rec.autos.simulators

Hi all,

 I upgraded my machine to 48MB, K6-200 and a Voodoo I (Diamond Monster
 4MB) in order to be able to give F1RS a try. After two weeks of playing,
 here are some points and thoughts I have about both games. I've been using
 the latest patch (1.09) in conjunction with the latest 3dfx/DirectX drivers
 available for my system.

In favour of F1RS:

   * Great graphics once you're alone on the track
   * weather (spray tails on the cars look great!)
   * genuine spins that one can recover from
   * View of the front wheels
   * doesn't turn into slide show when smoke is about
   * very aggressive AI driving, albeit slow lap times even in expert mode
   * ghost mode
   * Automatic saving of track records
   * F1-Mag season history feature
   * Great support from UbiSoft

Things I don't like about F1RS:
   * very slow menu system, even with a full install
   * reloading of setups required when changing tracks / game mode
   * replay unusable even with 1.09, and seldomly available
   * Race leader taking ages to lap other cars
   * slowdown at the start of the race makes it hard to react
   * no restart of Grand Prix races allowed
   * not-so-beautiful cars compared to gp2 (matter of taste, though)
   * win95 only (takes hours to load and get into the game)
   * track has to be reloaded even when entering the garage
   * game freezes momentarily when accessing hd for sounds  

Pros for GP2:
   * very fast startup (dos game)
   * quick menu navigation
   * great tools available on the net (gp2edit, carsets)
   * very good impression of speed while driving
   * great sound effects
   * decent framerates
   * quick, usable 15second replay always available
   * competitive AI using the editors
   * richer setup options than f1rs

Cons about GP2:
   * turns into slide show when smoke is visible
   * no weather
   * no realistic tyre wear
   * canned spins, canned breakdowns
   * wheels not visible
   * serial / network play sucks
   * absolutely no support from Microprose

If F1RS was a bit faster and more usable, I'd dump GP2
today rather than tomorrow. Bottom line: for a quick race on some
circuit gp2 is the way to go IMHO, but gfx-wise nothing beats
f1rs. Too bad though that the first-corner slowdown makes it near
impossible to get a decent start without ending up in the gravel.

Cheers for now, and I'd like to hear your opinions and comments.

Uwe
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Please explain this, as I think you wouldn't want the same setup
for every track.

I have 80MB of ram and a PCI soundcard (AudioPCI) and the
slowdowns are GONE!

I disagree (matter of taste). GP2 is not even close to F1RS.

Disagree.

Takes maybe 5-10 seconds.

Only the first time and this effect is greatly reduced with more
RAM. In fact this is probably where the first lap slowdowns
come from.

There is equivelant tools for F1RS. Check www.f1racingsim.com.

F1RS is better.

F1RS is better.

F1RS is better.

F1RS is better.

F1RS is better.

Agreed :-)

Eliminating replays and getting more ram will certainly help. Also
the 3D sound patch on the AudioPCI gives fantastic situational
awareness. External car sounds in GP2??? I don't think so.

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

That's it.

Finally. Someone with their head screwed on straight. I was beginning to wonder if any of the participants of this argument had even driven GP2.  At about 200 hours in F1RS I'd have to say the handling is arcadish compared to GP2.

The ONLY things good about F1RS are the road surfaces, the ability to hear other cars, and the curbs. You put those in GP2 and F1RS is a Frisbee for the dog.

--

mark
"If you get to the point where you truly understand what the term 'controlled looseness' means, then, and only then, do you know what the term 'fast' means."

F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.

    I use my right to not agreeing with you regarding the realism of spins in F1RS
    vs GP2 :o).

I must start by saying that I am a GP2 fan - I race league and hotlap
and serial cable (which works perfectly).

I have only played an F1RS demo on a friends machine (my Cx166+ doesn't
like it!) and from what I have seen it looks pretty good.

However I would say that the one thing ALL driving games need above all
else is better AI.

When I played F1RS the computer cars ran OK (for AI) until I got to the
first Lesmos corner at Monza. Here I simply drove past them....

In GP2 an 'AI' car will get in your slipstream (which is overemphasised
anyway) and immediately pulls out. If you 'outpower' him he slips back
into the tow and stays there like an idiot. On the next lap the AI
should know that that won't work. This time he should wait until just
before the corner and then duck out and try to outbreak you.

Another problem here is that a 700 BHP car may pass a 780 BHP car - it
will get a tow, dive out and not have enough power, dive back in, regain
the tow and finaly dive out just in time to outbreak into the corner.
Now a 750 BHP car may not manage this. It will get a tow, pull out
earlier and almost get past, but then just as they approach the corner,
it will have to dive back in because it 'didn't have enough power'.

Pathetic!

Also when you overtake AI cars they should move to the inside of the
track to defend their place (as well as leaving braking to the last
minute).

And another thing!

Question:

Why at Spa on Ace level can I get from last to the top 6 without
touching another car at the start?

Answer:

Because the computer cars leave a nice long gap down the inside for me
to outbreak them... (20 of them)!

For gods sake programmers the 'I' in AI stands for INTELLIGENCE. NOT
following a line. NOT wimping out under braking. NOT getting stuck
behind cars which catch them out on the straights...

So please can we have a driving sim, which for the first time ever
provides a revolution in the genre - AI.

Maybe even one where Irvine and Schumacher co-operate to beat you in a
crucial race - well we can dream can't we!  
--
Michael C Wallace

Hi Micheal,

You are the first person that has made GP2 to work head-to-head "perfectly".

Now for comparision sake, I would call Papyrus serial head-to-head perfect.
You can play a P83 on 320x200 at 5fps against a P2/333 on 640x480
at 25fps and all works great (no lag on the P2 side).  Thats with 39
computer
cars on N2.

Please tell us how you are getting perfect results with GP2.
We all want to know.

Jason.

Nice post...

I suggest reserving judgement till you get a copy and try it out on all AI
levels.  But in honesty, I think most of your points hold.

Amen!

I've been racing at Pro level (2nd of 3 difficulty levels).  And yes, on that
particular turn, the AI cars are very slow to accelerate.  As background, in
F1RS, the cars get slowerr as you go to lower difficulty levels through slower
braking and accelerating.  Top speed remains the same.  This contrasts with
GP2 where top speed is reduced.  I prefer F1RS's approach.  Though not
perfect, it at least doesn't give you the easy out of flying by on the
straits.

It is possible that each course has one turn where the AI cars are
particularly slow.  Maybe it's just that I just tend to figure out one curve
making me particularly fast :-)  But I haven't really raced against "expert"
level yet to see if I lose that advantage there.

I've wondered about how strong the slipstream/draft effect is in actual F1.
Certainly it is much more strongly portrayed in GP2 than F1RS.  Also, in F1RS,
the consequences of getting in someones "dirty air" heading into a turn can be
disastrous.

I sit back and watch a fair number of expert level races in F1RS.  I
continually see cars try the same pass lap after lap.  Thus, I agree the AI
could use some work.  Also, the F1RS backmarker AI cars are loathe to let
leaders pass.  They also hold the line tenaciously against all but you.

In F1RS I gather?  I also see similar at Monza with GP2.  Yes, they need work.

Yes!

This I think is key!  Time after time I've seen "teamates" duel with each
other to each's detriment.  Is it that hard to have teamates not do this?  
After all, they aren't all Prost and Senna :-)

I believe this is the next major step for simracing. Forget fancy
graphics and animated pitstops for the moment, and imagine F1RS if the
AI cars were really clever (or stupid in some cases). Can you imagine
racing at Suzuka, and it's coming to the end of the race and right
behind you is Wurz or someone. Every lap at the chicane he shows you a
wheel to let you know he's behind, he locks up once or twice. Then, two
laps from the end he decides to slip inside where's there's really no
chance and blazes past with his tyres smoking. He gets sideways for a
moment but recovers, though not before slumping into the gravel. His
wheels spin, but he can't get back out and the race is yours, but it
wasn't without a fight.

What about cars that sell you a dummy a la Mansell on the straights, or
ones that try and overtake on the outside in the wet? Ones that can't
handle the pressure in front of you and lock up, run wide, whatever?
Backmarkers that get the hell outta your way? Team-mates working
together? Drivers changing pit strategy to cope with traffic?

I appreciate that the AI is the hardest part of a sim to get right, but
it's time we had some real competition.

--
Spudgun

1. You didn't prove your argument in any way. Just saying "it is
arcadish" isn't enough, or then someone might say "GP2 feels like
driving a shoe, and that's that" to keep your level of argumentation.

2. You have never driven F1, so how could you know which is more
realistic.

3. You can't even configure your newsreader right to insert a linefeed
after every 72 characters.

By the way, GP2 is the worst and most unrealistic driving game I have
ever seen. The spins and weather in Pole Position is more realistic
than in GP2. Only braindead monkeys would ever play GP2 and think it
is a sim. So there. :^P

.....

Let's not expect the impossible. What you guys are asking can probably not even
be done by some top-notch AI-researcher at MIT or JPL!! AI isn't "difficult",
it's x!%*$& to implement !! I guess it's hard enough already to avoid making
the CC look absolutely _stupid_ from time to time.

Human behaviour and computer algorythms.... Basically incompatible.

JoH
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Well... no. You have to have both of course. F1RS is a much better simulation of being in a race. But it is not a driving simulation. CPR is a driving simulation as well as GPL. F1RS is a racing simulation, as the box says. It's way fun and you'd better run out and get that PII 400 with V2 before August anyway. :-)

--

mark

F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.

    So does this mean I don't have to bother upgrading my 3D card to 4MB
    from 2MB just to play F1RS and just continue with GP2 which still has
    the best car physics of any sim out there?? Good.

Well... no. You have to have both of course. F1RS is a much better simulation of being in a race. But it is not a driving simulation. CPR is a driving simulation as well as GPL. F1RS is a racing simulation, as the box says. It's way fun and you'd better run out and get that PII 400 with V2 before August anyway. :-)

--

mark

F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.

    So does this mean I don't have to bother upgrading my 3D card to 4MB
    from 2MB just to play F1RS and just continue with GP2 which still has
    the best car physics of any sim out there?? Good.

Well... no. You have to have both of course. F1RS is a much better simulation of being in a race. But it is not a driving simulation. CPR is a driving simulation as well as GPL. F1RS is a racing simulation, as the box says. It's way fun and you'd better run out and get that PII 400 with V2 before August anyway. :-)

--

mark

F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.

    So does this mean I don't have to bother upgrading my 3D card to 4MB
    from 2MB just to play F1RS and just continue with GP2 which still has
    the best car physics of any sim out there?? Good.