still faster,and now > you're holding him up with 2nd and 3rd place at his heels... > Personally, I don't like starting next to the leader as a lapped car. Ican't > keep up enough to TRY to get my lap back, and then I have to alter mydriving

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> to let everyone ELSE get by so I'm not holding them up... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Schooner....I am more in line with your thinking, as well. Even if Mitch was simply "sending a bumper horn signal" - he took the risk of it appearing to be "retaliation" as observed by "race officials" (in this case, Eldred). Same thing Tony Stewart, Robby Gordon...."claimed" in a couple NASCAR races. The NASCAR officials didn't buy it.....neither did Eldred....that's good. And, with online sim racing, warp factors....etc., what Mitch did took a considerable risk of knocking the other driver out of the race...or sustaining serious damage. How was the "collision damage code" in N2K2 supposed to know..."Mitch was just kidding?" Message to Mitch: 1. Don't send me personal email about this......ever again. 2. Shut the fuck up about it and consider yourself lucky its only a "one race" suspension. Had I been Eldred....you would be gone permanently from RASCAR races. 3. Learning to control you emotions in the race car, during the race.....is part of the "learning process" of becoming a veteran sim driver. You can "blow steam" after the race (privately). Never "blow steam" after a race, publicly. Most league admins will consider that the same as "retaliation" during the race and suspend your ass, just the same! NASCAR does the same thing.....so this isn't something that should come as a surprise to you, huh? Regards, Tom "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Lq6b9.28290$[email hidden]...

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> There is one solution for Retaliation type situations - lifetime ban. It > happened once in our league and the guy was gone that day and is not > permitted back. Sure we all make mistakes but this has no place in sim > racing IMHO. > In another league I was in a similar event went without any follow-up and > helped tear the league apart. > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dk6b9.47004$[email hidden]... > > Just My Two Cents: > > > > 1. I think the analysis was a fair judgment......of the best "facts" > > available (the server's replay).....by the best person available to make > the > > judgment call. > > 2. "Retaliation" is unacceptable in all forms......a one-race

suspension

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> is > > very lenient, IMHO. > > 3. "No double-file restarts" and "no racing back to the yellow" are > special > > rules designed to "assist" newbies? What assistance does it provide > except > > prevent them from learning how to race (under yellow or in realistic > restart > > situations) properly. Each of these "training wheel rules" just > introduces > > a new set of problems to deal with.....it doesn't prevent problems where > > newbies are concerned (never has, never will). In my opinion, and in > > respect for how difficult learning to race "NASCAR-style" is for new sim > > drivers, there should **not** be any "training wheel" rules adopted for > > RASCAR races. There's no points championship, the "results" of the race > are > > not important. "Learning".....is the only importance....and having fun > with > > some friends, while doing so......is the goal. So, why the special

rules > > for newbies? I think the only thing the "special rules" accomplish isto > > slow their learning curve. > > 5. Eldred, you do not ever have to apologize for "making a ruling" or > doing > > the job necessary to admin the RASCAR races. Thank you.......forstanding

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> > up and taking the heat as you have done for many weeks now. > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing > > their > > > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also

airing > > the > > > resolution: > > > > > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to takethe > > yellow, > > > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does > the > > same > > > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, butMitch > > dropped > > > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, butnot > as > > > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted > > John a > > > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No > > damage, > > > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John driftedhigh > > in T1, > > > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough tocause > a > > > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each > driver > > is > > > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't seeit

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> > that > > > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > > > > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car > warped > > out > > > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again,

no > > fault > > > either way - OOTRD. > > > > > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spotunder > > > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don'tsee > > the big > > > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likelynot > > worried > > > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and Igained > > some > > > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down morethan

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> > would > > > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept > going > > at > > > about the same speed. > > > > > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were > his > > > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any > > track. > > > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my > opinion. > > Shit > > > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's

tappping > > John's > > > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory.Comments > > > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the > rest > > of > > > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > > > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join againafter > > next > > > week's race. > > > > > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think > > that's > > > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I dothe

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> > best I > > > can. So be it... :-( > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

Which reminds me, If we don't have double file restarts that give people a chance to get a lap back and hopefully improve their finishing position, then why even have yellows? fwiw I disagree that people who get down a lap are only there because they are slower. 1) You could get booted while in the lead 2) You could be up front, short pit during a long green flag run (like that happens in RASCAR lol) and out comes a caution 3) You could get punted while running upfront, whether on purpose or by accident For guys who are perennial backmarkers, sure who minds that they always restart in the back. But if you going to automatically determine someones finish in the middle of the race with single file restarts then just turn off the cautions for those who wreck each other a lot less. Or at least have a no passing in turn one rule. justmy .02 -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Usually, the cars that are a lap down are there for a reason - they're slower. Even if you DO manage to get the jump on the leader he is still faster, and now you're holding him up with 2nd and 3rd place at his heels...

Good one. :-) David G Fisher "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3T5b9.86454$%[email hidden]...

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> > "Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aFZa9.97$[email hidden]... > > Jeez guys, give it up. It's a GAME. > > > > Although I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post and the point > you are making, I must propose an alternate theory with regards to what > online racing is. > > Rather than being merely a game, perhaps it is an *escape from this > reality*. What if, by immersing yourself in your favorite sim, you are > transported to *a different dimension*. Mathematical models indicate that > our universe could have many more dimensions than was previously thought.

It > could be argued that sim racing has opened a door to one of these > dimensions. > > Perhaps we not viewing a disagreement over a game, but a universe much > younger than the one we presently know. Maybe what we are seeing here isthe > incredible release of energy one would expect to see when matter and > antimatter meet. > > Gentlemen, we may very well have inadvertently stumbled upon the one thing > man has wondered about since he first raised his eyes toward the night sky.

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> . . . the beginning of time. > > > <sigh> Where the hell is Stephen Hawkings when you really need him..... > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster > <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: > > >Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled. > >If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back > >to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also > >found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD > >to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to > >work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in > >and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the > >re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh > >tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much > >better opportunity to get a lap back. > > Usually, the cars that are a lap down are there for a reason - they're slower.

Not *always*. Sometimes, they're serving a bogus black flag. Sometimes, they get in a wreck and have to spend more time than everyone else in the pits, but they come out just as fast as they were before the incident. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

In article <Gd8b9.54805$[email hidden]>, "Tim" <[email hidden]> writes: >I disagree that people who get down a lap are only there because they = >are slower. I didn't say *only* - I said *usually*...sigh... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <eW7b9.22142$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Eldred.... > >Welcome to the "responsibility" of being a lapped car. Starting in the low >line at the front of the grid is no different in a "restart" than in the >race start. Hold your line - is the responsibility of the >driver........same thing in both instances. Do you skip qualifying and >start at the back of the field always? Of course not......so what's >different? I don't get it.

Actually I usually DO skip qualifying - or purposely drive a slower lap... >Remember....being "slow" is only one of several reasons you are a lap down. >How about = you are leading the race, you are the fastest car on the >track.....you pit under green and as you come out of the pits.....a yellow >comes out? That makes you the fastest car on the track....AND, one lap >down. That's why I didn't say lapped cars ARE there for a reason - I said 'usually'...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:40:26 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Eldred.... > >Welcome to the "responsibility" of being a lapped car. Starting in the low >line at the front of the grid is no different in a "restart" than in the >race start. Hold your line - is the responsibility of the >driver........same thing in both instances. Do you skip qualifying and >start at the back of the field always? Of course not......so what's >different? I don't get it. > >Remember....being "slow" is only one of several reasons you are a lap down. >How about = you are leading the race, you are the fastest car on the >track.....you pit under green and as you come out of the pits.....a yellow >comes out? That makes you the fastest car on the track....AND, one lap >down. > >TP

Or like at Bristol last week I got a BF and went two laps down. With fresh tires and the inside line I probably could have gotten ahead of an stayed ahead of the leader. Or at Indy where I DISCO'd but was able to rejoin only down 2 or 3 laps. Of course I was trying to race Grandy to get my laps back there and even with newer tires it was pointless :). Brian Oster

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> > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster >> <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: >> >> >Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled. >> >If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back >> >to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also >> >found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD >> >to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to >> >work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in >> >and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the >> >re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh >> >tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much >> >better opportunity to get a lap back. >> >> Usually, the cars that are a lap down are there for a reason - they're >slower. >> Even if you DO manage to get the jump on the leader he is still faster, >and now >> you're holding him up with 2nd and 3rd place at his heels... >> Personally, I don't like starting next to the leader as a lapped car. I >can't >> keep up enough to TRY to get my lap back, and then I have to alter my >driving >> to let everyone ELSE get by so I'm not holding them up... >> >> Eldred >> -- >> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett >> GPLRank:+8.09 >> N2002 Rank:+22.329 >> >> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:40:26 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Eldred.... > >Welcome to the "responsibility" of being a lapped car. Starting in the low >line at the front of the grid is no different in a "restart" than in the >race start. Hold your line - is the responsibility of the >driver........same thing in both instances. Do you skip qualifying and >start at the back of the field always? Of course not......so what's >different? I don't get it.

I would also add that it is the responsibility of the lead-lap cars to safely clear the slower lap cars (if they are indeed slower). This is where you HAVE to exercise some patience. Brian Oster

"jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3T5b9.86454$%[email hidden]...

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> > "Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aFZa9.97$[email hidden]... > > Jeez guys, give it up. It's a GAME. > > > > Although I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post and the point > you are making, I must propose an alternate theory with regards to what > online racing is. > > Rather than being merely a game, perhaps it is an *escape from this > reality*. What if, by immersing yourself in your favorite sim, you are > transported to *a different dimension*. Mathematical models indicate that > our universe could have many more dimensions than was previously thought.

It > could be argued that sim racing has opened a door to one of these > dimensions. > > Perhaps we not viewing a disagreement over a game, but a universe much > younger than the one we presently know. Maybe what we are seeing here isthe > incredible release of energy one would expect to see when matter and > antimatter meet. > > Gentlemen, we may very well have inadvertently stumbled upon the one thing > man has wondered about since he first raised his eyes toward the night sky. > . . . the beginning of time. > > > <sigh> Where the hell is Stephen Hawkings when you really need him..... > Trying to find a contoller that uses thought as input to get in some laps in GPL & LFS. What else ? ;o) Elrikk

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: >I would also add that it is the responsibility of the lead-lap cars to >safely clear the slower lap cars (if they are indeed slower). This is >where you HAVE to exercise some patience. And that doesn't always happen. I often find myself in front of a group of faster drivers(mostly GPL) whose attitude seems to be "Get outta the way NOW!" Nevermind the fact that the reason they're behind me in the FIRST place is that they spun off the track... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dKfb9.72951$[email hidden]... > > Trying to find a contoller that uses thought as input to get in some lapsin > GPL & LFS. > > What else ? ;o) > > Elrikk How do you reckon he talks through that voice box of his ? Think he might be typin it all in with his eyelids? Allways wondered about that...

Brian has a point here. No racing to Green and single-file restarts are inherently incompatible when it comes to lap-down cars. We definitely had a few confilics with this at Bristol. -Larry "Brian Oster" <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I think we need a clarification about "slowing when the caution comes > out" and the "Gentlemens agreement". When the caution comes out it > does not mean to slam on your breaks or even, IMO, lifting all the way > off. It means hold your position, and let up slightly. Basically, > when the caution comes out don't continue to try and make that lap > your hot lap of the race. I think people dramatically slowing as soon > as the yellow waves can cause as much problems as racing back to the > line like it was the last lap. Also, I personally don't have a > problem with lappers trying to get a lap back as long as they can do > it safely. > > Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled. > If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back > to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also > found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD > to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to > work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in > and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the > re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh > tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much > better opportunity to get a lap back. > > Double file may have been a problem at Darlington, but at California > it should not be any more of a problem than single file. > > Brian Oster > > On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:14:54 -0400, "grubbat" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Well, uhm, Im sorry about causing Mitch to slow and get the first hit.

When

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> >the yellow came out, I started to gradually slow down while being careful > >not to pass anyone yet make it to the flag safely. Since my name was > >mentioned a couple of times , i can not help but feel bad about these > >incidents. > >grub > > > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing > >their > >> argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also

airing > >the > >> resolution: > >> > >> Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the > >yellow, > >> Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John doesthe > >same > >> to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch > >dropped > >> to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but notas > >> much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted > >John a > >> couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No > >damage, > >> except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John driftedhigh > >in T1, > >> Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough tocause a > >> problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Eachdriver > >is > >> sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't seeit > >that > >> way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > >> > >> Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's carwarped > >out > >> to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again,no > >fault > >> either way - OOTRD. > >> > >> The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spotunder > >> yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see > >the big > >> deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not > >worried > >> about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and Igained > >some > >> spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down morethan > >would > >> be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just keptgoing > >at > >> about the same speed. > >> > >> I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents werehis > >> 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any > >track. > >> The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in myopinion. > >Shit > >> happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping > >John's > >> car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory.Comments > >> made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to therest > >of > >> the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > >> Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join againafter

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> >next > >> week's race. > >> > >> Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think > >that's > >> the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the > >best I > >> can. So be it... :-( > >> > >> Eldred > >> -- > >> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > >> GPLRank:+8.09 > >> N2002 Rank:+22.329 > >> > >> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > >

I think Eldreds approach is a bit more balanced. Everyone makes mistakes. -Larry "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Lq6b9.28290$[email hidden]...

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> There is one solution for Retaliation type situations - lifetime ban. It > happened once in our league and the guy was gone that day and is not > permitted back. Sure we all make mistakes but this has no place in sim > racing IMHO. > In another league I was in a similar event went without any follow-up and > helped tear the league apart. > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dk6b9.47004$[email hidden]... > > Just My Two Cents: > > > > 1. I think the analysis was a fair judgment......of the best "facts" > > available (the server's replay).....by the best person available to make > the > > judgment call. > > 2. "Retaliation" is unacceptable in all forms......a one-race

suspension

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> is > > very lenient, IMHO. > > 3. "No double-file restarts" and "no racing back to the yellow" are > special > > rules designed to "assist" newbies? What assistance does it provide > except > > prevent them from learning how to race (under yellow or in realistic > restart > > situations) properly. Each of these "training wheel rules" just > introduces > > a new set of problems to deal with.....it doesn't prevent problems where > > newbies are concerned (never has, never will). In my opinion, and in > > respect for how difficult learning to race "NASCAR-style" is for new sim > > drivers, there should **not** be any "training wheel" rules adopted for > > RASCAR races. There's no points championship, the "results" of the race > are > > not important. "Learning".....is the only importance....and having fun > with > > some friends, while doing so......is the goal. So, why the special

rules > > for newbies? I think the only thing the "special rules" accomplish isto > > slow their learning curve. > > 5. Eldred, you do not ever have to apologize for "making a ruling" or > doing > > the job necessary to admin the RASCAR races. Thank you.......forstanding

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> > up and taking the heat as you have done for many weeks now. > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing > > their > > > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also

airing > > the > > > resolution: > > > > > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to takethe > > yellow, > > > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does > the > > same > > > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, butMitch > > dropped > > > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, butnot > as > > > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted > > John a > > > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No > > damage, > > > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John driftedhigh > > in T1, > > > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough tocause > a > > > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each > driver > > is > > > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't seeit

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> > that > > > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD... > > > > > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car > warped > > out > > > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again,

no > > fault > > > either way - OOTRD. > > > > > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spotunder > > > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don'tsee > > the big > > > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likelynot > > worried > > > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and Igained > > some > > > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down morethan

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> > would > > > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept > going > > at > > > about the same speed. > > > > > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were > his > > > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any > > track. > > > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my > opinion. > > Shit > > > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's

tappping > > John's > > > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory.Comments > > > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the > rest > > of > > > the race, and may have clouded later incidents. > > > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join againafter > > next > > > week's race. > > > > > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think > > that's > > > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I dothe

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> > best I > > > can. So be it... :-( > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > >

Your #2 is a DAMNED fine point in this matter! -Larry "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Gd8b9.54805$[email hidden]... Which reminds me, If we don't have double file restarts that give people a chance to get a lap back and hopefully improve their finishing position, then why even have yellows? fwiw I disagree that people who get down a lap are only there because they are slower. 1) You could get booted while in the lead 2) You could be up front, short pit during a long green flag run (like that happens in RASCAR lol) and out comes a caution 3) You could get punted while running upfront, whether on purpose or by accident For guys who are perennial backmarkers, sure who minds that they always restart in the back. But if you going to automatically determine someones finish in the middle of the race with single file restarts then just turn off the cautions for those who wreck each other a lot less. Or at least have a no passing in turn one rule. justmy .02 -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Usually, the cars that are a lap down are there for a reason - they're slower. Even if you DO manage to get the jump on the leader he is still faster, and now you're holding him up with 2nd and 3rd place at his heels...

Well, that's _usually_ true, but not always. Sometimes guys get caught up and spun in things that aren't there own doing, and they are very capable of running fast. Let's say Ginger gets spun out by accident, has no damage, but gets lapped in the process. With the current rules combination, his skills as a fast race driver are basically erased by the rules combination in place. -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster > <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.com> writes: > > >Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled. > >If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back > >to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also > >found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD > >to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to > >work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in > >and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the > >re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh > >tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much > >better opportunity to get a lap back. > > Usually, the cars that are a lap down are there for a reason - they're

slower. > Even if you DO manage to get the jump on the leader he is still faster,and now > you're holding him up with 2nd and 3rd place at his heels... > Personally, I don't like starting next to the leader as a lapped car. Ican't > keep up enough to TRY to get my lap back, and then I have to alter mydriving

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> to let everyone ELSE get by so I'm not holding them up... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Not really. It's more serious than that to some of us. Remember, until TEN went under, we were a sactioned body of NASCAR. -Larry "Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aFZa9.97$[email hidden]...

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> Jeez guys, give it up. It's a GAME. > > Ryan > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:B_Wa9.167$[email hidden]... > > Well, one mo... > > > > I thought you killfiled me? LOL Youre just a glutton for punishment

eh? > > Dam squids, no spines and very short VBG... Ft. Sam is quite nice inthe

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> > summer.. > > > > And a right and a left.... > > > > Mitch > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> spewed in message > > > > > > > You just don't know when to quit, do ya Mitch... > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > >

In article <Pstb9.25280$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes: >Let's say Ginger gets spun out by accident, has no damage, but gets lapped >in the process. With the current rules combination, his skills as a fast >race driver are basically erased by the rules combination in place. I would bet on Ginger being able to make that up 95% of the time...<g> I would also bet on myself NOT being able to make up a lap, even with DF restarts... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

then why not just turn yellows off, that way people have an extra incentive not to wreck and you couldnt get your lap back anyway with it on. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <Pstb9.25280$[email hidden]>, "Larry" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Let's say Ginger gets spun out by accident, has no damage, but getslapped > >in the process. With the current rules combination, his skills as a fast > >race driver are basically erased by the rules combination in place. > > I would bet on Ginger being able to make that up 95% of the time...<g> Iwould > also bet on myself NOT being able to make up a lap, even with DFrestarts...

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> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Yellows, especially in our long races, are too key to strategy and realism. There are a couple of races that I would have likely won due to pit strategy had it not been for last-minute cautions. If you can't be the fastest, sometimes it's good enough to be a little smarter :) No, yellows have to stay. -Larry "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8Xzb9.96514$%[email hidden]... > then why not just turn yellows off, that way people have an extraincentive

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> not to wreck and you couldnt get your lap back anyway with it on. > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Pstb9.25280$[email hidden]>, "Larry" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Let's say Ginger gets spun out by accident, has no damage, but gets > lapped > > >in the process. With the current rules combination, his skills as a

fast > > >race driver are basically erased by the rules combination in place. > > > > I would bet on Ginger being able to make that up 95% of the time...<g>I

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> would > > also bet on myself NOT being able to make up a lap, even with DF > restarts... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.09 > > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > >

Well, when you run almost 50% of a race under yellow you pretty much can throw pit strategy out the window don't you think? :) -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YlAb9.26525$[email hidden]... Yellows, especially in our long races, are too key to strategy and realism. There are a couple of races that I would have likely won due to pit strategy had it not been for last-minute cautions. If you can't be the fastest, sometimes it's good enough to be a little smarter :) No, yellows have to stay. -Larry

Ed did some research about a month ago and found that 35% of the races have been run under yellow, with an average of about 8 yellows per race. David G Fisher "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:atBb9.37744$[email hidden]... Well, when you run almost 50% of a race under yellow you pretty much can throw pit strategy out the window don't you think? :) -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YlAb9.26525$[email hidden]... Yellows, especially in our long races, are too key to strategy and realism. There are a couple of races that I would have likely won due to pit strategy had it not been for last-minute cautions. If you can't be the fastest, sometimes it's good enough to be a little smarter :) No, yellows have to stay. -Larry

In article <8Xzb9.96514$%[email hidden]>, "frederickson" <[email hidden]> writes: >then why not just turn yellows off, that way people have an extra incentive >not to wreck and you couldnt get your lap back anyway with it on. Because people complained at Pocono about getting caught up in others' incidents. That took them out of the fight through no fault of their own. It's a no-win situation... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.09 N2002 Rank:+22.329 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Our races generally are not that bad. -Larry "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:atBb9.37744$[email hidden]... Well, when you run almost 50% of a race under yellow you pretty much can throw pit strategy out the window don't you think? :) -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YlAb9.26525$[email hidden]... Yellows, especially in our long races, are too key to strategy and realism. There are a couple of races that I would have likely won due to pit strategy had it not been for last-minute cautions. If you can't be the fastest, sometimes it's good enough to be a little smarter :) No, yellows have to stay. -Larry

It's better this way. Shows who has patience and who doesn't :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <8Xzb9.96514$%[email hidden]>, > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> writes: > > >then why not just turn yellows off, that way people have an extraincentive

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> >not to wreck and you couldnt get your lap back anyway with it on. > > Because people complained at Pocono about getting caught up in others' > incidents. That took them out of the fight through no fault of their own. > It's a no-win situation... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.09 > N2002 Rank:+22.329 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.