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+ADwAIQ--- Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:09:12 - Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:09:12 --+AD4APA-h1 class+AD0AIg-linkback+ACIAPgA8-a href+AD0AIg-https://rec-autos-simulators.net/+ACIAPg-rec.autos.simulators+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/h1+AD4-
+ADw-h2 class+AD0AIg-topic-title+ACIAPg-How do I detect the feel of my car?+ADw-/h2+AD4-
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+ADw-h3 class+AD0AIg-first+ACIAPgA8-a href+AD0AIgAj-p1+ACIAPg-How do I detect the feel of my car?+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/h3+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-author+ACIAPg-
+ADw-span class+AD0AIg-responsive-hide+ACIAPg-by +ADw-strong+AD4-Morgan V+ADw-/strong+AD4- +ACY-raquo+ADs- +ADw-/span+AD4-Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:00:00+ADw-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div class+AD0AIg-content+ACIAPg-I've been playing Viper Racing (intermediate and simulation modes) for several +ADw-br+AD4- months and NASCAR 99 for about a month (sim mode) as well as the demos for GPL, +ADw-br+AD4- Indy2, and SCGT. I understand the theory behind setting up the car. I've read +ADw-br+AD4- and re-read the manuals talking about tire pressure, spoiler and wing angles, +ADw-br+AD4- camber, toe-in, sway bars, etc... and how adjustments can make the car loose or +ADw-br+AD4- tight as well as, of course, slower or faster or just handle better in general. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4-Trouble is, after all this time I still can't tell the difference between one +ADw-br+AD4- setup and another. Either in Viper or N2 (I'm mostly playing N2 these days). +ADw-br+AD4- Mainly, I'm always hearing folks yabbing about their car is too loose or too +ADw-br+AD4- damned tight or whatever, yet I can never tell whether any of these problems +ADw-br+AD4- are present in my setup. I get into turn 1 (or 3) at Martinsville, I brake, the +ADw-br+AD4- car spins out coming out of turn 2 (or 4). Too loose? I don't know. Next time +ADw-br+AD4- around it handles fine. I go into turn three at Atlanta, I thought I let off +ADw-br+AD4- the gas correctly (I usually get good laps there), but the car's heading for +ADw-br+AD4- the wall even though the speed is only 165. Too tight or am I just trying to +ADw-br+AD4- get around it too fast? Duh... Hell if I know. I'm running a high line coming +ADw-br+AD4- off turn 2 at Bristol and the car hits the little dip where the banking changes +ADw-br+AD4- and starts wobbling and heading almost uncontrollably down to the apron. Too +ADw-br+AD4- loose? Next time around it's fine, next time after that I almost lose it again. +ADw-br+AD4- Hmmm... +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4-Do I need a force-feedback wheel to detect these things? Do I need a different +ADw-br+AD4- wheel in general? (I'm using a Logitech Formula non-FF which, at least in N2, +ADw-br+AD4- always seems too sensitive) How do you folks detect the +ACY-quot+ADs-feel+ACY-quot+ADs- from just visual +ADw-br+AD4- representation or is there something else here I'm missing? Or am I just a nut? +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4--- +ADw-br+AD4- -----------------------------------+---------------------------------- +ADw-br+AD4- Morgan Vincent W. +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADsAfA- morganvw at msn dot com +ADw-br+AD4- ICQ +ACM-: 18197225 +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADsAfA- http://www.racesimcentral.net/+ADw-br+AD4- -----------------------------------+---------------------------------- +ADw-br+AD4APA-/div+AD4-
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+ADw-div class+AD0AIg-avatar-container+ACIAPgA8-/div+AD4-Doug Schneide+ADw-/dt+AD4-
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+ADw-h3 class+AD0AIg-first+ACIAPgA8-a href+AD0AIgAj-p2+ACIAPg-How do I detect the feel of my car?+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/h3+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-author+ACIAPg-
+ADw-span class+AD0AIg-responsive-hide+ACIAPg-by +ADw-strong+AD4-Doug Schneide+ADw-/strong+AD4- +ACY-raquo+ADs- +ADw-/span+AD4-Fri, 17 Sep 1999 04:00:00+ADw-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div class+AD0AIg-content+ACIAPg-I think I know what you mean here, I've been there myself. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-I pissed around +ADw-br+AD4- randomly with N2 setups and generally came out of it with a car that was pretty +ADw-br+AD4- much undriveable. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-What I ended up doing was downloading a shitload of different +ADw-br+AD4- setups and trying them. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-After a LOT of hours of testing, I ended up with a few +ADw-br+AD4- that worked for me yet were different from each other in subtle ways. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Then I +ADw-br+AD4- looked more closely at each setup to find out what made the differences. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-THEN I +ADw-br+AD4- started tweaking my favourite, a minscule bit at a time, and running about 30-40 +ADw-br+AD4- laps after each change to see what difference the tweak made. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-It takes an +ADw-br+AD4- incredible amount of time to get a setup right. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-If you're not into spending lots +ADw-br+AD4- of hours on your favourite tracks, forget the whole thing and just keep downloading +ADw-br+AD4- setups until you find one you like. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4-As for the differences from one lap to the next, ie +ACY-quot+ADs-next time around it handles +ADw-br+AD4- fine+ACY-quot+ADs-, it sounds to me like you need to be more consistant. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-A foot or so to either +ADw-br+AD4- side of the ideal racing line or a few miles an hour difference in entry speed can +ADw-br+AD4- make a huge difference to how well you take a corner. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-All I can say is stick with +ADw-br+AD4- one setup at first. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-When you can do 20 laps in a row that are all within one +ADw-br+AD4- second of each other, then maybe start playing with setup. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Again, it takes a lot +ADw-br+AD4- of practice, but without basic consistancy no setup in the world will help you. +ADw-br+AD4- And as far as I know, EVERYONE has trouble with the bump at Bristol. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Hope this is +ADw-br+AD4- of some use to you. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- Zog +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-div class+AD0AIg-gQuote+ACIAPg-
+ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- I've been playing Viper Racing (intermediate and simulation modes) for several +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- months and NASCAR 99 for about a month (sim mode) as well as the demos for GPL, +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- Indy2, and SCGT. I understand the theory behind setting up the car. I've read +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- and re-read the manuals talking about tire pressure, spoiler and wing angles, +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- camber, toe-in, sway bars, etc... and how adjustments can make the car loose or +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- tight as well as, of course, slower or faster or just handle better in general. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADs- Trouble is, after all this time I still can't tell the difference between one +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- setup and another. Either in Viper or N2 (I'm mostly playing N2 these days). +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- Mainly, I'm always hearing folks yabbing about their car is too loose or too +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- damned tight or whatever, yet I can never tell whether any of these problems +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- are present in my setup. I get into turn 1 (or 3) at Martinsville, I brake, the +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- car spins out coming out of turn 2 (or 4). Too loose? I don't know. Next time +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- around it handles fine. I go into turn three at Atlanta, I thought I let off +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- the gas correctly (I usually get good laps there), but the car's heading for +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- the wall even though the speed is only 165. Too tight or am I just trying to +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- get around it too fast? Duh... Hell if I know. I'm running a high line coming +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- off turn 2 at Bristol and the car hits the little dip where the banking changes +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- and starts wobbling and heading almost uncontrollably down to the apron. Too +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- loose? Next time around it's fine, next time after that I almost lose it again. +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- Hmmm... +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADs- Do I need a force-feedback wheel to detect these things? Do I need a different +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- wheel in general? (I'm using a Logitech Formula non-FF which, at least in N2, +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- always seems too sensitive) How do you folks detect the +ACY-quot+ADs-feel+ACY-quot+ADs- from just visual +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- representation or is there something else here I'm missing? Or am I just a nut? +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADs- -- +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- -----------------------------------+---------------------------------- +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- Morgan Vincent W. +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADsAfA- morganvw at msn dot com +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- ICQ +ACM-: 18197225 +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADsAfA- http://members.xoom.com/morganv/ +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs- -----------------------------------+---------------------------------- +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-br+AD4APA-/div+AD4APA-/div+AD4-
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+ADw-h3 class+AD0AIg-first+ACIAPgA8-a href+AD0AIgAj-p3+ACIAPg-How do I detect the feel of my car?+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/h3+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-author+ACIAPg-
+ADw-span class+AD0AIg-responsive-hide+ACIAPg-by +ADw-strong+AD4-John Bodi+ADw-/strong+AD4- +ACY-raquo+ADs- +ADw-/span+AD4-Fri, 17 Sep 1999 04:00:00+ADw-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div class+AD0AIg-content+ACIAPg-EXCELLENT advice+ACE- +ACY-nbsp+ADs-This seems to work for me -- get consistent first, then +ADw-br+AD4- make small changes and analyze the effects in terms of lap time and +ADw-br+AD4- difficulty. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Some setups allow me to run flat-out, but I turn slow laps+ADs- +ADw-br+AD4- other setups I can run amazingly-fast laps, but they're so squirrelly that I +ADw-br+AD4- can't be consistent with them. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-I look for fast combinations that are +ADw-br+AD4- forgiving enough to give me enough control to race the AI consistently -- if +ADw-br+AD4- I can go fast, make passes, and avoid slow cars an accidents, then I've got +ADw-br+AD4- a good setup. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-I look for the same in GPL, Viper, etc. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4-It's a lot of work analyzing setups, but the good rule of thumb is to be +ADw-br+AD4- consistent, make changes, and analyze them for this criteria (speed versus +ADw-br+AD4- stability and ease of use), then find the balance that suits your driving +ADw-br+AD4- style. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4-My friends can't use my setups, and vice-versa, but we're pretty much all +ADw-br+AD4- equals given our own setups. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-It takes time to find what works for you, but +ADw-br+AD4- it's worth the effort in the end. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4--- JB +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4APA-div class+AD0AIg-gQuote+ACIAPg-
+ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-I think I know what you mean here, I've been there myself. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-I pissed around +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-randomly with N2 setups and generally came out of it with a car that was +ADw-br+AD4- pretty +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-much undriveable. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-What I ended up doing was downloading a shitload of +ADw-br+AD4- different +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-setups and trying them. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-After a LOT of hours of testing, I ended up with a +ADw-br+AD4- few +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-that worked for me yet were different from each other in subtle ways. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Then +ADw-br+AD4- I +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-looked more closely at each setup to find out what made the differences. +ADw-br+AD4- THEN I +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-started tweaking my favourite, a minscule bit at a time, and running about +ADw-br+AD4- 30-40 +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-laps after each change to see what difference the tweak made. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-It takes an +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-incredible amount of time to get a setup right. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-If you're not into +ADw-br+AD4- spending lots +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-of hours on your favourite tracks, forget the whole thing and just keep +ADw-br+AD4- downloading +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-setups until you find one you like. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADs-As for the differences from one lap to the next, ie +ACY-quot+ADs-next time around it +ADw-br+AD4- handles +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-fine+ACY-quot+ADs-, it sounds to me like you need to be more consistant. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-A foot or so +ADw-br+AD4- to either +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-side of the ideal racing line or a few miles an hour difference in entry +ADw-br+AD4- speed can +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-make a huge difference to how well you take a corner. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-All I can say is +ADw-br+AD4- stick with +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-one setup at first. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-When you can do 20 laps in a row that are all within +ADw-br+AD4- one +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-second of each other, then maybe start playing with setup. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Again, it takes +ADw-br+AD4- a lot +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-of practice, but without basic consistancy no setup in the world will help +ADw-br+AD4- you. +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-And as far as I know, EVERYONE has trouble with the bump at Bristol. +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Hope +ADw-br+AD4- this is +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADs-of some use to you. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs-Zog +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4-
+ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- I've been playing Viper Racing (intermediate and simulation modes) for +ADw-br+AD4- several +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- months and NASCAR 99 for about a month (sim mode) as well as the demos +ADw-br+AD4- for GPL, +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- Indy2, and SCGT. I understand the theory behind setting up the car. I've +ADw-br+AD4- read +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- and re-read the manuals talking about tire pressure, spoiler and wing +ADw-br+AD4- angles, +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- camber, toe-in, sway bars, etc... and how adjustments can make the car +ADw-br+AD4- loose or +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- tight as well as, of course, slower or faster or just handle better in +ADw-br+AD4- general. +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- Trouble is, after all this time I still can't tell the difference between +ADw-br+AD4- one +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- setup and another. Either in Viper or N2 (I'm mostly playing N2 these +ADw-br+AD4- days). +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- Mainly, I'm always hearing folks yabbing about their car is too loose or +ADw-br+AD4- too +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- damned tight or whatever, yet I can never tell whether any of these +ADw-br+AD4- problems +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- are present in my setup. I get into turn 1 (or 3) at Martinsville, I +ADw-br+AD4- brake, the +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- car spins out coming out of turn 2 (or 4). Too loose? I don't know. Next +ADw-br+AD4- time +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- around it handles fine. I go into turn three at Atlanta, I thought I let +ADw-br+AD4- off +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- the gas correctly (I usually get good laps there), but the car's heading +ADw-br+AD4- for +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- the wall even though the speed is only 165. Too tight or am I just trying +ADw-br+AD4- to +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- get around it too fast? Duh... Hell if I know. I'm running a high line +ADw-br+AD4- coming +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- off turn 2 at Bristol and the car hits the little dip where the banking +ADw-br+AD4- changes +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- and starts wobbling and heading almost uncontrollably down to the apron. +ADw-br+AD4- Too +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- loose? Next time around it's fine, next time after that I almost lose it +ADw-br+AD4- again. +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- Hmmm... +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- Do I need a force-feedback wheel to detect these things? Do I need a +ADw-br+AD4- different +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- wheel in general? (I'm using a Logitech Formula non-FF which, at least in +ADw-br+AD4- N2, +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- always seems too sensitive) How do you folks detect the +ACY-quot+ADs-feel+ACY-quot+ADs- from just +ADw-br+AD4- visual +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- representation or is there something else here I'm missing? Or am I just +ADw-br+AD4- a nut? +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-p+AD4AJg-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- -- +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- -----------------------------------+---------------------------------- +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- Morgan Vincent W. +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADsAfA- morganvw at msn dot com +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- ICQ +ACM-: 18197225 +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADsAfA- http://members.xoom.com/morganv/ +ADw-br+AD4- +ACY-gt+ADsAJg-gt+ADs- -----------------------------------+---------------------------------- +ADw-br+AD4- +ADw-br+AD4APA-/div+AD4APA-/div+AD4-
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+ADw-p+AD4-1. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://www.racesimcentral.net/6+AF8-9dd0151aeb9aaedb+AF8-1.htm+ACIAPg-sony car audio: how do you feel about sony car audio system?+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p+AD4-2. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://www.racesimcentral.net/1+AF8-7787ca99625367d7+AF8-1.htm+ACIAPg-Any such thing as a proximity detecting car alarm?+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p+AD4-3. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://www.racesimcentral.net/3+AF8-865c3913b8b38f76+AF8-1.htm+ACIAPg-warped rotor feel - anybody had warped drum feel ?+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p+AD4-4. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://www.racesimcentral.net/9+AF8-658d6e0583c30521+AF8-1.htm+ACIAPgAm-quot+ADs- I can feel the excitement, I can feel the anticipation+ACY-quot+ADsAPA-/a+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p+AD4-5. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://www.racesimcentral.net/1+AF8-9f8d165e68bad611+AF8-1.htm+ACIAPg-Manual Transmission Feel in European Cars+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p+AD4-6. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://www.racesimcentral.net/1+AF8-82fefb758f242e3a+AF8-1.htm+ACIAPg-Touch/Feel warning options coming to cars...+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
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+ADw-p+AD4-8. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://www.racesimcentral.net/1+AF8-73637a860d8ea1e3+AF8-1.htm+ACIAPg-What aspect/s of your current car makes it feel cool to you and why ?+ADw-/a+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
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