OT: How many watts do i need in a UPS

My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On compusa.com there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 bucks when you print the discount page out.

for what you need, that'll do the job. Just make sure only the PC, and not your monitor is connected. Of course it means you won't see anything when the power goes out, but that's not why you're buying it! Another option is to buy a power filter instead of UPS - they are normally cheaper, but with what you've been quoted, a small UPS can't go wrong. Er.. I just noticed something - the special says battery backup, not UPS??? Be careful. If its a battery backup and not a UPS, then it normally runs is bypass mode (no filtering). In that case, it'll take a quite a few milliseconds to switch, and mightn't solve your problem. I suspect there may be a problem with your PC's power supply. They have quite big capacitors in them, and should be able to handle minor surge or disruption for a few hundred milliseconds or so. "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]...

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> My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On compusa.com > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > >

I would recommend AT LEAST a 650w UPS, possibly larger (750w). If he's racing, he can't afford to "not see anything". But it should give him a chance to slow and park in the pits until either a) the poower comes back, or b) he decides it's not worth the rist and shuts all the way down. In article <ATbc9.3058$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> for what you need, that'll do the job. Just make sure only the PC, and not > your monitor is connected. Of course it means you won't see anything when > the power goes out, but that's not why you're buying it! > > Another option is to buy a power filter instead of UPS - they are normally > cheaper, but with what you've been quoted, a small UPS can't go wrong. > > Er.. I just noticed something - the special says battery backup, not UPS??? > Be careful. If its a battery backup and not a UPS, then it normally runs is > bypass mode (no filtering). In that case, it'll take a quite a few > milliseconds to switch, and mightn't solve your problem. > > I suspect there may be a problem with your PC's power supply. They have > quite big capacitors in them, and should be able to handle minor surge or > disruption for a few hundred milliseconds or so. > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]... > > My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On compusa.com > > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > > bucks when you print the discount page out. > >

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"John Simmons" wrote... > I would recommend AT LEAST a 650w UPS, possibly larger > (750w). If he's racing, he can't afford to "not see > anything". But it should give him a chance to slow > and park in the pits until either a) the poower comes > back, or b) he decides it's not worth the rist and > shuts all the way down. Yes John, but his problem is not really power outtage, but rather supply noise, so anything that can power his DSL modem would theoritically be sufficient (and 500W should suffice for 350W PC + small monitor + modem). That's why I originally suggested a noise suppressor, but it would seem by Fred's reaction those are even more uncommon in the US than they are here. Using the line voltage to charge the bateries and converting this voltage (12Vdc) back to line voltage (110Vac) as in an UPS is, theorethically, a sure way to kill all transients on it, so that should work too. And there's the added bonus of being able to survive a small power cut. As with anything power related (supplies, cars, audio amplifiers, ... ), though, the more overhead the better, no question. Jan. =---

As big as you can afford. Watch MicroCenter's circulars (if there is a store near you). Every now and then, they get a little crazy and put the APC BackUPS Pro 1100 on sale for $149 out the door. It's a $350+ UPS. I tend to go a little overboard on UPS's, but I firmly believe that a well fed computer is a happy computer :) My File Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. My Terminal Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. My main desktop has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. My G4 iMac has a BackUPS Pro 500 on it. My Network Equipment (Router, Cable Modem, Wireless Access Point) has it's own BackUPS Pro 500. With the exception of the Laser Printer (you never put those on a UPS) and the Klipsch ProMedia 5.1's, my entire house full of equipment can stay up for about 45 minutes during a power failure. The main desktop may be less because 22" monitors suck serious juice. -Larry "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]...

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> My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On compusa.com > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > >

Oh, btw... APC used to have a UPS 'Sizing' section on their web site. I'm sure it's still there. -Larry "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]...

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> My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On compusa.com > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > >

A line filter probably won't do it. But a line _conditioner_ will as long as it has brownout protection included. I suspect we're talking about the same thing, though. -Larry "Tim Epstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ATbc9.3058$[email hidden]...

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> for what you need, that'll do the job. Just make sure only the PC, and not > your monitor is connected. Of course it means you won't see anything when > the power goes out, but that's not why you're buying it! > > Another option is to buy a power filter instead of UPS - they are normally > cheaper, but with what you've been quoted, a small UPS can't go wrong. > > Er.. I just noticed something - the special says battery backup, not

UPS??? > Be careful. If its a battery backup and not a UPS, then it normally runsis

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> bypass mode (no filtering). In that case, it'll take a quite a few > milliseconds to switch, and mightn't solve your problem. > > I suspect there may be a problem with your PC's power supply. They have > quite big capacitors in them, and should be able to handle minor surge or > disruption for a few hundred milliseconds or so. > > > > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]... > > My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On

compusa.com

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> > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > > bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > > > > > > > >

Where can i buy these things "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Regc9.32257$[email hidden]...

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> A line filter probably won't do it. > > But a line _conditioner_ will as long as it has brownout protection > included. > > I suspect we're talking about the same thing, though. > > -Larry > > "Tim Epstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ATbc9.3058$[email hidden]... > > for what you need, that'll do the job. Just make sure only the PC, and

not > > your monitor is connected. Of course it means you won't see anythingwhen > > the power goes out, but that's not why you're buying it! > > > > Another option is to buy a power filter instead of UPS - they arenormally

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> > cheaper, but with what you've been quoted, a small UPS can't go wrong. > > > > Er.. I just noticed something - the special says battery backup, not > UPS??? > > Be careful. If its a battery backup and not a UPS, then it normally runs > is > > bypass mode (no filtering). In that case, it'll take a quite a few > > milliseconds to switch, and mightn't solve your problem. > > > > I suspect there may be a problem with your PC's power supply. They have > > quite big capacitors in them, and should be able to handle minor surge

or

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> > disruption for a few hundred milliseconds or so. > > > > > > > > > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]... > > > My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > > > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On > compusa.com > > > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for

40

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> > > bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

In article <64bc9.14027$[email hidden]>, "frederickson" <[email hidden]> writes: >My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is >adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On compusa.com >there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 >bucks when you print the discount page out. It dies when the AC goes OFF??? I'd expect just the opposite... If it's a momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a system as you would if you had a prolonged outage. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <2dgc9.32255$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I tend to go a little overboard on UPS's, but I firmly believe that a well >fed computer is a happy computer :) > >My File Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. > >My Terminal Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. > >My main desktop has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. > >My G4 iMac has a BackUPS Pro 500 on it. > >My Network Equipment (Router, Cable Modem, Wireless Access Point) has it's >own BackUPS Pro 500. > >With the exception of the Laser Printer (you never put those on a UPS) and >the Klipsch ProMedia 5.1's, my entire house full of equipment can stay up >for about 45 minutes during a power failure. >

What the hell do you do for a living?? That's a LOT o' shit...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

But to correct the problems he describes, it must be a UPS that has Automatic Voltage Regulation. Some of the UPS models only kick in when the voltage drops below approx 85 volts AC (US models) and what he is describing may not be corrected with those models. What you want in a UPS is one that conditions tha power full time to maintain the proper voltage, not just kick in when the power is gone. But those are still realitively cheap. I have a CyberPower 900AVR model which works really well for me. I believe it was only $129 about 3 years ago. Belkin also makes a very good model, I believe it is around the same price. http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=7 6&pcount=&Product_Id=21082&Section.Section_Path=%2FRoot%2FPowerProtection%2F UPSDesktopUsage%2F Glen Pittman "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <64bc9.14027$[email hidden]>,"frederickson" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > >adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. Oncompusa.com > >there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > >bucks when you print the discount page out. > > It dies when the AC goes OFF??? I'd expect just the opposite... If it'sa > momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a system as you would ifyou had

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> a prolonged outage. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote... > > <snip> > It dies when the AC goes OFF??? I'd expect just the opposite... > If it's a momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a > system as you would if you had a prolonged outage. It's not a power loss issue (that would reset the entire PC)... the AC is an inductive load on the mains and, as such, creates "spikes" on same when it's turned off. These transients apparently travel across the DSL modem's power supply and trip up the electronics inside. See also http://www.intetron.com/technobabble.htm That said, indeed seeing as this is not about surviving an outage per se, he doesn't need an "oversized" system. He does need a "true" UPS, not a standby/bypass model though. Jan. =---

They still do and it is very helpful. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Bdgc9.32256$[email hidden]...

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> Oh, btw... APC used to have a UPS 'Sizing' section on their web site. I'm > sure it's still there. > > -Larry > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]... > > My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On

compusa.com

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> > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > > bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > > > > > > > >

In article <2dgc9.32255$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > As big as you can afford. > > Watch MicroCenter's circulars (if there is a store near you). Every now and > then, they get a little crazy and put the APC BackUPS Pro 1100 on sale for > $149 out the door. It's a $350+ UPS. Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my ancient 400. I found out the hard way that: 1: It's never truly off. It's always charging the battery. 2: When it starts charging, some circuitry would 'chirp'. It was not the little piezo speaker, as I actually REMOVED it and it still chirped! Too bad, as I bought it because it has true sine-wave output. That made it safe to run non-computer equipment. I ended up returning it and just buying a new battery for the old one. Just be aware that UPS's are NOT rated in watts, but in amp-hours (AH). I think APC (www.apcc.com) has a form you can fill out to get a rough idea of what size you need. I'm partial to APC because they work reliably. At work, every non-APC UPS we've bought has had problems. The only minor problem with the APC's at work is that some have a 'PnP' version of their connection cable (part number ends in 95A). Most of their software is designed for the regular cable (ends in 102?). When the software starts up and is configured for the wrong cable, the front light goes off. When the UPS tries to go on battery, it shuts down instead! Win2K's built-in UPS only works properly with the regular cable. -- If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!! http://home.att.net/~andyross

In article <jQoc9.97997$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> "EldredP" wrote... > > > <snip> > > It dies when the AC goes OFF??? I'd expect just the opposite... > > If it's a momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a > > system as you would if you had a prolonged outage. > > It's not a power loss issue (that would reset the entire PC)... the AC is an > inductive load on the mains and, as such, creates "spikes" on same when it's > turned off. These transients apparently travel across the DSL modem's power > supply and trip up the electronics inside. > > See also http://www.intetron.com/technobabble.htm > > That said, indeed seeing as this is not about surviving an outage per se, he > doesn't need an "oversized" system. He does need a "true" UPS, not a > standby/bypass model though.

A good UPS, even a standby one, should have filtering and surge protection built-in. Some of the APC's have a sensitivity button on the back. Different level set at what point it will switch to battery. At it's most sensitive, even a half-wave missing will cause a switchover. -- If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!! http://home.att.net/~andyross

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my ancient > 400. OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET, not a Pro 700. -- If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!! http://home.att.net/~andyross

Why spend $100+ for something when all that is required is a $10 filter? But even worse, everyone has just assumed a noise impulse has compromised an xDSL modem power supply. But that power supply already has that filtering. More likely, noise is being induced on the phone wire. For example, is his phone wire twisted pair? Most older phone lines are not twisted pair and therefore a excellent receptors of noise on adjacent wires. That phone line bundled with wire to power air conditioner and fan will carry noise impulses into the xDSL modem. A $100+ UPS would do nothing to solve this problem. What is the phone wire? Where is that phone wire (and other household phone wires) run? Then there is the question of how the xDSL modem connects to AC. Does it use the third prong safety ground or is it just an two wire connection. If it is a three wire power plug, then poor connection on the household safety ground system would result in another incoming noise path into the xDSL modem. Again, the $100+ UPS would not address this problem either. Before seeking expensive solutions, maybe first learn the reason for that problem? All this talk of $100+ UPSes for a $10 filter sounds like everyone has too much money to burn. Andrew Rossmann wrote:

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> > In article <jQoc9.97997$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > "EldredP" wrote... > > > > <snip> > > > It dies when the AC goes OFF??? I'd expect just the opposite... > > > If it's a momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a > > > system as you would if you had a prolonged outage. > > > > It's not a power loss issue (that would reset the entire PC)... the AC is an > > inductive load on the mains and, as such, creates "spikes" on same when it's > > turned off. These transients apparently travel across the DSL modem's power > > supply and trip up the electronics inside. > > > > See also http://www.intetron.com/technobabble.htm > > > > That said, indeed seeing as this is not about surviving an outage per se, he > > doesn't need an "oversized" system. He does need a "true" UPS, not a > > standby/bypass model though. > > A good UPS, even a standby one, should have filtering and surge > protection built-in. Some of the APC's have a sensitivity button on the > back. Different level set at what point it will switch to battery. At it's > most sensitive, even a half-wave missing will cause a switchover.

The phone wire hooked up to the DSL modem runs right by the power cord for the ceiling fan(which is in some plastic pipe attached to the wall and ceiling) and a bunch of outlets. The DSL modem itself is only powered by the USB bus. Usually the modem dies by itself but occasionally the other USB devices die too, although i dont think that has happened recently. This has happened in 2 different apartments in the same complex, they both have the same layout. I tried running the phone line through the surge protector but it doesnt work with the DSL signal. What kind of filter would I use for the DSL line and where could i get it? "w_tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why spend $100+ for something when all that is required is a > $10 filter? But even worse, everyone has just assumed a > noise impulse has compromised an xDSL modem power supply. But > that power supply already has that filtering. More likely, > noise is being induced on the phone wire. For example, is his > phone wire twisted pair? Most older phone lines are not > twisted pair and therefore a excellent receptors of noise on > adjacent wires. That phone line bundled with wire to power > air conditioner and fan will carry noise impulses into the > xDSL modem. A $100+ UPS would do nothing to solve this > problem. What is the phone wire? Where is that phone wire > (and other household phone wires) run? > > Then there is the question of how the xDSL modem connects to > AC. Does it use the third prong safety ground or is it just > an two wire connection. If it is a three wire power plug, > then poor connection on the household safety ground system > would result in another incoming noise path into the xDSL > modem. Again, the $100+ UPS would not address this problem > either. > > Before seeking expensive solutions, maybe first learn the > reason for that problem? All this talk of $100+ UPSes for a > $10 filter sounds like everyone has too much money to burn.

.

"frederickson" wrote...

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> The phone wire hooked up to the DSL modem runs right by the > power cord for the ceiling fan(which is in some plastic pipe > attached to the wall and ceiling) and a bunch of outlets. > The DSL modem itself is only powered by the USB bus. Usually > the modem dies by itself but occasionally the other USB > devices die too, although i dont think that has happened > recently. This has happened in 2 different apartments in the > same complex, they both have the same layout. I tried running > the phone line through the surge protector but it doesnt work > with the DSL signal. What kind of filter would I use for the > DSL line and where could i get it?

W_Tom is right... wrong assumption. Ok, scrap the UPS idea for now, as that might not help (much). What you describe is a disasterous layout in terms of Electro Magnetic Disturbance on your phone line. Ok, quick test (assuming this DSL stuff works the same as ADSL over here): plug the DSL connection into a phone instead of your DSL modem, pick it up and cycle the power on the AC a couple times while listening to the dial tone/DSL hiss. If you hear sharp clicks in unison with the switching you have a problem. Possibly the only option to aleviate this problem, if both ends of the connection are accessible, is to bypass the modem phoneline connection with a lenght of twisted pair wire having the right connectors at each end. Jan. =---

> Possibly the only option to aleviate this problem, if both ends of the > connection are accessible, is to bypass the modem phoneline connectionwith > a lenght of twisted pair wire having the right connectors at each end. > > Jan. > =--- Where would i get that? Also, the same thing happens to the modem whenever there is any lightning bolt within i'd guess a mile or so. Would this twisted pair wire do anything to prevent that? I'm guessing you just mean replacing the regular phone wire with this wire you are talking about?

"frederickson" wrote... > > <snip> > Where would i get that? Also, the same thing happens to the > modem whenever there is any lightning bolt within i'd guess > a mile or so. Would this twisted pair wire do anything to > prevent that? I'm guessing you just mean replacing the > regular phone wire with this wire you are talking about? Over here this wire is sold at elektricians (who stock installation materials) and electonics shops. In a pinch I guess you could also use one pair in a lenght of UTP patch cable (computer hardware). The only real problem I see is the commonly used RJ11 connectors require special tooling to fit them to the wire. The twisted pair helps in both situations because a disturbance(*) will cause equal and opposite currents to flow in each conductor, i.e. it cancels itself out. However, to be on the safe side, I suggest you re-route the connection through the room in order to stay away from mains wires. Jan. =--- (*): The disturbance is the same in both occasions, a sharp change in the local electro magnetic field due to a peak current. Seeing as lightning is a lot more powerfull than an AC unit, it's effect is detected over greater distance, that's all. Same principle as picking up distant lightning bolts on your car radio.

In article <[email hidden]>, Andrew Rossmann <[email hidden]> writes: > I'm partial to APC because they work reliably. At work, every non-APC >UPS we've bought has had problems. At work, every smaller APC UPS we've bought has had problems... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

IT Services. What can I say :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <2dgc9.32255$[email hidden]>, "Larry" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I tend to go a little overboard on UPS's, but I firmly believe that awell

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> >fed computer is a happy computer :) > > > >My File Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. > > > >My Terminal Server has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. > > > >My main desktop has a BackUPS Pro 1100 on it. > > > >My G4 iMac has a BackUPS Pro 500 on it. > > > >My Network Equipment (Router, Cable Modem, Wireless Access Point) has

it's > >own BackUPS Pro 500. > > > >With the exception of the Laser Printer (you never put those on a UPS)and

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> >the Klipsch ProMedia 5.1's, my entire house full of equipment can stay up > >for about 45 minutes during a power failure. > > > > What the hell do you do for a living?? That's a LOT o' shit...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Any computer superstore. The heaviest duty Line-Conditioner I know of is the APC 1250. It's heavy enough for Laser Printers, but is not cheap. Howeverr, if you don't have a UPS, I suggest you go that route. I prefer the BackUPS Pro or SmartUPS Series because they are Line-Interactive. The standard BackUPS are not. Line Interactive means that it can correct brown-outs by applying power from the battery _without_ transferring over to full-on-battery. This helps the batter life and UPS life. Quiet considerably from what I understand. I'd also choose one with user-replaceable batteries. I think just about all of them are these days (APC at least) except for the really cheap one's. -Larry "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aYhc9.18510$[email hidden]...

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> Where can i buy these things > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Regc9.32257$[email hidden]... > > A line filter probably won't do it. > > > > But a line _conditioner_ will as long as it has brownout protection > > included. > > > > I suspect we're talking about the same thing, though. > > > > -Larry > > > > "Tim Epstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ATbc9.3058$[email hidden]... > > > for what you need, that'll do the job. Just make sure only the PC, and > not > > > your monitor is connected. Of course it means you won't see anything > when > > > the power goes out, but that's not why you're buying it! > > > > > > Another option is to buy a power filter instead of UPS - they are > normally > > > cheaper, but with what you've been quoted, a small UPS can't go wrong. > > > > > > Er.. I just noticed something - the special says battery backup, not > > UPS??? > > > Be careful. If its a battery backup and not a UPS, then it normally

runs > > is > > > bypass mode (no filtering). In that case, it'll take a quite a few > > > milliseconds to switch, and mightn't solve your problem. > > > > > > I suspect there may be a problem with your PC's power supply. Theyhave

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> > > quite big capacitors in them, and should be able to handle minor surge > or > > > disruption for a few hundred milliseconds or so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:64bc9.14027$[email hidden]... > > > > My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > > > > adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On > > compusa.com > > > > there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for > 40 > > > > bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

For true Sine-Wave output you have to buy the more expensive SmartUPS series. Most less-expensive (though good) UPS's use a Modified Square Wave output. This is fine for anything EXCEPT lighting and A/C rotational devices, such as fans. But most people I know don't have A/C motors or lighting connected to their UPS's :) The SmartUPS and BackUPS Pro series are Line-Interactive. The BackUPS line is not. I consider the Line-Interactive feature a must. -Larry "Andrew Rossmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <2dgc9.32255$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > As big as you can afford. > > > > Watch MicroCenter's circulars (if there is a store near you). Every nowand > > then, they get a little crazy and put the APC BackUPS Pro 1100 on salefor

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> > $149 out the door. It's a $350+ UPS. > > Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my ancient > 400. I found out the hard way that: > 1: It's never truly off. It's always charging the battery. > 2: When it starts charging, some circuitry would 'chirp'. It was not the > little piezo speaker, as I actually REMOVED it and it still chirped! > > Too bad, as I bought it because it has true sine-wave output. That made > it safe to run non-computer equipment. I ended up returning it and just > buying a new battery for the old one. > > Just be aware that UPS's are NOT rated in watts, but in amp-hours (AH). > I think APC (www.apcc.com) has a form you can fill out to get a rough idea > of what size you need. > > I'm partial to APC because they work reliably. At work, every non-APC > UPS we've bought has had problems. The only minor problem with the APC's > at work is that some have a 'PnP' version of their connection cable (part > number ends in 95A). Most of their software is designed for the regular > cable (ends in 102?). When the software starts up and is configured for > the wrong cable, the front light goes off. When the UPS tries to go on > battery, it shuts down instead! Win2K's built-in UPS only works properly > with the regular cable. > > -- > If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! > All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the > law!! > http://home.att.net/~andyross

Um, All SmartUPS series output True SineWave outputs... Unless they changed something since I sold these several years ago... -Larry "Andrew Rossmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other > > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace myancient

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> > 400. > > OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET, not a > Pro 700. > > -- > If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! > All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the > law!! > http://home.att.net/~andyross

Because EVERYONE should have a UPS anyway. And a filter will not help line drops. It only filters unwanted transients from the line. He has to have either full Line Conditioning (i.e. APC LN-1250) or a UPS (preferably with Line Interactive capabilities). Since the good Line Conditioners, such as the LN-1250 are quite expensive, he should go ahead and get a UPS. Line Conditioners are mainly for use with Laser Printers and other high-current devices that cannot be placed on UPS's. -Larry "w_tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why spend $100+ for something when all that is required is a > $10 filter? But even worse, everyone has just assumed a > noise impulse has compromised an xDSL modem power supply. But > that power supply already has that filtering. More likely, > noise is being induced on the phone wire. For example, is his > phone wire twisted pair? Most older phone lines are not > twisted pair and therefore a excellent receptors of noise on > adjacent wires. That phone line bundled with wire to power > air conditioner and fan will carry noise impulses into the > xDSL modem. A $100+ UPS would do nothing to solve this > problem. What is the phone wire? Where is that phone wire > (and other household phone wires) run? > > Then there is the question of how the xDSL modem connects to > AC. Does it use the third prong safety ground or is it just > an two wire connection. If it is a three wire power plug, > then poor connection on the household safety ground system > would result in another incoming noise path into the xDSL > modem. Again, the $100+ UPS would not address this problem > either. > > Before seeking expensive solutions, maybe first learn the > reason for that problem? All this talk of $100+ UPSes for a > $10 filter sounds like everyone has too much money to burn. > > Andrew Rossmann wrote: > > > > In article <jQoc9.97997$[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > "EldredP" wrote... > > > > > <snip> > > > > It dies when the AC goes OFF??? I'd expect just the opposite... > > > > If it's a momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a > > > > system as you would if you had a prolonged outage. > > > > > > It's not a power loss issue (that would reset the entire PC)... the AC

is an > > > inductive load on the mains and, as such, creates "spikes" on samewhen it's > > > turned off. These transients apparently travel across the DSL modem'spower > > > supply and trip up the electronics inside. > > > > > > See also http://www.intetron.com/technobabble.htm > > > > > > That said, indeed seeing as this is not about surviving an outage perse, he > > > doesn't need an "oversized" system. He does need a "true" UPS, not a > > > standby/bypass model though. > > > > A good UPS, even a standby one, should have filtering and surge > > protection built-in. Some of the APC's have a sensitivity button on the > > back. Different level set at what point it will switch to battery. Atit's > > most sensitive, even a half-wave missing will cause a switchover.

AVR is also known as Line-Interactive by some manufacturers. I believe APC uses both terms sometimes. -Larry "Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > But to correct the problems he describes, it must be a UPS that has > Automatic Voltage Regulation. Some of the UPS models only kick in whenthe > voltage drops below approx 85 volts AC (US models) and what he isdescribing > may not be corrected with those models. What you want in a UPS is onethat > conditions tha power full time to maintain the proper voltage, not justkick

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> in when the power is gone. > > But those are still realitively cheap. I have a CyberPower 900AVR model > which works really well for me. I believe it was only $129 about 3 years > ago. Belkin also makes a very good model, I believe it is around the same > price. > >

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=7 >6&pcount=&Product_Id=21082&Section.Section_Path=%2FRoot%2FPowerProtection%2F

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> UPSDesktopUsage%2F > > > Glen Pittman > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <64bc9.14027$[email hidden]>, > "frederickson" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >My DSL dies whenever my air conditioner shuts off or ceiling fan is > > >adjusted... jan said a UPS should keep that from happening. On > compusa.com > > >there is a special for a APC Back-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup, USB for 40 > > >bucks when you print the discount page out. > > > > It dies when the AC goes OFF??? I'd expect just the opposite... If

it's

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> a > > momentary power loss, you don't need as robust a system as you would if > you had > > a prolonged outage. > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:+8.03 > > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

I agree, if the problem is on the DSL line, none of the Power devices described will help UNLESS they have a port for the DSL Line to filter it as well. I think some of the newer one's do. -Larry "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:vMrc9.98248$[email hidden]...

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> "frederickson" wrote... > > The phone wire hooked up to the DSL modem runs right by the > > power cord for the ceiling fan(which is in some plastic pipe > > attached to the wall and ceiling) and a bunch of outlets. > > The DSL modem itself is only powered by the USB bus. Usually > > the modem dies by itself but occasionally the other USB > > devices die too, although i dont think that has happened > > recently. This has happened in 2 different apartments in the > > same complex, they both have the same layout. I tried running > > the phone line through the surge protector but it doesnt work > > with the DSL signal. What kind of filter would I use for the > > DSL line and where could i get it? > > W_Tom is right... wrong assumption. Ok, scrap the UPS idea for now, as

that > might not help (much). > > What you describe is a disasterous layout in terms of Electro Magnetic > Disturbance on your phone line. Ok, quick test (assuming this DSL stuff > works the same as ADSL over here): plug the DSL connection into a phone > instead of your DSL modem, pick it up and cycle the power on the AC acouple > times while listening to the dial tone/DSL hiss. If you hear sharp clicksin > unison with the switching you have a problem. > > Possibly the only option to aleviate this problem, if both ends of the > connection are accessible, is to bypass the modem phoneline connectionwith > a lenght of twisted pair wire having the right connectors at each end. > > Jan. > =--- > >

"True SineWave" is a sales label. However what was the THD number in the specs. Some 'so called' sine wave UPSes are only closer to a sine wave than their other products because it outputs less harmonics - yet still too high to be a sine wave. What were the THD numbers - or did they make that spec hard to find? Larry wrote:

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> > Um, All SmartUPS series output True SineWave outputs... > > Unless they changed something since I sold these several years ago... > > -Larry > > "Andrew Rossmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or other > > > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my > ancient > > > 400. > > > > OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET, not a > > Pro 700. > > > > -- > > If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! > > All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the > > law!! > > http://home.att.net/~andyross

None of the devices are going to help even if "they have a port for the DSL Line to filter it as well." What filter? DSL is radio waves. If he gets a filter, then he does not get DSL? The power devices hype a surge protector - not a phone line filter. But a surge protector without the short connection to central earth ground does not provide effective protection. Short because destructive surges are radio frequency. But moreso, the telco traditionally installs effective surge protection on the phone line - free - and less than 10 feet to earth ground. Just another reason why those UPS or power conditioner phone line protectors are nonsense. A xDSL modem affected by AC line noise is defective by design. However even the best xDSL modems cannot do anything to clean up bad wiring. Just another reason why that xDSL phone line should be, minimally, UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair) also known as Cat3, Cat5, or Cat6 wire. Wire that is even sold in Home Depot and Lowes. Larry wrote: > > I agree, if the problem is on the DSL line, none of the Power devices > described will help UNLESS they have a port for the DSL Line to filter > it as well. I think some of the newer one's do. > > -Larry

Ask APC, not me :) -Larry "w_tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "True SineWave" is a sales label. However what was the THD > number in the specs. Some 'so called' sine wave UPSes are > only closer to a sine wave than their other products because > it outputs less harmonics - yet still too high to be a sine > wave. What were the THD numbers - or did they make that spec > hard to find? > > > Larry wrote: > > > > Um, All SmartUPS series output True SineWave outputs... > > > > Unless they changed something since I sold these several years ago... > > > > -Larry > > > > "Andrew Rossmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > > [email hidden] says... > > > > Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or

other > > > > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my > > ancient > > > > 400. > > > > > > OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET, nota

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> > > Pro 700. > > > > > > -- > > > If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! > > > All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the > > > law!! > > > http://home.att.net/~andyross

I don't believe APC made a claim here that their UPS outputs a sine wave. If one says a UPS outputs a sine wave, then a basic number demonstrates same. A THD number is not difficult to post. Unfortunately, when it comes to plug-in UPSes, the web is full of claims from those who have never read specifications - and from manufacturers that imply one thing while their specifications say something quite different. All we require is a basic specification number that says it actually is a sine wave output. THD would do quite nicely. The point is not to embarrass you, but to expand upon what Andy Rossmann said: >>> Be a bit careful with some UPS's ...Too many urban myths are promoted when too many half truths are told by the manufacturer. Is that really a since wave UPS - or just a better sine wave than their cheaper model? For example, the APC SmartUPS 700 claims a sine wave output. But I recall reading elsewhere a THD of something around 10% on the third harmonic. That's too dirty to be a sine wave. Why not at least provide some numbers especially since no UPS outputs a pure sine wave? But they don't. Instead they encourage wild speculation by only telling half truths and by hiding the numbers. Is it really a sine wave, or just the closest to a sine wave in their product line? Larry wrote:

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> > Ask APC, not me :) > > -Larry > > "w_tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > "True SineWave" is a sales label. However what was the THD > > number in the specs. Some 'so called' sine wave UPSes are > > only closer to a sine wave than their other products because > > it outputs less harmonics - yet still too high to be a sine > > wave. What were the THD numbers - or did they make that spec > > hard to find? > > > > > > Larry wrote: > > > > > > Um, All SmartUPS series output True SineWave outputs... > > > > > > Unless they changed something since I sold these several years ago... > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > "Andrew Rossmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > > > [email hidden] says... > > > > > Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or > other > > > > > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replace my > > > ancient > > > > > 400. > > > > > > > > OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET, not > > > > a Pro 700.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> I don't believe APC made a claim here that their UPS outputs > a sine wave. If one says a UPS outputs a sine wave, then a > basic number demonstrates same. A THD number is not difficult > to post. Unfortunately, when it comes to plug-in UPSes, the > web is full of claims from those who have never read > specifications - and from manufacturers that imply one thing > while their specifications say something quite different. All > we require is a basic specification number that says it > actually is a sine wave output. THD would do quite nicely.

All I can say is what APC says. For their SmartUPS, if you look at the specs page, on the output/input/surge tab, it says the waveform is 'SineWave'. The standard BackUps says 'Stepped approximation to a sinewave.' I guess it depends on just how close to a sinewave you want. I've run a fan on both a plain BackUPS and a SmartUPS. With the BackUPS, it noticeably buzzes. With the SmartUPS, it ran normally. I've read or heard that some UPS's don't even try for a sinewave. They use some form of PWM that the switching supply in a computer will treat as if it was a sinewave. If you believe some of the claims of high-end-audio UPS's/filters, you will get genuine, clean sinewaves, at a very steep cost. Anybody have a 'scope and want to check what the output of various UPS's looks like?? -- If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!! http://home.att.net/~andyross

You're buying a UPS. Not a Stereo System. -Larry "w_tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I don't believe APC made a claim here that their UPS outputs > a sine wave. If one says a UPS outputs a sine wave, then a > basic number demonstrates same. A THD number is not difficult > to post. Unfortunately, when it comes to plug-in UPSes, the > web is full of claims from those who have never read > specifications - and from manufacturers that imply one thing > while their specifications say something quite different. All > we require is a basic specification number that says it > actually is a sine wave output. THD would do quite nicely. > > The point is not to embarrass you, but to expand upon what > Andy Rossmann said: > >>> Be a bit careful with some UPS's ... > Too many urban myths are promoted when too many half truths > are told by the manufacturer. Is that really a since wave UPS > - or just a better sine wave than their cheaper model? > > For example, the APC SmartUPS 700 claims a sine wave > output. But I recall reading elsewhere a THD of something > around 10% on the third harmonic. That's too dirty to be a > sine wave. Why not at least provide some numbers especially > since no UPS outputs a pure sine wave? But they don't. > Instead they encourage wild speculation by only telling half > truths and by hiding the numbers. Is it really a sine wave, > or just the closest to a sine wave in their product line? > > Larry wrote: > > > > Ask APC, not me :) > > > > -Larry > > > > "w_tom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

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> > > "True SineWave" is a sales label. However what was the THD > > > number in the specs. Some 'so called' sine wave UPSes are > > > only closer to a sine wave than their other products because > > > it outputs less harmonics - yet still too high to be a sine > > > wave. What were the THD numbers - or did they make that spec > > > hard to find? > > > > > > > > > Larry wrote: > > > > > > > > Um, All SmartUPS series output True SineWave outputs... > > > > > > > > Unless they changed something since I sold these several years

ago... > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "Andrew Rossmann" <[email hidden]> wrote inmessage > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > > > > [email hidden] says... > > > > > > Be a bit careful with some UPS's if it will be in a bedroom or > > other > > > > > > quiet place. I bought an APC Pro700 a few months ago to replacemy > > > > ancient > > > > > > 400. > > > > > > > > > > OOPS. I just checked my records, and it was a Smart UPS 700NET,not > > > > > a Pro 700.

Correct. That's what it was when I sold the line, and that's what it says now. If the gent wants to shop by THD, then he's more than welcome to :) -Larry "Andrew Rossmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > All I can say is what APC says. For their SmartUPS, if you look at the > specs page, on the output/input/surge tab, it says the waveform is > 'SineWave'. The standard BackUps says 'Stepped approximation to a > sinewave.' > > I guess it depends on just how close to a sinewave you want. I've run a > fan on both a plain BackUPS and a SmartUPS. With the BackUPS, it > noticeably buzzes. With the SmartUPS, it ran normally. > > I've read or heard that some UPS's don't even try for a sinewave. They > use some form of PWM that the switching supply in a computer will treat as > if it was a sinewave. > > If you believe some of the claims of high-end-audio UPS's/filters, you > will get genuine, clean sinewaves, at a very steep cost. > > Anybody have a 'scope and want to check what the output of various UPS's > looks like?? > > -- > If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! > All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the > law!! > http://home.att.net/~andyross

In article <lALc9.34780$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes: >IT Services. > >What can I say :) I'm in IT too, but I don't have all that crap at home. Nevermind the fact that I couldn't AFFORD it...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>IT Services. >What can I say :) I'm in IT too, but I don't have all that ***at home. Nevermind the fact that I couldn't AFFORD it...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+8.03 N2002 Rank:+20.124 Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It helps when I work from home, which I do one day a week. Plus, I'm a Geek who's been doing this for 22 years. What can I say :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <lALc9.34780$[email hidden]>, "Larry" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >IT Services. > > > >What can I say :) > > I'm in IT too, but I don't have all that crap at home. Nevermind the fact

that

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> I couldn't AFFORD it...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It helps when I work from home, which I do one day a week. Plus, I'm a Geek who's been doing this for 22 years. What can I say :) -Larry > >IT Services. > >What can I say :) > I'm in IT too, but I don't have all that ***at home. Nevermind the fact that

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> I couldn't AFFORD it...<g> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Also, I build all my own stuff, so the cost isn't as bad as it would seem. -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <lALc9.34780$[email hidden]>, "Larry" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >IT Services. > > > >What can I say :) > > I'm in IT too, but I don't have all that crap at home. Nevermind the fact

that

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> I couldn't AFFORD it...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Also, I build all my own stuff, so the cost isn't as bad as it would seem. -Larry > >IT Services. > >What can I say :) > I'm in IT too, but I don't have all that ***at home. Nevermind the fact that

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> I couldn't AFFORD it...<g> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+8.03 > N2002 Rank:+20.124 > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.